S.C.O.R.E. Helmet Rules

[pwcfan]

I know alot of you guys/gals race in S.C.O.R.E. The rule change having to do with "M" rated helmets is quite a problem in the M.O.R.E. series. Alot of us run Shoei helmets, that we purchased through P.C.I. A bunch of us purchased our helmets in the last 12 months. In M.O.R.E. we are "grass-roots" racing. We run on very tight budgets. To purchase new helmets is a large expense.

P.C.I. said they have been fighting S.C.O.R.E. on this issue. It just seems odd that the rules were not "flowed down" to the rest of us, and that they kept selling the helmets, even though they we fighting the ruling to get it extended. I would be nice if S.C.O.R.E. would give us at least another year on "M" (Shoei) helmets.

My opinion only.
Regards, John Sullivan

[LIL TUCKA]

I had that same problem with my helmet to. The helmet i switched to was the IMPACT helmet it is light. I think it has a big enough visor to see out and all that good stuff well hope you get your problem solved.
LIL TUCKA

[Desert_Roller]

Last time I talked to Scott the only thing not clear about M rated helmets was would they be allowed after 2010, M rated helmets are SCORE legal until 2010.

M rated helmets are certified after taking a flat impact test. SA rated helmets take a point impact test ie: roll bar or tubing. SA rated helmets also have a Nomex lining. M rated helmets have a larger visor opening with a better field of view.

The debate always seems to be which one is best or offers more protection? Each rating has their own pros and cons. If flame resistance is a issue wear a balaclava (Nomex head sock) with a M rated helmet.

PCI stocks both M and SA rated helmets. Try each one on and decide for yourself which helmet offers the fit and protection you need.

Here is the rule directly from the SCORE 2006 - 2010 rule book, page 23. Or look at the SCORE website under Tech Notes.

CR1 HELMETS
Helmets used in four-wheel vehicles must meet the following requirements; Snell memorial foundation, SA2000, SA2005, M2000 or M2005 with a legible Snell sticker attached, FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legible FIA sticker attached.

SCORE recommends each helmet be labeled (painted) with the driver/riders name, blood type, allergies, or any other medical information.

[GlamisGurlie]

Hi Tom... Just wanted to clarify something if I may on the helmet issue... On the SCORE Tech Notes page, it does state what you posted above, but above that, it also states:

2006-2010 SCORE INTERNATIONAL TECHNICAL RULE BOOK

The following are some, but not all of the new rules in the 2006-2010 SCORE International Rule & Regulations book. The new and complete 2006-2010 will be available soon. These rules will take effect on April 1, 2006.

Once the SCORE 2006-2010 Rule Book was published, the following is the ammended version and SCORE legal version of the helmet rule:

SCORE Rule Book, page 23, CR1 Helmets: Helmets used in four-wheel vehicles must meet the following requirements: Snell memorial foundation, SA2000, Sa2005, M2000 and M2005 with a legible Snell sticker attached. FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legible FIA sticker attached. The "M" helmets will be dropped from the four-wheel classes as of January 1, 2008. Motorcycle and ATV's must meet the following requirements: Snell memorial foundation, M2000 or M2005, with a legible Snell sticker attached, FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legibile FIA sticker attached. FIA BSI 6658 Type A. See page 149. SCORE recomends each helmet be labeled (painted) with the driver/riders name, blood type, allergies, or any other special medical information. Straps must have "D" rings, no snaps.

It's not just the fire and impact rating that sets the "M" and "SA" series helmets apart... It's also the snap-on shield and shield thickness. The snap-on shields are known to pop off during a rollover or when impacted by something, so if your car rolls over, your shield pops off and there is a fire or debris (tools or what not) flying around, there is nothing to protect your eyes and face... The issue is actually much more complex than just wearing a Nomex sock under your helmet... I spoke at great length with PCI yesterday for about a half hour on this and in no way, shape or form are the "M" series helmets going to be legal as of January 1, 2008 in SCORE, which is the sanctioning body we all follow regarding safety and class rules and regs... There are so many cross-over racers from one series to the next that it only makes sense (especially where safety is involved) for all race series' to adapt the same codes and rules... My Tech Director at BITD spoke with me about this when it first came up and asked my opinion (as this is one of my areas with BITD)... we agreed to follow SCORE's guidelines and started telling teams about this when they came through in mid 2006 so they could prepare ...

When all is said and done, it comes down to this - what is your head worth?

[9rocky]

Last time I talked to Scott the only thing not clear about M rated helmets was would they be allowed after 2010, M rated helmets are SCORE legal until 2010.

M rated helmets are certified after taking a flat impact test. SA rated helmets take a point impact test ie: roll bar or tubing. SA rated helmets also have a Nomex lining. M rated helmets have a larger visor opening with a better field of view.

