Offroading in Baja is causing problems !

[klaus]

If we want to keep racing in Mexico we need to play by the rules.

Just yesterday there was an incident in San Matias where a caddle gate did NOT get closed after a group went through. 85 cows consequently left the fenced area. Cows ended up on the highway and right now around 35 cows have not made it back to its rightful owners yet. This is a serious problem that affects everyone racing and playing in Baja.

Ranchers generally like us there and enjoy watching the races just like everyone else, but if its costing them problems expect to not be welcome anymore. This incident got caused by an American guided tour company not by a race team prerunning. One individual can very easily ruin it for an entire sport.

[OldStroppeTeam]

Is it one of our fellow RDC users that we can BBQ on line ???

"THEY" are the "trained professionals". If they cannot act professionally, then MAYBE they need to find another Profession ????? McD's is always lookin for help !!

[klaus]

I just learned that this incident will cause the race course to go onto the highway in that section. This is a decision of Hector Sarabia the principal for the Ojos Negros area and SCORE.

Expect to see course changes and updates by SCORE.

A big problem for the local ranchers is that prerunning starts early as Race maps get distributed early over the internet.

[offroadracer516]

Stupid people how much of the course will be changed :(

[BAJAK5]

Not good!!!!!!!!

[la2baja]

UUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! How @$#**% hard is it to get off your A** and close a gate behind you! It is an absolute must, that we all get our acts together and take care of these peoples property. It is because these people are so very cool that we get to race down there. Our race has to be changed onto the highway because this Monkey blew it but honestly the bigger picture is a family has lost live stock due to our mistake. I don't know what cattle costs but I bet it's not cheap and the time it took and is still taking to find them isn't exactly free...... We aren't talking about rich Texas cattle billionaires. (if there are any) These people are just getting by with what little they have.

P.S. I hope no Texans, cattle or billionaires were hurt by this reply..

[Salvador]

If we want to keep racing in Mexico we need to play by the rules.

Just yesterday there was an incident in San Matias where a caddle gate did NOT get closed after a group went through. 85 cows consequently left the fenced area. Cows ended up on the highway and right now around 35 cows have not made it back to its rightful owners yet. This is a serious problem that affects everyone racing and playing in Baja.

Ranchers generally like us there and enjoy watching the races just like everyone else, but if its costing them problems expect to not be welcome anymore. This incident got caused by an American guided tour company not by a race team prerunning. One individual can very easily ruin it for an entire sport.


If the B1000 was in Mexicali, you shouldnt have this problem, Because you only have DEZERT to race, not mountain and ranches

[JL Gomez]

Salvador, good point

But maybe for the same reason, the Baja 1000 doesn't start in Mexicali, because starting in Ensenada, We can have beaches, mountains, desert, sierra, sand, silt, etc

[movindirt]

I think if the responsible party can be identified then they should be fined. The amount should be the loss to the rancher and the rancher should get the money. Why is it that some people feel that they need not respect what belongs to others. Have some respect..

[uffda1309]

If we want to keep racing in Mexico we need to play by the rules.

Just yesterday there was an incident in San Matias where a caddle gate did NOT get closed after a group went through. 85 cows consequently left the fenced area. Cows ended up on the highway and right now around 35 cows have not made it back to its rightful owners yet. This is a serious problem that affects everyone racing and playing in Baja.

Ranchers generally like us there and enjoy watching the races just like everyone else, but if its costing them problems expect to not be welcome anymore. This incident got caused by an American guided tour company not by a race team prerunning. One individual can very easily ruin it for an entire sport.

Do we know which guided tour co. it was?

[scoobs]

Where is San Matias?

[Jefe_Negro]

:cool: Man...

Maybe next time... a Pinche Mad Ranchero will shoot someone who forgot to close a gate.
Shooting practice... aim at the ***** so it doesn't leave a scar!

Oralé Bato.

[partybarge_pilot]

Was it left open or did it desintigrate? A lot of these gates aren't of the best construction and tend to fall apart if used a lot. There were two gates between Simpsons and Rancho Cyote that were in pieces when We were pre-running for the 500. Carring some bailing wire would help but if the stakes are broken theres not much you can do.

On the bright side, at least they made the changes now instead of trying to stick it Sal 3HR's before start time.......

[klaus]

Update, the course may not change (RM400 btw) as things are beeing worked on as we speak. If this all pans out everyone would own a big thank you to Hector, who by the way is the co-rider of Eric Fisher.

[@LFREDO]

Do you really want the race to go to MEXICALI?? 100 dgrees., DUST, SAND AND ROCKS.:confused:

Bring the race ot TIJUANA. More HOTELS, Mayor is better, more things to do, more restaurants etc etc etc. better city overall to hold such a big event.

[wetmonkey]

Do you really want the race to go to MEXICALI?? 100 dgrees., DUST, SAND AND ROCKS.


you're right. what kind of desert race would that be?

[Chris_Wilson]

Klaus, are you providing offical SCORE info from Sal? Or are you passing along
info from his guys that may or may not be official nor final nor approved by Sal?

