suspension seats?

[BA_DirtDriver]

We have talked about this before regarding accidents and back injuries but not with regards to vision and general comfort. Most sanctioning bodies do not allow suspension style seats. The new generation of kevlar/carbon fiber carcass seats with aero foam padding from the literature I have read should be better in all aspects. This is the tech used in ejector seats and the seats on the shuttle. All the world rally cars run these type of seats. What I have noticed is sometimes at high speeds the suspension type seats almost seem to hit a natural frequency that makes it hard to see. Some TT teams I believe have switched to these type seats. Any comments on the effects on vision between the two different seat types.

Bret

I think the argument for the safety of these style seats is probably justification enough. Keep the spine in place and absorb the energy. While suspension seats offer some cush in the mild bumps the don't maintain the spines position for the big impacts.

[John_Bitting]

"I think the argument for the safety of these style seats is probably justification enough. Keep the spine in place and absorb the energy. While suspension seats offer some cush in the mild bumps the don't maintain the spines position for the big impacts. "

This is a very valid statement. Although I have no research or hard facts to back it up, I do know that Alans broken back, Vic Bruckmanns, Brandon Piorek, Larry Ragland etc all came while sitting in top off line "suspension" seats from some of the top manufacturers of Off-Road seats. Most of the big teams have now switched to Sparco seats for safety purposes. I heard Ragland swears by them after his accident in the trailblazer at which he rolled at a high rate of speed only to walk away.

[Brian Mapes]

This is a pretty good topic to cover. I have been thinking about seats and what makes a good seat for offroading for a while now. Why would a sparco non-suspension seat be better for offroading than a suspension seat. I think that one reason that they might be better is because they hold you in tighter, right? They dont let your body move side to side as much. Does anyone use the Mastercraft 3G seat? It looks like a cross between sparcos and all the rest of off road seats. I sat in them at the off road expo last year and they felt really good and didnt allow me to move around much. To me that is the seat I would use becuase it has a little bit of play but has a lot of side to side protection. What is your guy's input?

[AP255]

To me a seat is a very important safety device. Of equal importance as my helmet and fire suit. Most seats are going to be comfortable while driving along at any race pace. What I look for is how will it perform in a BIG crash. How will it protect me? What seat will keep my body secure and minimize any potential injury. Think about it. When you buy a seat do sit in it and think about how comfortable it is? Are you spending any time thinking about how comfortable it is and also how safe it is? I have not found a better seat than what SPARCO is making right now. You couldn't give me or pay me to race in a suspention seat. Not even an option.

28

[pphat]

Which Sparco are you running?
P

[pciscott]

I do not agree with Alan on this one, I run the Mastercraft suspension seats and have them rebuilt every few races. I agree a suspension seat that is worn out and stretched out puts your body in a bad posture and will make your back hurt at the end of a day, but with a freshly done up suspension seat I feel great after any race and have taken many hard shots in both a Protruck and the Trophy Truck. Most race preps overlook the seat and this is were people could get hurt, if your seat is worn out pull it out and send it in to be rebuilt today! Alan show me some data to back up why you will not run the suspension seats, or we can discuss it over a couple of cold ones brother. I like spending my money with companies that are in our industry and until I see some real Data that a seat is unsafe I will put my 15 years of racing experience on the suspension seat. Congratulations on Primm Alan, great race. We parked our Hot Rod after some problems on the first lap; we hope to use the time to be better prepared for Baja where we will attempt to steel your luck. Better keep an eye on your Hula girl because at this point I will try anything, even kidnapping.

[AP255]

The SPARCO Pro 2000 is a great seat along with the Evo series. Scott, at the end of a race in a new suspention seat or a SPARCO seat I agree that you will feal fine. What concerns me is the BIG crash and how the seat protects me. I would love to have some data comparing the crash results from both seats. Unfortunately no one has done such a test that I know of. It would be interesting to see a test that showed the energy absorbtion of a susspention seat and its return effect on your body. I am no expert in this area at all. What concerns me with a suspention action in a BIG crash is not the initial load and absorbtion but the space that is then created. That space let alone any effect the return energy has is what concerns me. Is it creating additional and diret whiplash to my spine? How does this compare to clapping your hands? When your hands are together you create less energy vs. when they are an inch or two apart. Again what is the return effect? A suspention seat company was very nice to offer me free seats for my race truck. I chose to purchase SPARCO seats because I believe that they are safer.