The debate always seems to be which one is best or offers more protection? Each rating has their own pros and cons. If flame resistance is a issue wear a balaclava (Nomex head sock) with a M rated helmet.

PCI stocks both M and SA rated helmets. Try each one on and decide for yourself which helmet offers the fit and protection you need.

Here is the rule directly from the SCORE 2006 - 2010 rule book, page 23. Or look at the SCORE website under Tech Notes.

CR1 HELMETS
Helmets used in four-wheel vehicles must meet the following requirements; Snell memorial foundation, SA2000, SA2005, M2000 or M2005 with a legible Snell sticker attached, FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legible FIA sticker attached.

SCORE recommends each helmet be labeled (painted) with the driver/riders name, blood type, allergies, or any other medical information.

ARTS tech people are ADAMENTLY telling everyone that the M helmets can NOT be used after the 2007 season. Since they do tech for MORE, SNORE, and MDR, it seems pretty clear that for these people, they are screwed.

[9rocky]

Hi Tom... Just wanted to clarify something if I may on the helmet issue... On the SCORE Tech Notes page, it does state what you posted above, but above that, it also states:

2006-2010 SCORE INTERNATIONAL TECHNICAL RULE BOOK

The following are some, but not all of the new rules in the 2006-2010 SCORE International Rule & Regulations book. The new and complete 2006-2010 will be available soon. These rules will take effect on April 1, 2006.

Once the SCORE 2006-2010 Rule Book was published, the following is the ammended version and SCORE legal version of the helmet rule:

SCORE Rule Book, page 23, CR1 Helmets: Helmets used in four-wheel vehicles must meet the following requirements: Snell memorial foundation, SA2000, Sa2005, M2000 and M2005 with a legible Snell sticker attached. FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legible FIA sticker attached. The "M" helmets will be dropped from the four-wheel classes as of January 1, 2008. Motorcycle and ATV's must meet the following requirements: Snell memorial foundation, M2000 or M2005, with a legible Snell sticker attached, FIA Standard 8860-2004, with a legibile FIA sticker attached. FIA BSI 6658 Type A. See page 149. SCORE recomends each helmet be labeled (painted) with the driver/riders name, blood type, allergies, or any other special medical information. Straps must have "D" rings, no snaps.

It's not just the fire and impact rating that sets the "M" and "SA" series helmets apart... It's also the snap-on shield and shield thickness. The snap-on shields are known to pop off during a rollover or when impacted by something, so if your car rolls over, your shield pops off and there is a fire or debris (tools or what not) flying around, there is nothing to protect your eyes and face... The issue is actually much more complex than just wearing a Nomex sock under your helmet... I spoke at great length with PCI yesterday for about a half hour on this and in no way, shape or form are the "M" series helmets going to be legal as of January 1, 2008 in SCORE, which is the sanctioning body we all follow regarding safety and class rules and regs... There are so many cross-over racers from one series to the next that it only makes sense (especially where safety is involved) for all race series' to adapt the same codes and rules... My Tech Director at BITD spoke with me about this when it first came up and asked my opinion (as this is one of my areas with BITD)... we agreed to follow SCORE's guidelines and started telling teams about this when they came through in mid 2006 so they could prepare ...

When all is said and done, it comes down to this - what is your head worth?

Jamie,

I do not think it comes down to "what do people think their head is worth". I think it comes down to the fact that companies are selling helmets to people that think they are doing the right thing, and that they think can be used for 10 years without being told that they will be no good after this year. One of our co-riders just bought a helmet the week before the More race, was not told that it would be no good after 2007. At tech he was told that it was "no good in 08". How does this kid feel, thinking he was doing the right thing, to be told that the $500 he just spent was basically useless. I think he is thinking, what is my head worth because I am stupid, and I just got duped by a company that is supposed to be reputable in the off road world.

[PLS]

While I feel bad for the people with M rated helmets, I am one of them, this came up over a year ago. There was a temporary extension on their use, but it seemed pretty clear this change was going to happen. I'm surprised that so many people weren't aware of this. It was widely discussed here on RDC. If I had been buying a helmet in the last year, it would only have been SA for this very reason.

[cvc motorsports]

While I feel bad for the people with M rated helmets, I am one of them, this came up over a year ago. There was a temporary extension on their use, but it seemed pretty clear this change was going to happen. I'm surprised that so many people weren't aware of this. It was widely discussed here on RDC. If I had been buying a helmet in the last year, it would only have been SA for this very reason.

I completely agree with this statement. I also have to buy a new helmet next year. I feel it would have been good business for these companies to take these helmets off the market and not sell them as they know they are worthless in a year!