It might be best to actually ask Sal, if you have not, before posting of a course change.

Just my two cents. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here.

[TheWebWheeler]

Well I hope nobody finds these Cattle The Hard way during the Race....http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/disgust.gif

[Vtr_Racing]

Close the dang fences. Those ranchers are nice enough to let use ride on the land we could at least show some respect. If you can, when you prerun, bring some bailing wire and repair the fence as best you can if its not in working order. Leave a note for the next riders and or the rancher. Rounding up all that cattle isnt easy. Maybe get up a collection and buy him a couple of cows or whatever they were....

As far as Texas goes, no offense taken, I am no where near a billionaire,LOL :eek:

[gwm]

Back when the 500 went over the mountains from Guadalupe to Ojos my brother and I would pit for McM up top every year. The ranchero up there liked us and he was pretty cool. We always cleaned up, left him food and water, and one year we even cleared a bunch of dead oak for him. But you could tell he didn't like strangers and was very wary of people crossing his property. I've always wondered if problems like this (not closing gates) is why the course doesn't go up there anymore.

[bajafox]

Salvador, good point

But maybe for the same reason, the Baja 1000 doesn't start in Mexicali, because starting in Ensenada, We can have beaches, mountains, desert, sierra, sand, silt, etc

True, but Mexicali has better strip clubs...

[JL Gomez]

Jajajaja you're right Bajafox

[baja619]

Tiajuana....


Where in the hell would the course go through

All highway/road sections to the storm drain heading inland w/ massive trophy spectator jumps, whoops sections, and other obsticle, giant piles of trash. hahahaha

[DRZ_Motorsports_119]

Tiajuana....


Where in the hell would the course go through

All highway/road sections to the storm drain heading inland w/ massive trophy spectator jumps, whoops sections, and other obsticle, giant piles of trash. hahahaha
Dude believe me the rumor is that the 06 Baja 1000 is TJ - La Paz, and about the race course Tijuana has a lot to offer, in Hotels, restaurants, Malls, Airport, etc...and i forgot Contingency in Ave.Revolucion. And about the race course easy the aquaduct, and La presa from la presa to Valle de las palmas or Cantamar....etc... And about the piles of trash ahhhhhhh i don't think so. ohhhhhhhhhhhh and the strip bars first class..jejejee

Just My 1 peso.

DRZ Motorsports 119

[Kritter]

Tiajuana....


Where in the hell would the course go through



bloated K-9s on the road for whoops...

[PLS]

Dude believe me the rumor is that the 06 Baja 1000 is TJ - La Paz, and about the race course Tijuana has a lot to offer, in Hotels, restaurants, Malls, Airport, etc...and i forgot Contingency in Ave.Revolucion. And about the race course easy the aquaduct, and La presa from la presa to Valle de las palmas or Cantamar....etc... And about the piles of trash ahhhhhhh i don't think so. ohhhhhhhhhhhh and the strip bars first class..jejejee

Just My 1 peso.

DRZ Motorsports 119

Friends of mine in TJ still talk about the last time the 1000 started there. Hearing the cars down in the riverbed, and walking down to watch the start. Gringos drinking beer everywhere!

[slimjim]

Im pretty sure the last time the 1000 started in tj was 1995 or maybe it was 1996. I was there either way. It is awesome! It is really easy for the casual or first time spectators to enjoy it. It injects new fans from the US into the sport.

[scoobs]

I thought it was 98?

[klaus]

sux that a serious threat gets hi-jacked into "my city is better then yours".
People, learn how to start a new threat.

[prerunner1499]

sux that a serious threat gets hi-jacked into "my city is better then yours".
People, learn how to start a new threat.

Klaus Cant you just delete the parts of the thread when they start to get off topic an post a WHY its been done warning? Heck its your site man!

Anyway,,, back on tipic,,,,close the damn gate after you go through. Follow the rule, If it was closed, close it behind you. Dont just expect the last one in your prerunning party to know they need to close it.. Tell them!!!!!!.
Just because its Mexico does not mean "It dont matter" Nut up and close the damn gates people.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SPORT!!!!!!!!

[powerbox_builder]

Everybody needs to follow this rule: If the gate has a sign on it, close it. If you just passed somebody on the course a mile back you still have to close the gate! I see this every race, as soon as one guy drops the ball, everybody that follows assumes that the guys behind him will close it. This goes on all day untill the sun goes down and the gate is still open. The only exception is if you can confirm (by radio) that the last guy in your group closes the gate. I notice if the gate is closed when people get to it there is a higher probability that they will close it. If it is down, even with a sign, I bet more than half of the people drive/ride right through.

