SHOP Talk V-DRIVE

[Mr. V-Driver]

Any ??? regarding mid-engine, V-Drive trophy trucks,...ask here.....???:)

[steveG]

How about some pics for those of us that aren't too familiar with them?

[Chase 2]

Just what is the average power loss and why did JJ's fail?? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Mr. V-Driver]

Just what is the average power loss and why did JJ's fail?? Inquiring minds want to know!

His failed unfortunately due to a Time thing. They barely finished the truck in time with NO testing. They didn't plumb the water cooling corectly. They said it was super hot after only 50 Miles. The other guys, like RG worked perfectly. Believe me I was Bummed when I heard it was the V-Drive that kept him from finishing. JJ said, "No worries Man, We'll get it dialed in!"

Will post some pics. later, need to resize my jpg.s, anyone know what size I should make them in order for it to work. I shrank down to 350 x and didn't work.

Thanks for all your guys questions!!!:)

[Chase 2]

My first exposure to V-drives (except for boats) was with the Trevor Harris designed Vortec Trailblazers. I had doubts, esp. with the 6 cyl, however they worked flawlessly. Its the way to go for long travel and weight distribution. But, again that heat generated is pure horsepower loss..

[HardCharger81]

I didn't realize it was water cooled. Aren't the ones in boats just in an oil bath like a rear end or a transfer case?

[FABRICATOR]

They are the ones out of the boats. They go much farther back than the Trailblazers. They all run hot. Casale huh? You guys make em?
____________________________
V-Drive Loather!

http://www.boatdesigns.com/images/99-800.jpg

[scottm]

Very cool Mitch, you will add an interesting new dimension to rdc. Casale has made some awesome stuff over the years and completely rule the hot boat scene. Killer boats are at least as cool as race trucks, plus the 'pit crews' wear bikinis!

Yes boat units are water cooled. I had a v drive 19 foot Beismeyer K boat, and I often put my hand on the gearbox to see if it was staying cool. If not I had to swim under the boat and check for blockage of the water pickup.

[Mr. V-Driver]

Thanks, Kool to be here!:)

Some of the Quarter Mile boats use such a high gear they machine out the water jacket and use only oil in the main case. Pleasure and circle type boats use water cooling and Oil cooling.

The trucks run hot because the water coming in is already 210*-220*F. Guys like RG's, Raglands, and Pfluger have found a way to keep them cool. I'd imaging an oil cooler and tranny cooler with fan to circulate all the fluids and try to keep them cool as possible.

The truck v-drive's are like their lake counter part except they use thicker, stronger gears and Xtra Heavy Duty Shafts.;)

[scottm]

So are you 2nd or 3rd generation of the Casale vdrive clan? I remember an article about a casale vdrive box the size of a tv set, made for a v-12 allison powered ski race boat. Were you a part of that project?

[ChuckH]

The truck v-drive's are like their lake counter part except they use thicker, stronger gears and Xtra Heavy Duty Shafts.;)

Which drive should people use out of your selection, do you make the parts you mention or are they done by race teams.

There is a serious lack of info for people thinking about using a V-drive in their next build, unless they have already used a V-drive offroad in the past.

How about a offroad section loaded with info at your site, might even help sales ;)

[BlueCoyote]

I am considering a V drive of an upcoming project, but had some concerns on them. All the marine ones I saw have a round input/output shaft with a key way. While that appears good for spinning a prop at high speed, is that stong enough to handle the constant pounding and torque changes experianced in off road use?

[Mr. V-Driver]

So are you 2nd or 3rd generation of the Casale vdrive clan? I remember an article about a casale vdrive box the size of a tv set, made for a v-12 allison powered ski race boat. Were you a part of that project?

3rd generation. Yep, part of all the projects along with my pop and bro.

New News from Porter race cars****Jessies truck didn't fail because of the V-DRive. They BLEW the motor Up. V-Drive is in perfect condition.:D

[Mr. V-Driver]

For Chuck H and Blue Coyote-I'll try and answer the best I can.

All parts made by us, the HD gears, shafts, etc. We use a 32 spline input and output matched up to flanges or yokes per. customers request. Is way stronger than keys and can handle all the pounding. A website is slowly in the works, hope to have it out for the new 2007 year. Will definately have an off-road section.

Thanks for the ?????'s Guys!;)

[punkassslacker]

I work at a shop that does re-powers on commercial fishing boats and private yachts. I see a lot of ZF and Twin disc trannys come in out our doors, it's about 50/50 v-drive.

Do you have any good pictures you could post of both the inside and outside of those trannys? I would love to see how the boat trannys compare to the trannys in the TTs.

My other question is do you acctual 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc gears in the v-drives you deal with or is the v-drive more of an intermediate part than a tranny like in the boat applications?