[Desert_Roller]

Jamie you are on top of it once again. My post was from a discussion at least 3-4 months ago, I had no knowledge that the rules had been changed again.

[pwcfan]

Just for giggles I am worth more dead than alive.......my "complaint" is that these "reputable" companies contiued to sell us all helmets with no discalimer or otherwise.........I just do what I am advised to do by fellow racers and the M.O.R.E. tech info, which, to this day does not mention this issue !

It is not about "how much is my head worth"......it is about good business practices and ethical responsibilities.

Again, it will not hamper my racing..........it may others at my level of competition.

Regards, John Sullivan

[GlamisGurlie]

Jamie,

I do not think it comes down to "what do people think their head is worth". I think it comes down to the fact that companies are selling helmets to people that think they are doing the right thing, and that they think can be used for 10 years without being told that they will be no good after this year. One of our co-riders just bought a helmet the week before the More race, was not told that it would be no good after 2007. At tech he was told that it was "no good in 08". How does this kid feel, thinking he was doing the right thing, to be told that the $500 he just spent was basically useless. I think he is thinking, what is my head worth because I am stupid, and I just got duped by a company that is supposed to be reputable in the off road world.

I've heard quite a few stories about people buying helmets (even recently) and were not told about the new rule going into effect by the sales person... They ask for a Shoei and that's what they are sold, instead of the sales person asking what it is going to be used for, i.e. desert racing, pre-running, play, CORR or what have you, and then if it's for desert racing, they aren't told that they needed an SA rated helmet, which Shoei does not manufacture... There are a lot of racers who haven't raced for a while or are new to the sport who don't read the internet (imagine that LOL) or are just out of the loop and have no clue about this rule, so they are at the mercy of the retailers to know the rules and guide them in purchasing the correct equipment... Hopefully these companies will educate their sales people or possibly have someone double check all helmet orders and call the person to ensure that the buyer is aware of the rule if they are using it for desert racing... A little time spent doing that is much better than the phone calls from irate customers who feel they were "duped"...

I think the majority of the sanctioning bodies are doing their part and have been to inform the racers that this change is coming and to be prepared... I know of this to be true for the 3 series I am personally involved with... It really is a shame for all those teams who bought new helmets and won't be able to use them after '07...

[sweetdevil]

Sorry guys, Tom has been out of the loop since the whole SA rated thing came about. When the rule was changed, it was to take effect this year = 2007. Scott asked Savage to change it for 2010, as it made a little more sense to switch with the Snell ratings coming up expired too, and gave racers (and manufacturers) some more time to adjust to such an abrupt switch. We were only successful in getting the rule changed to 2008.

Here's some information to help try and clear things up for those who are confused.

We have this posted on our website and have told everyone we could as soon as we knew about this rule change, especially those calling in to buy new helmets. SCORE is the only one who has officially posted anything or printed it in a rule book. As of my research on 3/28, no other sanctioning bodies have posted anything official, all M rated helmets are still allowed and some sites even say M90 with no mention of any changes for '08! PCI has tried very hard to educate everyone who calls in wanting to buy the Shoei about the new rule because we figured all other sanctioning bodies would follow suit with SCORE. We apologize for any miscommunications or confusion about the rule, but please know this wasn't our idea at all!

What is SA and M rating? The difference is the SA rated helmet has a thicker (more expensive) shield, it screws on to the helmet, (not snap/clip), has a smaller shield opening, (less visibility), a fire retardant liner and different impact test ratings. Unfortunately, M rated helmets cannot be certified or changed to anything else. Just like a SNELL 95 cannot be recertified just because you used it once.

The Shoei helmet has been the #1 off road helmet because it is lightweight (lighter than the new carbon fiber HJC), inexpensive, and the most comfortable helmet on the market in most racers eyes. We are very sad to see this rule changed because of comfort and supply issues. We have asked Shoei to build an SA rated helmet, but the market is not large enough to start a new factory. HJC has a lot of production issues with stopping M rated production to build SA rated helmet. It's a much smaller market and most manufacturers don't make near as much as they do on the other helmets.

PCI still carries Shoei helmets for Prerunner helmets, CORR racers and sand car enthusiasts. It is still the most comfortable helmet.

Second to the Shoei in comfort is the HJC helmet. PCI has the HJC AR10 RaceAirSA helmet for $459.95, wired for intercom and blown for the RaceAir system. The most cost effective helmet, the Pyrotect is $399.95 wired and blown. This helmet is a bit heavier than the HJC, but it's a very cost effective helmet.