[Gabriel Garcia]

Ok mexican´s guys the post talking about the problem of San Matias, not if you wanna the Baja 1000 in Tijuana or Mexicali, like say Klaus is most important in this moment the actual situation in Baja, no only in Ensenada, in all the peninsula, because if you pass for one ranch, and them you dont close any gates you are open, that is bad, in the case of the people of San Matias are the 85 cows free in the highway and another points.
I pass this info to Klaus, and i was thinking about the problem, for make something for trying to stop that, and the company involved in that problem are Wide Open, i dont have any problems in saw that, because this tours are the principal problem in the mind of the people, not only in Ensenada, asken this to the people of San Felipe, Wide Open have closed the gates in that place, for his bad behavior in the past years, and if this case dont have a quickly solution, in a future the Baja races are in danger not only in Ensenada, in other points near to this places, i will open to any commentarys about my post, thanks for all your help Klaus.

[klaus]

Looks like wide open lived up to their name

[Will_Higman]

If Wide Open was smart they would build some nice 4130 gates for the ranchers whose land they race across. A little human touch goes a long way in Baja!

I know this is a continual problem for Score’s image and I hope things will change for the better. No one would want to go on a tour if it was not associated with “racing the Baja”.

Sal should get a royalty for every tour until quid pro quo takes place.

Will Higman

[TheWebWheeler]

You know I've been thinking about this....
& was this years course completely changed & shortened due to problems we've had?:confused:

[fashionbiff]

build some nice 4130 gates for the ranchers whose land they race across.


What about making it part of the prerun? Have SCORE put a group of volunters together and go and build new gates and set new posts. Before anyone can start prerunning. You get caught prerunning make it a 500 dollar fine or something paid to SCORE for what ever they want to use it for???
If it takes a week off the prerun than maybe more people will step up and help. Of course there is funding this, tacking 20 bucks onto entry is probalby not gonna cover it, mayge get some of the big expousure teams to help out. But then there is the human factor too of not closing the D@MN GATES.

Out of the Question or doable????
Just my .02 Steven

[Vtr_Racing]

If Wide Open was smart they would build some nice 4130 gates for the ranchers whose land they race across. A little human touch goes a long way in Baja!

Will Higman

Sounds like a good idea....

[klaus]

$500.00 is nothing for most teams... but making you start last in your group would make for a nice penalty.

[MikeAdams]

If people won't shut a gate made out of sticks and bailing wire, they won't shut one made out of 4130. I think ignorance of how serious it is for the farmers is why they aren't getting closed...it just seems like this is a common problem every year.

[bajafox]

Anybody up for publishing a new book? "Prerunning in Baja for Dummies"

[OldStroppeTeam]

There have been countless books, poems and "cowboy" songs about closing gates and other items of "trail ettiquite" All the writing, singin,cryin , etc will not keep RUDE people from being RUDE !!!... Their parents did not do the world any favors unleashing these heathens on the world.... The best we can do is tell as many people as we can who the offenders are, then let nature take it's course...kinda reverse natural selection !!!!!

[bajafox]

ORRR for any English speaking prerunners that already went through, leave a sign in plain English "Close the gate, violators will be shot by ranchers" Rudeness doesn't stand a chance when it comes down to a life or death situation.:D

[gwm]

Anybody up for publishing a new book? "Prerunning in Baja for Dummies"

You are assuming they can read.

[negro3030]

[QUOTE=Will_H]If Wide Open was smart they would build some nice 4130 gates for the ranchers whose land they race across. A little human touch goes a long way in Baja!

one of the best suggestions I have ever read, great thinking Will H, now we should all help to make this a reality, this is where we all race, we all use the land, lets give back to Baja a little of what is has given so many of us...I challenge the whole forum to create an idea or plan to solve this, I am open to making donations if need be...

[OldStroppeTeam]

[QUOTE=Will_H]one of the best suggestions I have ever read, great thinking Will H, now we should all help to make this a reality, this is where we all race, we all use the land, lets give back to Baja a little of what is has given so many of us...I challenge the whole forum to create an idea or plan to solve this, I am open to making donations if need be...

The trickest gates in the world will not cause RUDE people to get out of their cars and CLOSE THEM. The post and wire type gates have been confining cattle since the invention of barbed wire. Even in the old Cowboy days there were range wars (see above comments about being shot by the rancher !!) over gates left open!!

JUST CLOSE THE DAMN GATES

IT's that simple..

[negro3030]

OldStroppeTeam, you´re right! and when you´re right you´re right!

Unfortunately you are correct sir, unless we invent a self closing and locking mechanism, the gates no matter how soffisticated can and will be left open by ignorant people!!! WHAT A SHAME!!!

[kevin bedrock graves]

maybe sal's going to have to take a page out of casey's book prefun run we all go on the same day or days i know it would make for a long day but they'll only see us once and sal could run clean up to make sure all those gates get closed to make sure all his people are happy. this is his livelyhood maybe he should be a little more visible during the prerunning.

[la2baja]

How about combining all the ideas? Spring load newly built gates so you have to hold it open to let the car/truck through but it slams shut on it's own. A group of guys equipt with all needed go down there BBQ and camp over a few nights while mending fences and making gates Gringo proof. I'll sign up right now. Sounds damn fun!

