why no power adders.

[fathead]

Hey guys, just curious, why are s/chargers, turbos, nitrous etc. not allowed in the "premiere" classes like class 1 and TT.

[John F2000]

Hey guys, just curious, why are s/chargers, turbos, nitrous etc. not allowed in the "premiere" classes like class 1 and TT.


I am not 100% positive, but I believe it is because in the early days turbos and blowers were considered exotic and beyond a lot of racers budgets. So it was a basic class limitation. At one time the motor was a limiting factor. Now with 600+ cubic inch motors, the engine is not the limitation, such as in TT's. It is the drive train that is the limiting factor. Most trannys and rear-ends will not live with 1,000+ hp motors.

However, I believe that turbos and blowers should be allowed in certain classes, because it is cheaper to run. In the world of $80,000 800 hp small blocks, I can build a 800 - 1,000 hp motor for 1/3 that which is more reliable and cheaper to rebuild than the typical nat aspirated counterpart motor. The powerband is better with a much lower torque curve and they can run on pump gas.

I hope those that set the rules will look to update them for the current times.

[FABRICATOR]

...because it is cheaper to run. In the world of $80,000 800 hp small blocks, I can build a 800 - 1,000 hp motor for 1/3 that which is more reliable and cheaper to rebuild than the typical nat aspirated counterpart motor. The powerband is better with a much lower torque curve and they can run on pump gas.

Hmmm, that's a pretty good description of a big block. ;)

[sickrick]

I am not 100% positive, but I believe it is because in the early days turbos and blowers were considered exotic and beyond a lot of racers budgets. So it was a basic class limitation. At one time the motor was a limiting factor. Now with 600+ cubic inch motors, the engine is not the limitation, such as in TT's. It is the drive train that is the limiting factor. Most trannys and rear-ends will not live with 1,000+ hp motors.

However, I believe that turbos and blowers should be allowed in certain classes, because it is cheaper to run. In the world of $80,000 800 hp small blocks, I can build a 800 - 1,000 hp motor for 1/3 that which is more reliable and cheaper to rebuild than the typical nat aspirated counterpart motor. The powerband is better with a much lower torque curve and they can run on pump gas.

I hope those that set the rules will look to update them for the current times.

I agree 100% with the fact you can build a similar hp motor that is more reliable for way less money.

[Dezertpilot]

It's an UNLIMITED class why not make it that way? Besides a few obvious reasons.

[John F2000]

Hey guys, just curious, why are s/chargers, turbos, nitrous etc. not allowed in the "premiere" classes like class 1 and TT.

The real question is who in the heck came up the the name "power adders". Sounds like an accountant. All the magazines nowdays refer to this. When I grew up a blower was just that bad ***. 6-71 meant something. A turbo, well a turbo was way exotic. Nitrous, that ment Big Bang, or its going to blow soon. Using the word power adder kind of takes away from the most radical motor parts which have the most bad *** names, BLOWN 6-71, TURBO, NITROUS. I mean they even sound fast.

[partybarge_pilot]

Turbo's=$$$$$$$$ Yes most people will never get that carried away due to lack of funds, But just look back a little in history to what happened to F1. Early 80's BMW 1.5L motor had over 1300HP at 150LB's of boost. Anybody want a 10 car with 1300HP? All it would do is turn into more of a spending war than it all ready is.

[John F2000]

Turbo's=$$$$$$$$ Yes most people will never get that carried away due to lack of funds, But just look back a little in history to what happened to F1. Early 80's BMW 1.5L motor had over 1300HP at 150LB's of boost. Anybody want a 10 car with 1300HP? All it would do is turn into more of a spending war than it all ready is.

Actually it is just the oposite. Turbo's dont equal lots of dollars. My motor is a prime example. 1000 hp with a long block which cost no more than 12k. I can replace an entire long block for less than a TT motor cost to rebuild. And I have more hp, and a better torque curve. In F1 the car and drive train can take just about any hp. In Class 1 and TT hp is not the limiting factor, the drive train is. Most TT drive train would not hold up with 1,500 hp. In order to build a competitive tt motor you need to spend 60 to 80k, just to get maybey 800 hp. That Hp comes mostly from high rpm's. High rpm motors cost money. A blown motor can be done with the same hp for significantly less. And the rebuild is cheeper. To be competetive the racers easily can get say 700 hp but to get 800hp you need to spend another 25k. thats a lot for 100hp. And the motor becomes more unreliable. Comparable blown motor is just the oposite, want 100 hp turn the boost up. And you dont need an exotic hand designed set of heads to do it.

In my response I was not refering to 10 cars. I was only using the unlimited classes as an example. A 10 car is specifically designed to limit the motor.

[partybarge_pilot]

I was just useing the 10 car as an example due to it's motor size.

Yes your BBF is relativly cheap. But it is also heavy. Pretty soon somebody starts to think hey, what if we could lose half the motor wieght and still keep the same HP? 4 Cylidners, twice the boost, half the wieght.... Oh, now we can make the chassis lighter too! The spending goes on.........