What do we do if we purchased helmets last year? Unfortunatly, it's one of those things that are out of our (I'm speaking as a fellow racer) control, just like other controversial tech rulings like tube size, firewalls, etc. It's something sanctioning bodies do with safety and liability in mind and it's our responsibility as the racer to know the rules and adhere to them. CORR racers had to buy new helmets because they are requiring closed face helmets now. Most racers purchased open face helmets last year. Another expensive one? CORR and MMR (Trophy Karts) are all required to run a $450 D Cell head restraint. So for 90% of CORR racers, that's a $1000 new investment on stuff they already had last season too.

There are 4 racers that work for us, and we're all in the same boat, I/we all have to buy new helmets too.

There is still one problem I can't solve and if anyone has any info on would be great. I have four racers who only fit into the XXX-Large Shoei. All SA manufacturers only make a XX-Large and it's not big enough. FIA-CIK helmets from Europe are two sizes smaller (I guess us Americans have big heads!) and I cant find anything that fits. Savage said we have to keep shopping, there has to be something somewhere and he said he's going to ask around, but if anyone has any info or has a big noggin and has found a solution, please let me know so I can help these guys out too.

If you have any other questions at all, please contact myself or Jimmy at 562-427-8177 or my email is rhiannon@pciraceradios.com to help clear up misinformations about what is and what can be an SA rated helmet.

I will try to do whatever we can to help about this, please know we are not the bad guy here. PCI has educated so many racers and dealers about this. I have two suggestions for the racers in a bind, and I am open to more and want to help! I suggest that the sanctioning bodies who have not posted anything maybe give their racers more time as SCORE posted this last April, and there is still nothing official from the others? Only passing through tech...

The other suggestion is a way to get the racers in touch with the sand car guys who are just going too fast for headsets anymore. Also, all CORR racers now need closed face helmets, the open face helmets they purchased last year are no good this year.

For the CORR market, I'm willing to put your M rated helmet in the trailer at the next CORR race with a discounted price on it if you want to bring it by and pick it up. The inner liners are all washable, so clean up your helmet and drop it off at the trailer, we will take absolutely no commission, we just want to help you get some $$ if you are having a hard time with having to buy a new helmet right now.

For the sand guys, season is over, so it's best to wait until August/September, but let me see if we can get additional space at the Sand Sports Super Show, and we will do the same thing, bring your helmet by and see if we can help you sell them. Again, wash the inner liners, use some car wax and shine it up, and maybe we can make this sting a little less??? I need to check into the Sand Show thing, but the CORR offer is valid and stands for April 20th race in Lancaster.

Again, call Jimmy or myself if you need anything.

[9rocky]

I've heard quite a few stories about people buying helmets (even recently) and were not told about the new rule going into effect by the sales person... They ask for a Shoei and that's what they are sold, instead of the sales person asking what it is going to be used for, i.e. desert racing, pre-running, play, CORR or what have you, and then if it's for desert racing, they aren't told that they needed an SA rated helmet, which Shoei does not manufacture... There are a lot of racers who haven't raced for a while or are new to the sport who don't read the internet (imagine that LOL) or are just out of the loop and have no clue about this rule, so they are at the mercy of the retailers to know the rules and guide them in purchasing the correct equipment... Hopefully these companies will educate their sales people or possibly have someone double check all helmet orders and call the person to ensure that the buyer is aware of the rule if they are using it for desert racing... A little time spent doing that is much better than the phone calls from irate customers who feel they were "duped"...

I think the majority of the sanctioning bodies are doing their part and have been to inform the racers that this change is coming and to be prepared... I know of this to be true for the 3 series I am personally involved with... It really is a shame for all those teams who bought new helmets and won't be able to use them after '07...

Good post Jamie, that is exactly the point. Let's say someone goes into a off road store in Corona. They ask for a wired race full face helmet. They are directed to a stack of about 50 of them, and trust that they got the latest and greatest up to date and up to snuff for the new rules. Or, they are trying to tech their car, go up to a vendor and ask for a wired race helmet, again, they would expect the latest and greatest up to date per the rules. I guess it is buyer beware.

[BeanerBoy]

People keep making the comment about what your head is worth... A shoei helmet cost more than a HJC or a cheap Pyrotec helmet??? I was just curious how the M helmets are so bad when they are DOT approved, is a SA helmet?? I feel the company that has been selling these flower pots,mailboxes, piss pots or whatever else we can find to use them for should at very least give us discounts on our new helmets that can actually be used for racing!!!

[sweetdevil]

SNORE989 - I'm offering a solution. I know you didn't buy that helmet from PCI and I know it's not a PCI helmet. But this offer is open to you also.

Please stop being so negative. The 'flower pots' are top quality helmets for many racers. Just because you race in a sanctioning body that told you last month it is not legal does not make the helmet a bad helmet. It's just bad for your application. The miscommunications have been a problem, let's try to fix it and let's try and help you get your helmet sold to someone else who bought a "piss pot" with an open face last year for their racing series. Blame and be negative all you want, it's not going to make MORE change the ruling or make Parker Pumper buy your helmet back. I'm offering a solution to help you, take it and market your helmet as a valuable safety product with one race on it, (not a mailbox) it will sell better in two weeks at CORR!!!