Combine the new gate fun run with the Ranchers shooting idiots who don't close them until the new gates are up rule and we have saved baja!

[deleted]

I got a better idea... CLOSE THE GATES.. There have been races in Baja for 40 something years now. Gates have been closed for forty years... There is no reason that can’t continue to be closed. This is not something that we need to turn into a 6th grade science experiment... There are so many gates in Baja that are held up by 2 sticks, I seriously doubt all these self closing gates, spring loaded gates, and other brilliant ideas would work on 5% of the gates down there.

[negro3030]

geez, MSS, let us have some fun with our little creativity, dont rain on our parade...ha ha, just joking...

oh yeah, the spring loaded gate would be pretty hard for a single seat car to get through, ha ha...

[SPROCKET]

klaus could we design a special sticker and use this money for building several gates in key locations or maybe sell a gate to a large race team. spring loaded would work fine and iam sure sal has the names and contacts for the ranchers where the 500 and 1000 races cross . i know of 2 large metal fab shops in ensanada capable of producing such a gate. if we all want to keep using these roads and ranchs lets give back. bigger team could supply $ and smaller teams the man power.iam sure we could set this up with a local
paper and get some much needed positive press.
i will be in ensanada this weekend and will take a rough draft to my friends fab shop and
get some progected costs.
any fab guys out there please e mail me with a design
maybe we could put in a gate before the 1000.
dont let this topic fade.
the last thing we all want is to have baja shut down just like grinolandia.
that my 0.02 cents

[Stephen]

If you want to keep cows in and let cars go through, how about trying a rack of steel pipes laying down on the ground with some spaces between them so the cows can't step on them without falling through but cars can drive over them. Then you won't even have to have a gate.





Maybe we could call it a cattle guard? :-)

Seriously now, if you're going to build something, this is a piece of hardware with some lasting value. It might be too much of a pain to set them though.

[Jack]

If you want to keep cows in and let cars go through, how about trying a rack of steel pipes laying down on the ground with some spaces between them so the cows can't step on them without falling through but cars can drive over them. Then you won't even have to have a gate.





Maybe we could call it a cattle guard? :-)

Seriously now, if you're going to build something, this is a piece of hardware with some lasting value. It might be too much of a pain to set them though.


You beat me to it. I think makeing gates that are easy to use is great, but still wont get people to use them. This is why they invented cattle guards for gates that can be left open. At least this would be good duing the race but people should still be curtious.

[OldStroppeTeam]

My name is __________ and I leave gates open !

Guys, we are providing what is called enabling behavior for a few idiots who choose not to follow the rules.

If you find the gate closed, Leave it CLOSED !!

It's like when your mom used to yell at you to "shut the door" when you and all your friends came tromping in the house ( maybe she still does) !

[negro3030]

wouldn´t you have a bunch of cows with broken legs with these cattle guards if they fall through?

[OldStroppeTeam]

wouldn´t you have a bunch of cows with broken legs with these cattle guards if they fall through?


Cattle guards work well, where they are in a paved road. That is providing people don't try to avoid the cattle guard by running through the adjoining fences.
They will not work in a wash where dirt and rocks will fill them in every time it runs....


JUST CLOSE THE GATES PEOPLE !!!

[class51600]

If the B1000 was in Mexicali, you shouldnt have this problem, Because you only have DEZERT to race, not mountain and ranches

True but this is some boaring racing. I have race some CODE raceses and I was falling a sleep at the weel.

[class51600]

Do you really want the race to go to MEXICALI?? 100 dgrees., DUST, SAND AND ROCKS.:confused:

Bring the race ot TIJUANA. More HOTELS, Mayor is better, more things to do, more restaurants etc etc etc. better city overall to hold such a big event.
More Crime, More Crime, and a am ho yea More Crime.

[class51600]

Sorry for my last two post I was just getting angree that they were going off couse with this post. My wife is from Ensenada, and some of my best friends own the same ranches that the SCORE races go through. For many years there has been groups of ranchers that have wanted to stop all races all together. This is not that easy as this races bring quite a lot of money into the city but every time this happens there coaliton get stronger and stronger. By the way good idea about the gates.

[class51600]

If you want to keep cows in and let cars go through, how about trying a rack of steel pipes laying down on the ground with some spaces between them so the cows can't step on them without falling through but cars can drive over them. Then you won't even have to have a gate.
Maybe we could call it a cattle guard? :-)

Seriously now, if you're going to build something, this is a piece of hardware with some lasting value. It might be too much of a pain to set them though.
Not a good idea cows will try and break a leg and that will not go well with the ranchers.

[J.JOHNSON]

I guess some people need their MOM to fallow them everywhere. If that's the case take her prerunning with you. O to work with you if you a guide on a tour. Jackass's

[Stephen]

Not a good idea cows will try and break a leg and that will not go well with the ranchers.

I had a smart butt comment ready about cattle guards but instead....., keep in mind that there are literally millions in use already and I doubt they'd catch on it they were a problem. Heck, I've seen white lines painted on a road keep livestock where they're supposed to be.