I feel stupid for asking these questions, but i just haven't gotten a good look at any of the TT's v-drives. I have to agree with ChuckH, thier is a lack of info out their.

[rebel33]

What makes V-drives run so hot compared to manual gear boxes or conventional rear ends? what kind of gears are they using that are so inefficient? I had no Idea these units have to be liquid cooled.

Thanks!

[Chris_Wilson]

These are pictures of one of the V-drives out of an Unlimited Hydroplane.

[Big Oly TT]

These are pictures of one of the V-drives out of an Unlimited Hydroplane.

That thing is huge! I like the dry sump pump for circulation of the oil.

[Big Oly TT]

For Chuck H and Blue Coyote-I'll try and answer the best I can.

All parts made by us, the HD gears, shafts, etc. We use a 32 spline input and output matched up to flanges or yokes per. customers request. Is way stronger than keys and can handle all the pounding. A website is slowly in the works, hope to have it out for the new 2007 year. Will definately have an off-road section.

Thanks for the ?????'s Guys!;)

I was seriously looking at doing the v-drive on my TT project we are starting, but backed away from it, due to lack of info, etc. I'm not going to do something (mechanically) with a learning curve attached to it or not having the pros and cons.
I did manage to go through the pits and talk to some of the guys who do top fuel drag boats this last summer at the San Diego event. They told me there is a bigger stronger top fuel unit they run. It is around $5000? Compared to the regular units for about half the amount. And I had no clue that they were water cooled or had to pump/cool the unit. Would love to see the set up up close. I saw Andy McMillians RB built rig stripped down a while back. I guess I blew my chance there. I was paying more attention to the drivetrain setup and not so much the unit itself or plumbing of it.:confused: :(

[DUMP!]

What makes V-drives run so hot compared to manual gear boxes or conventional rear ends? what kind of gears are they using that are so inefficient? I had no Idea these units have to be liquid cooled.

Thanks!

First of all you need to remember that the units being used in Trophy Trucks were originally designed for use in boats. In the boat enviornment they run cooler for two reasons.

The first being that the water coming into the units water jacket is cooler then the water being pumped into the truck version because it is being picked up off the bottom of the boat's hull and is the water the boat is running threw. In the truck version the water is pumped in from the engine cooling system and as Mitch pointed out is already at 200 plus degrees before it even reaches the inside of the unit.

The second reason is because when installed in a boat the unit is as close to the bottom of the boat as possible and usually sitting in a pool of water to begin with.

There is only a little over a quart of fluid (gear oil) in these units to start with so it doesn't take long to get them hot. That is why it is so important to have the water cooling working properly. Ideally they should develop a system that has a sump and recirculates the oil threw a cooler and then do away with the water cooling altogether. That looks to be the way the Unlimited hydro unit is above, but that unit is about four times the size of the unit in the average Trophy Truck.

I hope that helps,

Dump

[partybarge_pilot]

Don't the tubine powered hydros have some serious gear reduction going on also?

[jeff]

I think the props are usually spinning around 15,000 rpm and the reduction is 40-50%.

Aloha

[Chris_Wilson]

I shot those Unlimited pics a few years ago but I think that particular V-drive was in the piston powered pit. I shot these pics at the same time.

[Dezertpilot]

Dang those powerplants are MASSIVE! What are the specs on those?

[Big Oly TT]

I shot those Unlimited pics a few years ago but I think that particular V-drive was in the piston powered pit. I shot these pics at the same time.

Those Allison engines are sooooooooooooo coooooooool. But, not too good on the gas mileage.

[Big Oly TT]

Dang those powerplants are MASSIVE! What are the specs on those?

Google Allison V16 or V12? They were used in PT boats back in WWII. The boats ran 3 of these things and burned something like 2000-5000 gallons on an overnight mission. They are around 2000hp and were supercharged running 100LL avgas. The ones in the pics are around 4000hp. Rare engines today. Hard to find.

[therail]

ooooooh weee. I bet those turbos could suck a golf ball through a carburetor jet. :-)

[rebel33]

First of all you need to remember that the units being used in Trophy Trucks were originally designed for use in boats. In the boat enviornment they run cooler for two reasons.

The first being that the water coming into the units water jacket is cooler then the water being pumped into the truck version because it is being picked up off the bottom of the boat's hull and is the water the boat is running threw. In the truck version the water is pumped in from the engine cooling system and as Mitch pointed out is already at 200 plus degrees before it even reaches the inside of the unit.

The second reason is because when installed in a boat the unit is as close to the bottom of the boat as possible and usually sitting in a pool of water to begin with.

There is only a little over a quart of fluid (gear oil) in these units to start with so it doesn't take long to get them hot. That is why it is so important to have the water cooling working properly. Ideally they should develop a system that has a sump and recirculates the oil threw a cooler and then do away with the water cooling altogether. That looks to be the way the Unlimited hydro unit is above, but that unit is about four times the size of the unit in the average Trophy Truck.