[BeanerBoy]

I bought it from Mckenzies and it is a PCI helmet!!!

[sweetdevil]

I bought it from Mckenzies and it is a PCI helmet!!!

I'm sorry SNORE989 - I thought you were Steve on the MORE website because of the same 'piss pot' reference. Is the helmet used? I will take back a helmet that is new in the box and exchange it for an SA rated helmet. If not, please take me up on the offer to help you sell it. Give me a call please.

[BeanerBoy]

Thanks for the help SWEETDEVIL, I'll start cleaning the helmet up!!

[5racer]

I'm sorry SNORE989 - I thought you were Steve on the MORE website because of the same 'piss pot' reference. Is the helmet used? I will take back a helmet that is new in the box and exchange it for an SA rated helmet. If not, please take me up on the offer to help you sell it. Give me a call please.

'im steve ' im not going to get all excited yet tell i talk to parker pumper ,but i do know this they need to train there staff better because i requested a sa2005 when me and co-dog walked in there show room . the counter lady pulled the helmet out of box looked inside and said yup 2005 good for 11 years .it was there for 2 weeks for wireing and delivered to the parker 425 race on tech day so i know that someone had to see that is was a m rated helmet .not one phone call to me about this .the pci wiring was already in helmet i had rlh wiring added to the helmet also plus new hi-def shield .i paid more for the shoie than there other helmets that were sa rated .but like i said il see what parker pumper will do before i get excited .but i do know this there are a lot of racers that very un-happy about this ,and will think twice about who they do buisness with in the future .very sad deal here .

ps i had no idea that shoie was a m rated helmet ,meaning motorcycle rated i take it .what i cant figure out is how many people have seen freash air systems on a motorcycle i never have. .corect me if im wrong on the m rateing

[sweetdevil]

Steve - I'm really surprised as Parker Pumper has always been very strong about recommending SA rated helmets. See if they can do anything, and like I said, you're welcome to send your helmet in too.

On a side note about the PCI and RLH wiring, Parker Pumper does not buy helmets from PCI, so they are not wired "PCI." Don't be confused with "PCI wiring" and "Off Road wiring."

'PCI wiring' uses exclusive microphones and cabling and wires microphones and speakers flush in the chin piece instead of the boom mic. 'PCI wiring' is custom, not a kit, takes days not weeks, and is backed by support at the races. Most 'Off road wiring' is less expensive, with a boom mic glued in helmets, similar to the do-it-yourself kits listed on our website.

On your next helmet, if you need an RLH adapter for an old RLH intercom, we have those available also.

[Jay10]

Best Open Cockpit helmet made!
http://www.bellracing.com/productdetail.asp?sec=product&catid=3&prodid=9#

[ppumper]

I try to stay out of this mud slinging crap. But after a few phone call's telling me we are getting thrown under the buss, here we go!

Steve, YOU were told about the SA rule By LIZ " the counter lady" I know this because she called my cell many times about you wanting these helmets instead of HJC or Simpson. The two weeks you waited were for many reasons, some on our part,some on your part, some on the fact your co-dogs wife called and canceled his order and then changed there minds again. There were issues with wiring your helmets also, issues I will not go into now. YOU were called a few times during the 2 weeks, a fact I commented on to you at Parker when you picked them up! The 'being good for 11 years', don't know where that came from, we have told customers that SCORE runs about 10 years before you are required to get a new one. It all dependes on when you buy a helmet during a snell cycle on how long it will be good for. If you have a problem with MY company, give me the opportunity to resolve it first. If you are not happy after that with the out come then you can come here to ***** to the offroad world. MY TOLL FREE number is 800-700-2350.

sweet devil, our stuff comes from the same place, yes we use a boom mic, and it's a kit, what about it. some people like it. as far as offroad wire vs PCI wiring, give me a break! We have a habbit of saying PCI wiring instead of saying PCI compatable wiring, what's the big deal. You are welcome to have Scott or Jimmy call me if they feel the need.

Harold Nicks
Parker Pumper/BSR West

[sweetdevil]

Harold, it was not meant to you specifically. Avcomm kits are not the same as what we do to helmets. Some people do like and request a mic on a boom, I never disputed it or belittled it. It's what we use in Motorcycle helmets because the mouth peice is farther away from the lips. Our custom flush mount parts do not come from the same stork.