But in Baja, shutting the gates is probably the ticket, cattle guards do have to be cleaned out when they silt in, they have to be set, etc. And it's not that hard to just shut the gate.
One idea for something to help make the ranchers lives better could be to take down something for a fence post. A 4' 2x4 could make a big difference in some of those gates.

"The real prerunner's the one in the middle, 1st, he don't have to drive, then, he don't have to mess with the gate"

[Hemp]

why not just have a spring loaded gate that someone could hold open while cars pass then it will close once he lets go?

[bajafox]

why not just have a spring loaded gate that someone could hold open while cars pass then it will close once he lets go?

I don't think that will be too popular on race day.

[gwm]

I don't think that will be too popular on race day.

If we were building them it would be easy to set up a pin to keep them open when needed.

As a community I really like the idea of us supplying and installing gates where there is a problem. We need to keep the people of Baja on our side by being good neighbors and helping out with problems we create.

[racer951]

The ranchers aren't asking us to build them hi-tech gates. They might not even want or like them. They are asking us to close a gate...you shouldn't be driving a vehicle if you don't have the capacity to do that.

[Vtr_Racing]

I think that most ranchers would like new gates. Its also a good gesture that we want to be good neighbors....

[cosmo]

I have been reading this thread with some interest.It's true that everyone at one time or another has come upon a gate allready open and figured the "next guy" will close it.I know that I have.I think what I read that seems to be the best idea is when you are loading up this weeekend to go down and prerun throw in that 2x4 or two in your garage or yard.Grab some bailing wire at the Home Depot and bring it down too.throw it in your rig and when you cross a gate make a "donation". Some might go so far as to sponsor a gate or two? That's why I love the kickstand on my XR600.

[Hemp]

The ranchers aren't asking us to build them hi-tech gates.

I wouldnt consider a spring and a latch as hi-tech

and also they might not be asking for it but it would be a great way to show some appreciation for those ranchers that would like it

we help them out they help us out

[Jefe_Negro]

:cool: Man...


they might not be asking for it but it would be a great way to show some appreciation for those ranchers that would like it

Amen!

[CHINOLAS]

OK Guys, i've received a call from Todd Clemment yesterday and solved the problemm, he did'nt accept they caused this problem (WIDE OPEN BAJA GATES TOUR CO.) but he said that a DONATION would be enough to solve the problem, let me tell you something about this issue, i called Todd last Friday 21st and didn't answered, left a message at his voice mail and he got back to me until yesterday, why, because Sal Fish himself got involved and asked me if Wide Open Baja already had made his self responsible and payed for the damage, i told Sal no way so he called Todd directly i don't know exactly what he told him but Todd got the idea, and very quickly. So today Hector Sarabia course coordinator for SCORE and part of the city link between SCORE and the Mayors Office went to San Matias, paid 400 dlls that Todd gave him yesterday at his Baja Ranch Hotel, Bar and Restaurant wich he makes thousands of dlls from, without paying any tax to the city or returning any fee to ranchers for rent of the land they use to do business.

The total cost of the repair will be close to 900 dlls, thats because San Matias asked for 2 Cattle Guards and also 2 individuals paid for 1 week of opening and closing the gates until Wide Open delivers the cattle guards to San Matias, guards that Wide Open will fabricate and deliver them self and cost close to 500 dlls, plus the 400 dlls they gave Hector for salarys on installing and guarding doors, as you can see they wont trust any racer-pre runner to open and close their gates, they really want to be sure they're closed.

Hope this clears all this mess, and YES for the future CLOSE ALL GATES, even if they where opened when you got to it.

Hope this DONATION don't bring WIDE OPEN BAJA to Bankrupcy, if you want to race the Baja 1000 on BC Class be ready to pay between 30,000 to 60,000 dlls for entry, times 15 cars in that class already, make your accounts and see if it's or not a big cash business.

[negro3030]

ok, great new, however, I dont find it relevant to mention how much money Wide Open makes, it doesn´t matter, if they can fix the problem with 900 then fine, the only thing that matters is that apparantly the proble is solved and we can all race again and the ranchers are content...

my .02

[coolcruiserfj40]

cattle guards wont break a cows leg the slits are to small for a cows leg to fall into, its more of a mental thing on the cows part

[Jack]

So what 'm harng s th cattle gaurd thing was not such a bad idea....
Glad this seems to be taken care of but what about this missing cattle? Did they find them and get them back?

We still need to close the rest of the gates.
Maybe more cattle gaurds or still on order.

[JL Gomez]

The follow is just my personal opinion, I'm not establishing real situations.

Again, talking about money.

If you are making some money in any country, good for you, if you found the way to avoid Hacienda (IRS) to pay taxes (In Mexico you must pay around 30% of your profit), what a smart guy!!! (Legally or not is another thread)

BUT, you must be enough smart to avoid the eyes of the Off Road community, taking the responsability immediately of the acts of your company, I can't believe, one week to pay only $ 900 Dlls.