Dump

If I get this right, these units are for boats, where cooling is ample, so they designed them with only a quart of oil (as opposed to 4-6 qt or more in typical manual transmissions), and so they can't work on land without the water cooling they were designed with? Someone try to design bigger sumps and add an external oil circulation system?

Someone know the efficiency of the typical V-drive?

[NicksTrix]

a bit off topic, well really off topic. i found a allison engine on ebay. close to you guys.
just think a 12 cyl TT that really does have over 1000 hp

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ALLISON-V-12-P-40-WARBIRD-AIRPLANE-ENGINE-BARN-FIND_W0QQitemZ110071614215QQihZ001QQcategoryZ26437 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ok, hook it to a vdrive and it will be in topic.

[Big Oly TT]

a bit off topic, well really off topic. i found a allison engine on ebay. close to you guys.
just think a 12 cyl TT that really does have over 1000 hp

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ALLISON-V-12-P-40-WARBIRD-AIRPLANE-ENGINE-BARN-FIND_W0QQitemZ110071614215QQihZ001QQcategoryZ26437 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ok, hook it to a vdrive and it will be in topic.

WOW! First time I have seen one for sale. Wish I had the extra money and time.

[85yota]

An old guy I used to work for had 2 of those engines in his shop, and he would't sell them for any amount of money. The Cal Poly SLO tractor pull team has a puller powered by one of those engines also.

[ntsqd]

The small oil volume thing seems a simple fix to me. Use a single stage dry sump pump driven off either shaft to pump oil thru a cooler. Or use a dry sump pump on the engine with an extra stage and plumb to it to pump the oil thru a cooler.
If you made it a 2 stage pump you could include a small dry sump style tank.
Scavange out of the bottom of the case & return right where the gears start to mesh.

Those V-12's or their cousins were also used in P-51's & Spitfires.

[NicksTrix]

ts, why not use a 12v gear oil pump through a cooler?
that or you could incorporate a internal pump like the roundy round guys use on their 9inch rear ends. those are very nice and eliminates the pump hanging out in the airflow. no more loosing belts from debris...

[ntsqd]

Nick, I'm a little leery of a 12VDC pump for that. I know Tilton makes or made such a pump, but it doesn't leave me feeling warm & fuzzy. The internal solution is appealling. Could possibly even be added-on to the case right at either shaft, sort of like how some servo-valves are attached to the input shaft of a R&P.

[NicksTrix]

ts, i don't know much about the elec pumps. i just recall that tilton made them. i've got no experience with them. for some reason i'm thnking cal used them on the toyotas. that's long ago and far away now.
i'm wiht you on the single stage pump or going internal.

[blurredvision1]

Albins makes a 12VDC gear oil pump for their transaxles.
Another possible candidate?

[Mr. V-Driver]

Sorry Guys was gone for a while. I'm not able to post pics.,..Don't know why???

You can e-mail me direx to Casale1vdrive@msn.com and I will be able to help more.
Maybe somebody can post pics for me.

Thanxx!! MC:)

[Big Oly TT]

Nick, I'm a little leery of a 12VDC pump for that. I know Tilton makes or made such a pump, but it doesn't leave me feeling warm & fuzzy. The internal solution is appealling. Could possibly even be added-on to the case right at either shaft, sort of like how some servo-valves are attached to the input shaft of a R&P.

The Tilton diff pumps are the noisests things and go out. Not dependable. I have used them.

[Big Oly TT]

Does anyone have pics/info on what actually RG or others are using? This solve all these?????:confused:

[DUMP!]

Does anyone have pics/info on what actually RG or others are using? This solve all these?????:confused:

Don't know what this solves, but here you go. Don't know if anything has changed, but this is what RG's looked like when it was first built.

Dump

[NicksTrix]

there's also a pump available for the mid valley trans i've seen used on cup cars.
interesting pics there dump. thanks

[FABRICATOR]

Weren't those on RG's website a while back?

Some here direct from Mr. V-Driver:

"...Hewitts soon to be built, making his
own frame., thats the square plate with my bro's arm in the pic."

"front and back of Jessie's V-drive, similar to the one's
that the other guys run."

[ntsqd]

That one looks puny compared to the RG unit.

[nmdzrtrat]

Mr. V-driver, what is the cost of a unit such as the one posted by Fab??

[Mr. V-Driver]

Check your pm's, don't want anyone to get mad and say I'm Spaming. This webstuff is very tricky, and I've learned to be wiser on posting. If someone posts my stuff or gives me credit it's acceptable, but if I, myself do, man then all HELL breaks loose.

It seems that you Off-road guys are a lot nicer than some of the boat dudes on the boat type websites.