There is a big deal about saying you have PCI wiring. PCI has worked very hard to provide the highest level of communications, installations in helmets and dealer network of PCI authorized dealers. There's nothing wrong with people understanding that "Wired PCI" doesn't mean it's a PCI product or it's a PCI dealer. "Off Road wiring" as the manufacturer calls it, or PCI compatible, is more appropriate. There is another company that is using PCI part numbers on their website to capitalize off the PCI name and standards and our racers should know the difference. Sorry, I do think it is a big deal. PCI is from PCI. Off Road wiring is another product that is compatible with intercoms. We've put just as much work into "PCI" as you have "Parker Pumper," it would be like us calling our RaceAir system Parker Pumpers to try and capitalize off the market you have created.

I am not slinging mud at anyone. People have said negative things and we're in the same boat you are - this rule wasn't our idea and we have educated people to the best of our knowledge with the rules we have knowledge of!

[Tacochase]

This thread is getting good!
:eek:

[AZ1600]

This is a very frustrating topic for everyone involved, Racers, Retailers, and Promoters.

Point 1. I'm not throwing rocks at anyone, but, some of the retailers of Shoei helmets who sell these at races (where I bought mine) and advertise on this as well as other sites, (where my wife bought her's) knew months ago, (last summer, at least), that this SCORE rule change was coming, but unless you read RDC and look at every thread in every topic, you proabably did not know what was going on. So did they (the retailers that we trust becasue they are a part of the racing community), do as good a job as we the consumer would have liked in thier communication of this impending/proabable change during the selling cycle, (we bought two in the past 20 months and both times were told that we had at least 5 years before we had to replace them)? I don't know, because I can't say that the retailers we bought them from knew for sure, when we bought our helmets that this rule change was imminate, but, some could become frustrated at this point and think that they did, and just wanted to sell the stock that they had.

Point 2. We've raced MDR, MORE and BITD with these helmets and as of yet NO One has told me that these helmets will be no good next year.
I don't read every topic on RDC, (sorry Klaus), so the first I ever heard of this was at the last MORE race a couple of weeks ago when "9ROCKY" asked me if the Tech guys told me that my helmets were going to be No Good next year. They had not, and we went through Tech right behind them, and they know that one of our helmets was bought at Kartek the very same day that they bought theirs. So there is another point of frustration, how is this rule being implemented by the various race promoters who typically use SCORE rules. Jim@MORE has not commented yet, and I do trust that he will, and I'm OK with what ever he wants to do or Casey@BITD, or whom ever else. If they feel that this is the best thing and I want to race with them, then I either buy new helmets or race CORR.

So I hope that you as retailers of Helmets, and you who promote these events can understand some of the frustration points of us racers and just please vow to help the whole Off-Road familia and do a better job of communicating these changes in the future, we would all appreciate it.

Point 3. Oh Yea, Since it looks as though My Wife and I will be buying each other new helmets for Christmas, (as it appears many others will as well), we WILL BE looking for the best deal, and at this point in time have no loyallity to any of the "AS ADVERTISED ON RDC" vendors due to this.

[ppumper]

Tacochase that is just the reason I do my best to stay off this board. I want everybody to know that my decision to stop selling "m" rated helmets was do to things like shields popping off when hit just right, coming back in and cutting people in the face. Yes I have sold a few M rated helmets in the past year and a half, but only to those who didn't care and wanted them. I still have a few sitting on a shelf in the back corner of the warehouse, and could care less if I have them forever. I have been involved in this industry for about 19 years. Kind of set in my ways and sometimes grumpy. Loyalty that's a strong word! I like to think that people like us have it. I sell allot of different products not just helmets, and not to the offroad world, But offroad is where I started and I plan to keep bringing new safety devices into it from the other forms of motorsports that we are involved with. It's not just about the SALE. It's about safety. I sure that the rest of the promoters will soon follow inline with SCORE, so be ready for change. Look at it this way. If you are upside down fuel leaking, and a fire starts and the helmet you are wearing is nylon lined, your shoes are rubber and nylon and your mechanics gloves are rubber and imitation leather what do you think that will be like. Curt Leduc said it best "the technologie is there, shame on us for not using it". I'm done and off my soap box. Tear it up!

[dsms motorsports]

I'm sorry SNORE989 - I thought you were Steve on the MORE website because of the same 'piss pot' reference. Is the helmet used? I will take back a helmet that is new in the box and exchange it for an SA rated helmet. If not, please take me up on the offer to help you sell it. Give me a call please.

Well as my wife was heading to buy my Christmas gift DEC. 2006 I told her and she knows the 2008 ruling on helmets as ART told us long ago when I was still wearing the Xspeed, and to make sure it is the updated SCORE rules helmet and S___t told her yes so she bought it, when she gave it to me I never looked to see if it was an M or SA, I trusted that I spoke English clearly and so did she and we were good to go, I'm a little bit pissed! No I don't hate you guys! but if a customer comes in and you know for a fact that they are racers You could help by filling the customer in on the rules and the ratings ,Your company has done alot for racers so I haven't swayed but just remember = when you do something right , noone remembers. when you do something wrong most will never forget! we'll be talking soon.