My advice for this is, Guilty or not about the gates, if you see that is on risk the course of your tours (for any reason) be smart and save your company, make a volunteer and sincere donation for the ranch owners and you will make more friends, believe me.

[Mark_Weyhrich]

The issue with the tour companies (All of them, not just Wide Open) is a lot bigger than this one problem. This one just got visiblity because it was on the 1000 course and the race is coming up.

We continually stop to talk to the locals when we prerun and have developed many close relationships with people up and down the Baja Peninsula. NONE OF THEM HAS ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY ABOUT THE TOUR COMPANIES.

The perception they have is that these people think they can just come down here and use private land, tearing it up in the process and threatening livelihoods and not provide any compensation for the use or damage. It seems they have an "Old West" mentality that anything goes.

In many cases, the issues are brought to the attention of the tour company in question and they are even invited to come down to their version of a "Town Hall" meeting to discuss the problem(s). Yet, this almost never happens.

It comes down to a lack of education and respect. The tour companies have a responsiblity to educate their clients on proper protocol and to instill a sense of respect for the landowners, whose land they are typically using without permission.

[Mark_Weyhrich]

Gates have been an issue forever. Back in the 80's, we all pitched in and "Sponsored" cattle guards which replaced gates on much of the Baja 500 course of the day. IT WAS A HUGE HIT WITH THE LANDOWNERS. A lot of those gates went into the "Pine Forest" areas, but some of them we still race over today.

I personally would like to see SCORE put together a simlar program today. I know we would be 100% for such an idea and would be willing to commit funds toward it.

[Lucho]

Simple formula to solve problem:

1. Build cattleguards (average cost $450.00 for material--buy the material in Baja. Mexicali has good prices.)
2. Allow Clubs, Teams or Individuals to sponsor each cattleguard and have their names placed on the cement portion.
3. Contract U.S. Companies, Clubs, Teams, sponsors to go and set them on weekends. Maybe that's also part of their sponsorship
4. SCORE provide a comprehensive list of locations where these cattleguards are needed, regardless whether next year's races will go through them or not.[/b]

and the final best solution...are you ready?...

Ta, Ta, Taaaaa!!!

5. MARK THE RACECOURSE AWAY FROM RANCHES, EJIDOS, LOCALLY-USED TRAILS, ACCESS ROADS, ETC. Yes, it takes a little more work by the promoter, but it avoids a lot of problems.

As Baja Promotions, over a period of 12 years in Baja, we averaged 12 major off-road races a year (including Gran Prix and off-road races in San Felipe, Tecate, Mexicali, Rosarito, Ensenada, Ojos Negros, San Luis Rio Colorado, Rocky Point, etc.) The only time we ever used a course that went through a ranch or ejido is because THEY WANTED US TO GO THROUGH THERE. (Most of the time we stayed away from them.)

In 12 years, we only had to pay for three or four gates. We actually went back on Mondays and/or Tuesdays (after a race) and settled with the rancher(s). We took our insurance adjuster with us on those trips. And, since our main sponsor was TECATE BEER, it wasn't hard for the adjuster to be in a gracious frame of mind (after a few hours in the truck) to pay-up quickly.
Often we paid a "Baja Ejido Fee" that went for the sole purpose to set up "cattle guards." We've done a few of those.

As a result of not using existing roads and trails in Baja, you can thank Baja Promotions for a number of racecourse trails that we established and are now being used:

Race routes:
1. Tres Hermanos to Cerro Colorado (the rim route)
2. Tres Hermanos to El Alamo (the backside through Rancho Idependencia)
2. El Alamo to Valley de Trinidad on the West side of the road.
3. Chenate Wash
4. Huatamote Wash
5. Chollas to the Max Cut off, off Matomi Wash
6. Mexicali to Tres Posos on the east side of the Laguna Salada
7. K38 (mexicali to La Rumirosa Hwy) to Cohabusco Junction through the old Governor's mansion
8. K38 to La Rumirosa (the switchbacks - Part of that credit should also go to Los Ancianos MC, who first opened it for the 1972 Tecate 500 Enduro).
9. San Felipe to Borrego without crossing the highway (west of Hwy)
10. The "Little Summit" pass from Borrego to San Felipe.
11. The trails through Valle Chico (behind San Felipe mountains).
12. Azufre Wash (wash between Matomi and Huatamote)
13. Mexicali to La Ventana (at the foot of the hills, East and West trails)
14. The famous "Volcano" route south of Mexicali. (I don't believe it has been used it yet by SCORE but others have), that can take you to San Luis Rio Colorado
15. The trails south of San Luis Rio Colorado to Rocky point.
16. Ensenada to Maneandero to the back side of Simpsons
17. Ensenada to Ojos Negros
18. Trails from Tecate, to Rancho Santa Veronica, to Laguna Hansen, and splits to either La Rumirosa, Laguna Salada or down to Ojos Negros and Valle de Trinidad.

