Power Steering pump

[John_Bitting]

I need a bracket to mount my Lee power steering pump to my sbc. Where do most people buy them from? Experiences good or bad with a particular brand. Need to buy ASAP.

Thank you

[castlefab]

John, try CV Products, or call Mckenzies.
Jon

[frankh]

John I don't know where you are at on the engine,but before you look just for a mount for the pump you need to look at the whole pulley system. Where and how many belts. Look at it as a system or you will have a ton of belts and parts you can't use. I use the head mount from speedway.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/asp/strBase_List./hilt./source.2191/base_no.91032904/str_base_no.000%2DCATALOG+RACE%2C106FC300%2C607100 30%2C6172013%2C6173069%2C6174800%2C910154%2C910322 08%2C91032500%2C91032875%2C91032876%2C91032877%2C9 1032902%2C91032904%2C91032910%2C91032912%2C9103291 5%2C91032950%2C91044010%2C91315925%2C/header_title.Race+Products%2DPower+Steering/page_name.prod%5Flist%5Fdisplay%2Easp/search_type.L2%7E177/search_option./deptsearch./deptSearch_id.2/dept_id.L2%7E177/dept_id_p.2/dept_name./dept_name_p.Race+Products/ShowImages.yes/sq.0/cont.1/intPgNo.1/redirect./qx/product.htm

[Dave_G]

John,
You should seriously consider powering all your accessories with a serpentine belt. I've seen that done somewhere before... http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[frankh]

I have always been a fan of a two belt system. Crank-water-alt with one and crank-water-PS with the other. When you are in the middle of nowhere you can make it back without a alt or PS but you won't go far with out the water pump. Also when you are in race it may be the differance on making it to a pit to get a new belt or having to get out of the car. last year in Laughlin Ron Brant was in the hunt then 1/2 way through his last lap he through the serpentine belt and had to stop and put the spare on. If it was only one belt of the two he never would have stopped.

[partybarge_pilot]

Frank, pre-runner, not race car.......

Serpintine belt needs revers rotation water pump. things to keep in mind.

[frankh]

yea I know, but lets say you are out playing in barstow and you loose a belt. You pull over and pull the spare out and put it on and B.S with all your friends maybe have a couple. Then you jump in your truck and take off. then 15 mile down the road it does it again. now what, well if you have a two belt system that most like cost the same as a Serpintine system you just drive home without PS. A pain in the butt yes but you are still home. With the Serpintine system you are stuck there waiting for your friend to find a parts store open to get a new belt and most like something else (idler ect.) just to make it home. That is all I was tring to pass on.

[bajaruner11]

Yep, in off-road a two belt system is the way to go! No but's about it. I'm not saying a serpentine won't work, it's just that sometimes more options will save your day in the middle of nowhere.

[ntsqd]

While I can appreciate the bene's of a two (+) belt system, given the option I would go with a serp belt IF an OE bracket set for that engine is available. B/c of the width of the belt, alignment is critical and the odds of getting it right in a home shop are not great. There is a reason most serp belt accessory brackets are large machined castings.

In my observation, poly-V belts do not tend to get pitched nearly as often as V-belts. So it could be a case where you need redundancy with v-belts b/c either they are not as robust or b/c the alignment of the brackets is not as good.

Not all serp belt systems use a reverse rotation H2O pump, just most of them.

[Dave_G]

Frank,
I have worked extensively on serpentine setups and they are very complicated when it comes to setting them up properly. Most of the setups I've seen on rear engine buggies and sand toys are marginal at best. Some of the V-belt stuff has it's share of problems also. I've seen V-belts suck up rocks and take the belt out only to have the damaged belt proceed to take out all the other belts including the drive belt for the oil pump which in some cases kills a motor all together. Just watch some of the V-belts on a TT motor some time while on a dyno at 7500 rpm under a load. Sometimes you'll see the v-belts get up out out of the grooves almost 1/4 of an inch in some cases because of the centrifugal forces involved. Having a constant tensioner solves some of that as well as allows you to pass objects throught the belt train without derailing the belt. In a forward mounted enginge like in a TT shoveling up rocks and gravel into the motor is a constant problem and the serpentine handles that job much better than V-belts. The Enduro TT has ran a serpentine belt since day one and they have never had any problems with that system.