[9rocky]

I think Terry (AZ 1600) said it best, "no one remembers when you do something right". PCI has served the off road community above and beyond the call of duty for years. Anyone heard of the Weatherman? We will use our helmets for pre running, giving people rides before the race, etc. No big deal for us. My concern was for the teams that are on a much tighter budget than we are. I know Rhiannon is very upset about this situation, and I am sure that PCI being the class act that they are, they will come up with a decent solution to appease the people that are upset. Maybe this time, everyone will remember when you do something right. Hang in there guys, and a couple years from now, this situation will be a horrible distant memory, and you will still be one of the only radio companies at every tech to be there to help the racers as you have allways done in the past.

Kevin Reid

[5racer]

I try to stay out of this mud slinging crap. But after a few phone call's telling me we are getting thrown under the buss, here we go!

Steve, YOU were told about the SA rule By LIZ " the counter lady" I know this because she called my cell many times about you wanting these helmets instead of HJC or Simpson. The two weeks you waited were for many reasons, some on our part,some on your part, some on the fact your co-dogs wife called and canceled his order and then changed there minds again. There were issues with wiring your helmets also, issues I will not go into now. YOU were called a few times during the 2 weeks, a fact I commented on to you at Parker when you picked them up! The 'being good for 11 years', don't know where that came from, we have told customers that SCORE runs about 10 years before you are required to get a new one. It all dependes on when you buy a helmet during a snell cycle on how long it will be good for. If you have a problem with MY company, give me the opportunity to resolve it first. If you are not happy after that with the out come then you can come here to ***** to the offroad world. MY TOLL FREE number is 800-700-2350.

sweet devil, our stuff comes from the same place, yes we use a boom mic, and it's a kit, what about it. some people like it. as far as offroad wire vs PCI wiring, give me a break! We have a habbit of saying PCI wiring instead of saying PCI compatable wiring, what's the big deal. You are welcome to have Scott or Jimmy call me if they feel the need.

Harold Nicks
Parker Pumper/BSR West

like i said im not getting all excited about this and i have no isues on how any of the wiring or time frame infact i called after i got back from parker and told liz what a great job you did .and i will call you this week on helmet im sure theres no prob on solveing this problem im in buisness also so i have seen both sides of every fence .and as far as my co- dog i would have told him to shove his helmet it realy mad me mad that he or should i say his wife pulled a stunt like that i apologize for that .

[5racer]

Steve, YOU were told about the SA rule By LIZ " the counter lady" I know this because she called my cell many times about you wanting these helmets instead of HJC or Simpson.

i knew about the sa rateing before i walked in ,when greeted i said im here to buy a new sa rated helmet .anyways this is between me and you and not the world i hate drama also

[MO'B MOTORSPORTS]

this is a little off topic but how can you tell the differnence between the helmets we just bought a new helmet from kartek and just wondering if we should return it

[bajaxp]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I was wondering what the BITD regs for the future will be. Are they going to SA in January of '08?

MP

[patcsg]

Okay, I am going to try to help with out making anyone mad.
I have been selling and painting helmets for 10 years. It has been my goal to make sure that racers were SAFE! And if they got the helmet painted, well, it was that much better.
You, the racer, must make it a priority to be safe. It needes to be on the top of the budget list. Research it just like you would if you were buying the latest greatest shocks, valves, tires, GPS or whatever! It is YOUR responsibility to know what you need.
Now I'll throw a little back at the helmet and safety equipment sellers out there. They have a responsibility to the racer to pull the pertinent info out of them. Find out what they race, where they race, what they have or don't have, and KNOW what they need.
I cannot understand why everyone looks for a "bargain" on there helmet. There is a very, very good possibility that you will wind up on your roof sometime in this sport. And the chance of fire is always there (Pastrana).
An SA approved helmet is the only option, even if it wasn't in the rule book. Don't take a chance.
There are quite a few options out there for SA approved, with or w/out forced air, helmets. They are not a "bargain" in price but it will be when it comes to your safety. Please call me if you have any questions I can answer. I will be happy to educate anyone that is willing to listen, even if you don't buy a helmet from me. As I stated before, MY GOAL IS YOUR SAFETY!

Pat Wilson

[PLS]

this is a little off topic but how can you tell the differnence between the helmets we just bought a new helmet from kartek and just wondering if we should return it

Look inside your helmet. There will be a sticker that says either M...., or SA..... You might need to push some of the padding out of the way. This is what the tech guys are looking at when they check the inside of your helmet.