Many of these were used to avoid going through ranchos, ejidos and many were done to open new trails and roads so that after the race, locals could use them to get around much quicker. There are quite a few more.

Thought you'd like to know.

Lou Peralta
lou@bpmotorsports.net

[bajafox]

How about this complicated solution:

While marking the course, mark the gate! No triple arrows pointing down just a simple sign that says "CLOSE GATE"

How many gates can there possibly be?

[BajaboundMoto]

The issue with the tour companies (All of them, not just Wide Open) is a lot bigger than this one problem. . NONE OF THEM HAS ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY ABOUT THE TOUR COMPANIES. The perception they have is that these people think they can just come down here and use private land, tearing it up in the process ...that anything goes.Sorry, this note got long....bear with me...

Without a doubt Mark is semi-correct... But, I feel the statement was a bit broad.
There is a possibility some problems could be caused by Tour companies, but very few compared to problems caused by the weekend warrior types, big private bike groups, and GPS followers.

Tour companies (there are 5) are down South more often than most and in most cases (yes I feel there may be some exceptions) their conduct and respect for locals is beyond reproach. Tour companies need to stay good with the ranchers and they understand that.

I can honestly say that we encounter MANY problems caused by groups of riders that are NOT Tour guys, just big private groups. But, to the locals ALL the bikers are "tour" groups.
Honestly, we all look the same so how do they know it's a Tour company?

I've had long talks with Nico Saad about this and even he used to be under the impression all the groups were "tours" when in fact they're not.

Big PRIVATE groups mark trail with ribbon, sometimes with paint, they ride too fast around ranches, they aren't familiar with areas so they DO go onto private property where they shouldn't be, and they leave gates open.

Anyone who has ridden with me can tell you that I am extremely into being courteous, respectful, understanding to the locals, and safe.

I also clean up ribbons and markers left from others whenever possible.
Just ask Sarabia about the guy (me) in May he stopped to lecture about all the bikes and ribbons and paint up in the Pines and I opened my jacket and piles of ribbons fell out (which I had stripped along the way) and I pulled my brown paint out of my backpack - the paint I was using to cover over the pink paint left on trees by other private bikers (that pink paint problem was discussed back then on Baja.net and on thumpertalk). Sarabia was out to bust my balls and instead we ended up seeing eye-to-eye, which he wasn't expecting.

Also, I have personally made no less than 80 plastic signs that read "motos slow", "please close gate", "private - do not enter", and "motos 5mph" and I have placed these over the past 9 years all over northern Baja.
I have never seen another similar sign other than the SCORE ones. Want a simple example?...1/2 mile past where the Simpsons Rd passes the T of the "6 mile sign" there's a ranch on your Rt with signs to keep people out. Granted, the signs are just plastic and weather away after a while so many dissapear, but I've been doing them (now I've switched to painted wood signs).

-- The Dukes family up in the Pines, I took him about 15 signs one day, I seriously doubt he has any problem with me.
-- The new "bridge" up at the Sawmill...they wanted $350 to build it so I pitched in $250. I doubt they think I'm a bad guy. As a matter of fact I have keys to Ramonas coolers and gas "station" in case I'm ever there and Ramona is not.
-- Ever since the gates over by Nuevo Jct. got the signs about "no off roaders" I have not been back thru there except for the 1000 and 500, not with groups. But I know almost all other bikers still go thru there. I respect what the rancher wants and therefore ride the Hwy from Independencia to VdT.
-- We also have keys to gates in a couple other spots where we've talked to the Ranchers about us riding thru and they are fine with it (small #'s of bikes), so we set up their chains with our own locks.
-- Recently I attened a meeting in Tecate with the Mayor and a small group of off roaders and promotors. Unfortunately I was the ONLY Tour type guy there.

I feel a huge problem is that PRIVATE bikers do not want to stop and talk to the Ranchers, maybe they're scared or something, it's sad. We constantly stop to talk with them and discuss land problems and such and it never has ended on a bad note.
I've even had clients give me crap about my wasting "their" riding time because I'm talking with Ranchers...oh well, the customer is NOT always right!

On the subject of Wide Open Tours.... I feel that if Todd said his group was not there in Matias during that time frame,, I believe him. If he paid a fine/fee to keep everyone happy and the course on the dirt then I thank him for doing so. We should all thank them, not roast him/WOB here.
Thanks Todd!


Thanks for taking the time to read this long one,
Tim Morton

[BajaboundMoto]

While marking the course, mark the gate! No triple arrows pointing down just a simple sign that says "CLOSE GATE"SCORE already does that.

[ChuckH]

I had doubts that Wide Open did it, there are lots of people out there and saying they did it was just guessing in my opinion, they ended up being a scape goat.

[dirtsports]

To all,

I need to help put this to rest. As all of you know, there is nobody more intimate with Todd Clement and the Wide Open Baja operation than myself. We've worked for nearly a decade together building up both the tour operation and the Baja Challenge.