[partybarge_pilot]

Speaking of shoveling dirt, every time I pull a drysump belt off the truck it has little rocks punched through it making little blisters on the back side. Scarry! For the PB2 I'm running the DS pump off the cam like a sprint car just remote mounting the electric water pump this time.

[PBR]

just like dave said it's nice to have a tensioner on the belt at all times... my buddy has this system on his hotrod and it is very sano.
http://www.marchperf.com/

[Dave_G]

Ollie,
Some of their stuff looks pretty good. The only exception is that it looks like a few of their setups don't run a constant tensioner and some do. Another thing to look for is how many degrees of wrap around the crank pulley since it's doing all the driving load. The more degrees of wrap the more power transfer to the accessories and less chance for belt slippage. And that goes for the pulleys on all the accessories too. I typically like to see 180 degees or more of wrap on any accessory pulley. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hoeker]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of shoveling dirt, every time I pull a drysump belt off the truck it has little rocks punched through it making little blisters on the back side. Scarry! For the PB2 I'm running the DS pump off the cam like a sprint car just remote mounting the electric water pump this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i looked into this for my CORR truck but decided the risks and cost wasn't worth it. i even tested dual electric water pumps to see if they could handle the job, duals could do it, but if the voltage drops below 10 volts they shut down, made the risk not worth the gains. in the last 2 seasons i have had no oil pump drive belt problems so now i have no desire to look at it closer.

back on the PS belt, howe told me nobody makes a universal bracket for thier big pump, the ones in the web links were circle track pump brackets, not even close to what i run so check with lee before you buy john.

[ntsqd]

Driving it off the cam is actually not desirable. Sprinters do it for compactness of lay-out and no belts, not b/c it's ideal. The pump's drive load puts a twist in the cam. Unless the cam lobe timing is sequentially offset to bring the timing back to where it should be, you'll have valve events all over the map. And that will change depending on pumping load. Hey! Variable cam timing.......

This is one of the biggest problems with putting a big wet sump pump on any rear drive cam-in-block V8 (like a 392 Hemi or an SBC). If it is a spur gear pump it will translate chatter back into the drive system which has been demonstrated to affect Ign timing on SBC's. The other reason Sprints can do it is b/c they have no flywheel or flexplate. If you need either you'd better be looking at putting it back at the rear mounted transaxle.

[BAPerf]

I might be off base here, but I had a question about the twisting camshaft post...

If the pump is driven off the front of the cam, and the lobes oare on the back of the cam, (belt or chain drive in the standard location), how would the cam twist from the forces created by the pump?

If the pump were driven off the back of the cam (i.e. Nissan stadium trucks), I could see this as a potential problem, albeit a very small one. In fact there are quite a few OEM aplications that drive a pump directly off the cam.

Sorry for the re-hash,

Brian

[frankh]

I think it runs off the back of the cam. I could see the load thing after using a big drill motor to pre-oil it and see the load when it start pumping is pretty amazing. But unrelated I have had a oil pump on a VW lock up and in turn stop the cam so fast it broke it right after the gear.

[FABRICATOR]

The serpentine belt system is great but can be a science in itself. Everything must be very rigidly mounted and well aligned. Pully belt wrap and facing must be matched to each and every drive. Tensioner type, location, and mounting is critical. If you are slightly modifying a stock system you will probably be OK. If you are designing one from scratch it must be thoroughly engineered with no mistakes.