[AZ45]

This topic has been re-run more than Law & Order.
Here’s UPR’s 2 cents…again.

We will not sell a motorcycle helmet to a car racer, never have; never will. We’ve missed sales because of it, but we don’t need the money bad enough to compromise safety. The Shoei is as stated, a quality comfortable lightweight helmet, but it was not designed for auto racing and that’s how it’s rated. PCI does a great job and I’m sure Shoei helmets have saved many lives, but we need to turn the corner and start getting the off road racers safety standards elevated to that of most other forms auto racing.

There’s a reason there are SA and M rated helmets available, just like there are helmets rated for skiing, biking riding, lacrosse, hockey, boat racing and a go kart racing.


You can buy and American made Bell M2 for about the same price as the Chinese Pyrotect, we have both but recommended the Bell because it’s built better. Don’t let anyone tell you that Bell and Pyrotect come from the same place, because they don’t.
I would STRONGLY argue the weight advantage of the Shoei motorcycle helmet over other upper end auto racing helmets like the HJC Carbon, Bell Vortex or the Arai GP5 with a UPR Pumper system. A 3mm thick shield for a Bell Auto Racing helmet is 42.00, the Shoei 2mm shield is about the same last time I checked.

We’ve wired many helmets with the Avcomm kit, as well as from individual parts when needed, done correctly they both work. We think the microphone works better mounted on the flex-boom located as close to your mouth as possible as it was designed at the factory.

Not to speak for Harold, but like us I think his strong opinions on safety equipment come from his experience and knowledge in servicing other forms of motorsports. Next time you’re watching CUP, ALMS, Champ Car, NASCAR or any other pro racing on TV, let me know if you see a driver wearing a motorcycle helmet, and I’ll give you free SA rated helmet.

[patcsg]

Well said Jeff! I wish I had thought of the free helmet deal! HA!
Pat

[MO'B MOTORSPORTS]

Look inside your helmet. There will be a sticker that says either M...., or SA..... You might need to push some of the padding out of the way. This is what the tech guys are looking at when they check the inside of your helmet.

the helmet has a sticker that says m2005 is that the one

[ML Racer]

I'm sure glad I got my custum paint job done on my M-rated brain bucket just before Laughlin!

[patcsg]

It will need to say SA2000 or SA2005! The SA stands for "Special Application". These will be Nomex, Carbon X or another fire retardant material.

[PLS]

the helmet has a sticker that says m2005 is that the one

The M2005 is the motorcycle rated helmet. It will have to be replaced next year.

[Uncle_Bob]

Posted today on the MORE web site by Jim:

Helmets must meet the following requirements, Snell memorial foundation SA2000, SA2005, M2000, or M2005 with a legible Snell sticker attached. This rule is good to the end of 2009.

[Jerry Zaiden]

I talked to Casey at BITD yesterday and he said there is not change in mind until 2009 or even longer.

[Jerry Zaiden]

This topic has been re-run more than Law & Order.
Here’s UPR’s 2 cents…again.

We will not sell a motorcycle helmet to a car racer, never have; never will. We’ve missed sales because of it, but we don’t need the money bad enough to compromise safety. The Shoei is as stated, a quality comfortable lightweight helmet, but it was not designed for auto racing and that’s how it’s rated. PCI does a great job and I’m sure Shoei helmets have saved many lives, but we need to turn the corner and start getting the off road racers safety standards elevated to that of most other forms auto racing.

There’s a reason there are SA and M rated helmets available, just like there are helmets rated for skiing, biking riding, lacrosse, hockey, boat racing and a go kart racing.


You can buy and American made Bell M2 for about the same price as the Chinese Pyrotect, we have both but recommended the Bell because it’s built better. Don’t let anyone tell you that Bell and Pyrotect come from the same place, because they don’t.
I would STRONGLY argue the weight advantage of the Shoei motorcycle helmet over other upper end auto racing helmets like the HJC Carbon, Bell Vortex or the Arai GP5 with a UPR Pumper system. A 3mm thick shield for a Bell Auto Racing helmet is 42.00, the Shoei 2mm shield is about the same last time I checked.

We’ve wired many helmets with the Avcomm kit, as well as from individual parts when needed, done correctly they both work. We think the microphone works better mounted on the flex-boom located as close to your mouth as possible as it was designed at the factory.

Not to speak for Harold, but like us I think his strong opinions on safety equipment come from his experience and knowledge in servicing other forms of motorsports. Next time you’re watching CUP, ALMS, Champ Car, NASCAR or any other pro racing on TV, let me know if you see a driver wearing a motorcycle helmet, and I’ll give you free SA rated helmet.

VERY WELL SAID....