[Samco Fab]

The way the cars sound could be a factor. A turbo car is quieter than a manly nat. asp. V8. Yea you could say it is dumb for sure, but there is something cool and memorable about a high strung reved out V8 blasting by you. There might be a tad bit of marketability from that as well.

I do think they should make a rule for diesel powered engines, that they could run with a turbo or supercharger with Diesel fuel in the non production classes.

Nitrous would be a cool thing, it would be like the Ivan Stewart arcade game, you could give each guy a certain amount at the beginning of a race and they could ration it however they chose, kind of a new element to a race, and would make passing more exciting!!

[John F2000]

I was just useing the 10 car as an example due to it's motor size.

Yes your BBF is relativly cheap. But it is also heavy. Pretty soon somebody starts to think hey, what if we could lose half the motor wieght and still keep the same HP? 4 Cylidners, twice the boost, half the wieght.... Oh, now we can make the chassis lighter too! The spending goes on.........

I would assume that in an unlimited class it would be done with a small block v8, I believe same cost benefit would arise as with the bb, just a little more boost, but you wouldnt need much more than 15 psi. But I doubt in TT you would find a benefit going to a turboed 4 or 6 cyl. The torque curve and powerband of a 4 or 6 to make 800 hp would be lousy in the dirt with a 4,000lb car. And I dont see allowing lighter cars in that class since they are actually going the other direction and requiring them to have bigger tubing, ie heavier. That is what is so unusual about allowing a blown motor in an a TT. It really would only be a benefit in a v8 config. It is one of the few classes in racing that has its own inherit limitations which there is no real benefit for exceeding 1,000 hp. It wont stick to the ground beyond that and the drive train wont take it. So why not allow the rules so that one can build a better, more reliable, and cheeper motor?

[John F2000]

The way the cars sound could be a factor. A turbo car is quieter than a manly nat. asp. V8. Yea you could say it is dumb for sure, but there is something cool and memorable about a high strung reved out V8 blasting by you. There might be a tad bit of marketability from that as well.

I do think they should make a rule for diesel powered engines, that they could run with a turbo or supercharger with Diesel fuel in the non production classes.

Nitrous would be a cool thing, it would be like the Ivan Stewart arcade game, you could give each guy a certain amount at the beginning of a race and they could ration it however they chose, kind of a new element to a race, and would make passing more exciting!!

Actually a tuboed v8 isnt that quiet. Not like the 4 cyl. With a small turbo, low lag, motor, the waste gates opens early and are actually very loud since it has no muffler. The sound of a v8, with a slight jet whistle sound down low and wide open exhaust up high is preety marketable.

I believe they do allow deisels to have turbo's.

[LILAK]

Something about going over 100mph in the desert with a compressed bottle of NOS onboard scares me. Just my opinion though. Also, doesn't running turbos mean theres a chance of them failing; more spare parts to carry / worry about??

[John F2000]

Something about going over 100mph in the desert with a compressed bottle of NOS onboard scares me. Just my opinion though. Also, doesn't running turbos mean theres a chance of them failing; more spare parts to carry / worry about??

No comment on the NOS. I dont really think it is practical in an endurance situation.

Regarding the turbos failing. The turbo is probably one of the least likely parts to fail on a race engine. Turbos on an f250 diesel go for over 200,000 miles. In general there is no real difference between a production turbo and a race turbo in reference to reliablity. In fact most applications you could use a hybrid production version. In an off road situation you may have to rebuild the cold section once every other season due to dust, but it will still work, just take a little longer getting on boost. Even if a turbo fails, in most situations you can continue to run.

[Bulldozer]

I do believe diesel engines with turbo's are currently allowed by score rules, if the motor was turbocharged from the factory.

however I could be wrong.

Anyway's I think power adders were also originally ruled out, because when the rules were first drawn up, they were often considered dangerous, and they still are, but alot more time and research has been put into them today.
Sooo, I think it's time to change the rules.

I don't think it would really turn into a budget contest, because turbo, or high comp. there's still only a certain amount of power the engine block can take,not to mention the rear end/tranny etc. Look at top fuel cars, they blow up like 1 out of 3 times they run. And what's really more important in the desert, big horsepower,or big reliability?

[jeff]

Turbo's rule. Had one on a Subaru not too long ago, have one on my current diesel. Just drove a Ford Focus TDI 1500 miles from the Netherlands to Austria and back and it got around 35-40 mpg. At the speed I was traveling a gasoline powered car of the same size would get 1/2 the mileage. A small-ish turbo diesel motor in an unlimited car could make plenty of power. With tons of torque you don't need radically high RPM's.

Gasoline is old school if you ask me. Check out what's been winning at the 24 Hours of Le Mans... Audi Diesels. And the new Audi R10 is even better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10

I think SCORE is crazy to limit the engine in an unlimited class. Compare the support budget of Pfleuger to Pistol Pete and then tell me who did better at PRIMM? It doesn't seem to make a difference if one team is spending $50,000 on a motor and another spends $500,000 on a motor. Opening up the unlimited class to allow ANY piston driven motor seems to make sense to me.

Aloha