Just want to say ThankYou to all of you so far, You guys are Gentlemen and this site Rocks!!!!!:D

[partybarge_pilot]

SInce not everybody is in the market for a V-drive, I doubt that this would ever be considered spaming.

[nmdzrtrat]

Mr. V-driver, Thanks for the quick responce on the cost estimate in the PM.

[Samco Fab]

Something I have always wondered is why some V drive Trophy Trucks run the driveline and pumpkin on the passenger side and some run it on the driver side. Robby runs driver and I think Porter runs passenger. What are some reasons to run either?

One reasoning I could see is you would want more room on the drivers side for brake and gas petals, and you would rather make a passenger cramped than a driver. Also the drivers side sometimes has a few more pounds more weight due to extra parts, so the pass v drive would offset it and balance the corner weight distribution. I wonder what effect engine torque lift would have? Any other reason? Can a v drive run either or, or is thier a specific drive for left or right output?

[ntsqd]

If it blows up, whose gonads do you want to loose? That would be the decider for me.

[Matt_Stankavich]

If I remeber correctly, Robby said something about always putting the codriver in the rougher stuff. So he does it to protect the pumpkin.

[Mr. V-Driver]

Just want to say Thanks to all you guys out there runnin and building new trucks with our stuff, You guys are Great!!!

Good Luck tO Everyone Runnin Laughlin, NV. :)

[rebel33]

Has anyone tried using an integtated 4X4 dog box like the X-trac used by Mitsubishi and others in the dakar for driving a rear axle with a rear engine? these boxes are supposed to handle quite a lot of torque and they would be very compact compared to a conventional automatic tranny+vdrive.

heres a pic, and info:
http://www.xtrac.com/pdfs/270%20Cross%20Country%20Rally%20Gearbox.pdf

[FABRICATOR]

That's a nice setup, but it's nowhere near big enough for a TT.

[partybarge_pilot]

Thats pretty much what Joulson has in the TT.

[FABRICATOR]

Is it pretty much xtrac or pretty much not xtrac? :p

[partybarge_pilot]

Xtrac, slighlty different model. They had one sitting on display at Primm. Didn't see if it was out at Laughlin.

I like the sliding yoke, no more slip joint on the D/S.

[rebel33]

Thats pretty much what Joulson has in the TT.

Do you mean the blue Jimco TT? (forgive me I'm far away and not completely familiar with all the names...) in this article: (http://www.dirtnewz.com/features/jimco-1-7-06.shtml)
http://www.dirtnewz.com/features/jimco-1-7-06.shtml

Is it rear engined with this kind of tranny mounted backwards? anyone has better pics as the ones on dirtnews.com don't blow up for some reason...

[partybarge_pilot]

Mid mounted like a normal V-drive truck. Instead of having a seperate V-drive it has what looks like a modified transfer case. The output shaft can be fliped to run out the front or rear.

[FABRICATOR]

No wonder it didn't ring a bell, I thought that truck just had a transaxle. The linked article says it's a xtrac 383 6-speed.

"This is a new Off Road gearbox designed for events such as the Baja 1000. It is built on technology Xtrac has gained from many years of desert and off-road racing in events such as the legendary Dakar Rally.

Drive is fed from Dakar proven gear ratios, into a hypoid final drive spiral bevel gear set, out via a differential to (935) flanges only 8.66" (220mm) wide.

Value engineered to meet strict cost constraints within this formula, this gearbox offers the highest quality at a cost effective price."

http://www.xtrac.com/enlarge/383%20Gearbox.jpg

[Mr. V-Driver]

Weren't those on RG's website a while back?

Some here direct from Mr. V-Driver:

"...Hewitts soon to be built, making his
own frame., thats the square plate with my bro's arm in the pic."

"front and back of Jessie's V-drive, similar to the one's
that the other guys run."

Although guys might use some other configurations, the Casale V-Drive is becoming a reckoning force in TT competition. Billet or Cast, the choice is yours.;)

[Jess@HighAngle]

what spline count and diameter is coming out ? Jess

[Jess@HighAngle]

THat box is 45k- not cost effective- Jess

[randomracer]

The small oil volume thing seems a simple fix to me. Use a single stage dry sump pump driven off either shaft to pump oil thru a cooler. Or use a dry sump pump on the engine with an extra stage and plumb to it to pump the oil thru a cooler.
If you made it a 2 stage pump you could include a small dry sump style tank.
Scavange out of the bottom of the case & return right where the gears start to mesh.

Those V-12's or their cousins were also used in P-51's & Spitfires.

no the allison was in the mustang 1st then they put the rolls merlin in it thats what made it such a great plane.i wasnt aware that thet put those allisons in pt boats, not sure they did ...

[randomracer]

i just read that the motors in the pt boats were packard v12 which is a merlin built under licience. i learn something new all the time but the rest about 3 motors and 4500 hp and gas guzzlers same sthing