[ntsqd]

Frank's got it. Not only do Sprinters run the PS pump off the back of the cam, they also run a huge version of a speedo cable from off the back of the PS pump back to the fuel injector pump located in the fuel cell. Usually the dry sump oil pump is direct coupled to the cam and bolted to the timing cover. Then the H2O pump is direct driven off of the crankshaft snout. Ta-Da!! No belts anywhere.

Footnote: Expect to see fewer and fewer accessories that are engine driven on new vehicles. It will come down to a large alternator and nothing else. All power accessories and pumps will be electrically driven.

[BAPerf]

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, but thanks for the update!

I've seen the drysump pumps mounted to the front cover, water pumps mounted to the front cover, and the typical way of mounting the power steering pumps in midgets/ sprintcars (off the back of the dry-sump pump). I guess I'll have to go see some of the SCRA (oops, not SCRA anymore...) cars a little more closely. As for the cable driven Waterman pumps (fuel), I didn't know that they were widely used, I thought that the standard oil pump mount was still more widely used.

Again, thanks for the updates.

Brian

[ntsqd]

Most of my exposure to Sprinters is what ever they run at the Ventura Mud Bowl.

[DJDIRTWORKS]

I WAS READING THIS STRING, AND HAVE THIS TO SHARE WITH YOU- I RUN A SERPINTINE SYSTEM BECAUSE AS YOU HAVE SAID THE CONSTANT TENSION ON THE BELT STOPS IT FROM "GROWING"ALSO THEY ARE USUALLY EASY TO CHANGE WITH ONLY A PRY BAR OR RATCHET NEEDED-AND PROVIDED YOU KNOW HOW TO ROUTE THE BELT-CHANGES ARE VERY FAST.(NO TRYING TO ADJUST TENSION AND TIGHTEN BOLTS)
THERE IS ALSO MORE SURFACE AREA PROVIDED BY THE GROOVES.
ANY WAY, ALTHOUGH I'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, I ALWAYS CARRY TWO SPARE BELTS-JUST IN CASE. NO PROBLEMS, RIGHT?
THATS WHAT I THOUGHT UNTIL MY ALTERNATOR SEIZED DURING A 90+MPH RUN LITTERALLY 100 MILES FROM NOWHERE. WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT RUNNING WITHOUT P.S. IS RIGHT ON-YOU CAN GET BY WITHOUT IT-BUT NOT THAT WATER PUMP!! AND WITH NO CHARGING SYSTEM, YOUR BATTERY DRAINS VERY FAST FROM STARTING THE MOTOR, RUNNING AS FAR AS YOU CAN BEFORE THE MOTOR OVERHEATS(A SUPPRISINGLY SHORT DISTANCE IN THE DESERT ),COASTING TO A STOP, AND TRYING TO JURY RIG A SERPINTINE BELT TO BYBASS THE SEIZED ALT.
I MADE ABOUT 4 MILES IN 3 HOURS! LUCK WAS WITH ME AND A RANCHER OUT CHECKING HIS WATER TANKS FOUND ME ABOUT DARK AND DRUG ME ABOUT 20 MILES TO WHERE SOMEONE COULD GET TO ME(BTW-THAT'S A FUN TOW WITH NO P.S., A 2-TO-1 QUICKNER, A 4 FOOT LONG TOW CHAIN AND NO LIGHTS IN THE DARK BEHIND A RANCHER IN A HURRY TO GET HOME)
I TRYED BAILING WIRING A BELT SHORT ENOUGH TO JUST RUN THE WATER PUMP, AS WELL AS DUCT TAPE(WHAT A MESS!!), TIE DOWN STRAPS, AND AIR CRAFT WIRE-THE BEST ATTEMPT STAYED ON THE MOTOR ABOUT 200 YARDS.
WELL, BUILDING A NEW "BELT" GAVE ME SOMETHING TO DO WHILE WAITING FOR THE MOTOR TO COOL.
I DONT KNOW IF IT WORKS WITH SERPINTINES, BUT SOME ONE LATER TOLD ME THAT PANTY HOSE WILL WORK IN A PINCH. I WASN'T WEARING ANY OR I MIGHT HAVE TRIED THAT!
WELL, I GUESS WHAT I LEARNED IS THAT NOTHING IS TOTALLY BULLET PROOF, AND SOMETIMES, DESPITE YOUR BEST PREPARATIONS, THINGS JUST BREAK THAT YOU CAN'T FORSEE.
I COULD HAVE LIMPED OUT ON A V-BELT SYSTEM, THOUGH....