Without question, the only way that the company could possibly have operated for this long is due to one thing: integrity and respect. I know the company, in fact, pays proper taxes, employees nearly 70 Mexican mechanics and staff and deals with the ranchers on a constant basis (not just 1-2 times a year.) The company teaches the importance of the local ranchers to all its guests, and always slows down to avoid dust and always, always closes the gates. Anybody who thinks differently is absolutely dead wrong. Wide Open would have been a dead issue without on-going contributions to the local communities and private ranchers.

Before you cast stones, remember that Wide Open has literally opened the door to our sport to thousands of new people around the world, never mind raising the level of understanding to people such as Paul Newman, Jesse James, Roberto Guerrero and on and on...not to mention the journalists who have written about the sport and helped take it to the level of success we are all enjoying.

This whole thread is a serious issue dealt with in a very unserious, nearly insulting manner based on rumors and not facts. Think about it, why would a high profile company like Wide Open piss in its own backyard?

Marty

[OldStroppeTeam]

To all,

I need to help put this to rest. As all of you know, there is nobody more intimate with Todd Clement and the Wide Open Baja operation than myself. We've worked for nearly a decade together building up both the tour operation and the Baja Challenge.

Before you cast stones, remember that Wide Open has literally opened
This whole thread is a serious issue dealt with in a very unserious, nearly insulting manner based on rumors and not facts. Think about it, why would a high profile company like Wide Open piss in its own backyard?

Marty
GEE WIZ !!
We were all for trying to make it better or share our comments about this

UNTIL ......

Someone mentioned WOB as the offender.... wether they (you) are or aren't I think this thread covered this issue quite well.... Once a name was attached, I agree, it got a little rough on WOB.......so I guess we'll just say THANKS for steppin up and takin your lumps for us...... because we are sure you didn't do it !!!!!!!

[WildCat]

Do you really want the race to go to MEXICALI?? 100 dgrees., DUST, SAND AND ROCKS.:confused:

Bring the race ot TIJUANA. More HOTELS, Mayor is better, more things to do, more restaurants etc etc etc. better city overall to hold such a big event.


Yeah, and more crack junkies, more drug dealers, more of all of that good stuff. Yeah, bring the Baja to TJ, and if you are lucky, you'll be alive or have a car to race on on race day...!!! Leave the event where it is and where it belongs: Ensenada !!!

And remember: CLOSE THE PINCHES GATES...!!!!

[DRZ_Motorsports_119]

Yeah, and more crack junkies, more drug dealers, more of all of that good stuff. Yeah, bring the Baja to TJ, and if you are lucky, you'll be alive or have a car to race on on race day...!!! Leave the event where it is and where it belongs: Ensenada !!!

And remember: CLOSE THE PINCHES GATES...!!!!

WTF!!!! Dude where are you from, and what part of the planet do you live????
and if this is a joke it's a funny one.

DRZ Motorsports 119

[Mark_Weyhrich]

Marty,

I agree with much of what you are saying and since I also consider Todd a personal friend, I believe I need to clarify my post.

I believe most of the tour companies and their management are out there to do the right thing. However, the issue with them is their ability to control the actions of all of their clients. As we all know, stuff happens in Baja and there are a lot of people on those tours who have no concept of the impact of taking out a section of fence or going too fast next to a house. No matter how hard they try, it is impossible to control this.

I mentioned Wide Open because they are clearly the cream of the crop in this industry and I know they have issues. And, if they have issues then you can rest assured that the other companies have more.

With regard to gates being left open in San Matias by Wide Open, well I simply do not believe that to be the case. I have led a tour for Wide Open and there is always a Lead Car and a Chase Car, both with Wide Open personnel on board. I highly doubt that anyone employed by Wide Open would leave a gate open.

[gwm]

To all,

This whole thread is a serious issue dealt with in a very unserious, nearly insulting manner based on rumors and not facts. Think about it, why would a high profile company like Wide Open piss in its own backyard?

Marty

Marty:

I take issue with the last paragraph. You are guilty of the same sort of lumping you are objecting to. WOB was a small part of this thread and I, frankly, never believed it was them. The evidence was insufficient. A few people went off on them. If you look at my posts you will see they were serious and oriented toward resolution and prevention without blame. Yet you feel free to indicate the "whole thread" deals with the issue in an unserious and nearly insulting manner. I disagree. If you are going to throw stones (and I have no problem thowing stones here because SOME of the posts are pretty out-there), please make sure they are properly directed.

George.

[dustyhusky]

Some might go so far as to sponsor a gate or two?

Thats the best idea i have ever read on this board.

If Herbst, Riviera, Honda, the various tour companies, etc. all sponsored a gate--things would be a lot smoother down there.

The gate could be a really cool set up with a sign in english about how important it is to close it, etc. It could also have a logo of the sponsor...sure it would be stolen--but the idea has merit.

Wish there was a way to get the 'adopt a gate' idea going...

Closing the gates is a much bigger problem than most ya-hoos down there realize.

Hey Marty--just curious--what exactly do you do/pay whatever to the local ranchers when you do tours on their land?