28

[BA_DirtDriver]

Alan, That is the Kevlar /carbon fiber version of the sparco seat right? It is important to note that there is a huge difference between the top of the line seats which are carbon fiber and the lower end models which are just fiberglass. The fiberglass carcassas has appreciably no elongation before failure and should not even be considered as a racing seat. Some of the seat makers make the "race" seat and the general seat look exactly the same and this is by far not the case. The carbon fiber seats by Sparco and Cobra are easy to tell the difference since they are in the $1,500 - $1,600 dollar price range as opposed to $500 - $600. The suspension seats let your body move to far in a big impact the suspension seat lets your but move down and then forward even with a sub stap because as you go lower the sub gets looser then your hips can move forward under the lap and sub belt. Scott you point out the wost case when the suspension seat lets you go so far that your butt hits on to the frame or the skid plate. I would guess that is waht might have happened to the 12 car drivers. Don't get me wrong I have the seats that 50% of the racers have but with all the injuries I have started to question my thinking and the technology altogether. I'm convinced that the safety is greater in these seats my real question was regarding the dampening of the high frequency vibration. Is that any better? Maybe you just don't want to give away some competitive advantage Alan. I am going to race class 1 so don't worry about me and Scott said he wouldn't read this post anymore. So its ok.


Bret

[jeff]

Scott - Your post would suggest you feel that SPARCO isn't "in" the industry? Am I reading it wrong? If not, why do you feel that way?

Aloha

[SLR]

I would look @ the history of crashes and the seats used...
I agree with the Prep on the seat and feel that a seat is a very important safety item. I have not ran a race in a SPARCO but know allot of the big boy that are concerned about safety swear by them...

What does the mounting of a SPARCO look like??? I know when I was in shep's PR he ran those and they had a loose fit to the chassis, but when you had the belts on it was good to go...

The attached Photo is PRIMM and Brandon's seat. He is lucky it wasn't his back that got BENT......

[FABRICATOR]

IMHO there is a lot more to it than just the seat. If you sit there like a hunk of meat, then the seat really is doing it all. Personally, as long as I am conscious, I would never assume that the seat alone is going to save my back on the hard hits. How the seat fits, and the ability for the occupants to be able to "hunker-down" when needed can easily make the difference between injuring your back or not. A lot depends on if your feet are planted somewhere and what kind of pedal set up you have. The distance between your shoulders and the steering wheel is also important for upper body support and affects how you will fit the seat at the time of need. Old dirt bikes and flat bottom boats will teach you some of this real quick. How many ankle-pivot throttles are out there??? Many builders/racers pay no attention to this and/or don't know better. That's why some drivers will think a vehicle feels perfect, yet in the very same vehicle, others will get back injuries. And drivers's that get back injuries tend to keep getting back injuries. Use the best seat that you can afford, but no seat can do it all. As far as why some get hurt and some never do, it's our expierences more than the strength of our backs that make the most difference.

[fishd00d]

I have just standard Mastercraft Suspension seats in The Piece and when I hit really hard at the Tuff Truck event the seat went down far enough so that my spine inpacted on the seat bracket. I could not move for a few seconds and it was quite scary. I have since moved the seat mount bar from under it but still IMO the suspension seats let you move to much, especially in a regular truck where the floorboard/seat mounts arent to far below your butt!

[AP255]

It is easy to add a carbon/kevlar wrap around the fiberglass seat to make it stronger. I do not use the stock foam. Found a better one that we are playing with.

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[BA_DirtDriver]

Just found this air-force biodynamics testing database( http://www.biodyn.wpafb.af.mil/) sorry don't know how to make it clicky. Maybe one of you aspiring techies or PHD candidates out there can sort through the data and return with the cliff notes version for the rest of us. Heck our government probably only spent $5 or $6 hundred million in testing to compile all of that data. I found it by searching for Confor foam which I know is used in the current ejector seats.

Bret

[partybarge_pilot]

http://www.biodyn.wpafb.af.mil/

Heres one the did on different foams http://www.biodyn.wpafb.af.mil/MoreGenStyInfo.asp?pn=StudyInfo&sn=200001

Unfortunantly it doesn't give resulte unless you are a member, have to work on that.....

[partybarge_pilot]

OK, now it's way past My bedtime and My brain hurts.

Everything you ever wanted to know but were afriad to ask http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA218437 It's 112MB so be patient. PG's 126-127 are really good for seatbelt positioning. PG 198, who would have thought.......

[johnnyweb]

i dont get the point of your picture. looks to me like just a bad mounting job. the photo of the truck in your profile picture is bad a$$ though!! looks familiar!!

[ShaneR]

SCCA for Rally or Road Race will only accept FIA approved and tested seats. The Sparco seats are FIA approved and tested, I couldn't find any of the suspension style seats that have been tested by FIA, so the data is out there for some seats but not all of them.

[SLR]

Ya, I'll relay your message to PT...

1 of the 4 tabs bent...Hence, " He is lucky it wasn't his back that got BENT" Also the fact that it has 4-5" 7/16 bolts and the seat tab failed... I was thinking they used those long bolts as a fuseable link??? Brandon weighs a buck-80. Ray 220 and his seat tabs where straight....

Your truck... Ya we used to work that thing in Glamis...BBBaaDDD