ONE OTHER THING- I CAN'T THANK THAT RANCHER ENOUGH. REMEMBER WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE NEEDING HELP-IT COULD BE YOU NEEDING HELP NEXT TIME...

[frankh]

First it is hard to read with caps on. But I'm sure the first thing you did is get a couple of spare belt at different lengths. One that bypasses alt and one that bypass a PS. Also It takes no tools to bump a v-belt on. If it is the front belt you need a screwdriver to bump the back belt off to get the new front one on then you have to replace the front one too. I would bet I can replace the belt before you remember how to route the new serpentine. There are good and bad point for both systems.

[bajaruner11]

Really, if the absolute best belt system is what you want then an HTD drive system would hands down win that one. However as I said before in the middle of BFE and in Baja a V-belt is the only practical option. You can't always find a Serpentine belt in every corner of the world but you can create with a little imagination (panty hose, large O-ring, bicycle tube, rubber bands) a v belt set up. The choice is yours.

[ntsqd]

Have to take issue with saying the HTD belt is the best. Ignoring ability, or lack therof, to jimmy-rigg something to get you home, what about dirtclods & debris? If the debris is small, the pulley teeth will errode, but it won't throw the belt. Once the teeth errode enough they will strip teeth off the belt. Ask me how I know this if you want an earfull. If the CL to CL dist exceeds a rather small number then that system needs 2 fences. Fences capture crud, which easily throws the belt or strips teeth. It's not an accident that dirt track Sprint Cars use a direct drive instead of a belt to drive their dry sump pumps.
The only cog belt drive I would remotely consider using in a dirt environ is an Eagle PD.

The best belt drive is to not have one. Everything else is a compromise. Find the one you're most comfortable with making field repairs on and use it.

[Stephen]

How about a tensioner on the back of a v-belt? It's not common but it would solve some of the belt control problems at high RPM's.

[ntsqd]

We use a Pinto cam belt tensioner on the Dyno to get belt tension on some water pump belts (no alt). It's just used as a fixed idler, no spring driven tension.
I want to say I've seen someone like Smokey Yunick advise the use of guide rollers on really long belt runs.

[Kritter]

with a v belt you just have the spare already in place behind the pullies...when one goes, you put the spare in place, and guide it on with a screwdriver and bumping the motor...easy money compared to a serpentine.

I know when I change belts as preventative maintince I sit there for 10 minutes figuring out how to route the dam serpentine belt on these new trucks

[Dave_G]

[ QUOTE ]
with a v belt you just have the spare already in place behind the pullies...when one goes, you put the spare in place

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the way I did it on my airplane for the alternator. I just have a spare tied up behind the fly wheel just in case. Ever try to get a belt around a prop? http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ntsqd]

"There I was, flat on my back......."

LOL

[TumbleBug]

[ QUOTE ]
I know when I change belts as preventative maintince I sit there for 10 minutes figuring out how to route the dam serpentine belt on these new trucks

[/ QUOTE ]

The easy way to figure out the belt routing is use a marks-a-lot, grease pencil or paint, and draw it on the under side of your hood. That way it never gets lost, and all you have to do is look up. You can even draw alternative routings for shorter belts if the alt, AC or power steering foul up so you can still have the water pump running. Carry a couple of belts for the alternate lengths and the original length, and you'll always get home. NO problem, no brainer. Just a thought... worked for me. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kritter]

there is a sticker wiht the routing...still a PIA.