Alternate Locations

[Ferrari333SP]

Well I saw there was a thread about the Budapest starting point, but I thought I'd make an entirely new thread about locations for the race in the future. Obviously this race is based around Dakar, but with this whole situation now, that might not be possible in the future. So now we might be looking at a name change for this rally. Considering this rally is famous for going through terrain with lots of sand, rock, and dirt, it would only be fitting for the rally to have the same types of terrain in another location. So, pulling out my National Geographic world map poster, there are a few possibilities that I'll list here. Add some more, discuss them, whatever. Let's think of the exciting possibilities for the future.

1. Somewhere in the south west US(not sure how that would work with increasing population in the area)
2. Southern Africa, in the countries of Angola, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, and South Africa.
3. Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Turkey. Have no idea what the politics or ethnicities of the region are, but a rally here would be interesting. Turky would be questionable.
4. Australia. Dealing with the environmentalists would be interesting. But there are LARGE swaths of land in Australia of absolute nothing for miles in any direction. Could be a problem getting privateers down there, as Australia is a long plane ride from anywhere.
5. Gobi desert in China and Mongolia. This is probably one of the best possibilities at the moment I think. China is awash in money right now, so I believe they could provide the security and support to make a rally possible. And there have been rallies in that region before, so it wouldn't be like starting in a completely new area like the other locations. Problem is though, you have to go far into Asia just to reach it. Not sure where the starting and finishing city would be, but there are a few possibities.

Off the top of my head and after looking at the map, thats what I can think of. Having a new location could breath new life into the rally, although the record number of entrants this year suggests new life isn't exactly needed, but with the latest events, a new location wouldn't hurt at all.

[Icewalker]

I'll go with the Gobi desert. But I would also add that (Sal are you listening) North America needs a RAID.

[RGFan]

Start in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, Tahoe maybe, go south. Get to 29 Palms and haul arse North East, East, South East, somewhere East, lots of desert there, maybe include a run around the Grand Canyon/Lake Powell region, end it in Texas or a Plains state.

[Total Loss]

The Artic
Isn't all the ice melting from the burning of race fuel?

Seriously- Australia really intrigues me.
They hate terrorists and have a huge desert.
I may be able to talk my wife into an outback vacation.

[Ferrari333SP]

Listening to the Toby Moody interview on Rallyradio, he mentioned possibly a joint race with the Baja 1000; that would be interesting, although the Baja peninsula itself is a little limiting in terms of the amount of land they could run on over a week or so. Going into the rest of Mexico would be interesting. Have no idea how safe Mexico as a whole is though.

Also, I see Argentina and Chile on the map. The Atacama desert down there is pretty barren, although not quite as much sand as Africa, but that would be interesting. Gobi desert seems to be the most recognizable desert at the moment from the possibilities.

[Icewalker]

Listening to the Toby Moody interview on Rallyradio, he mentioned possibly a joint race with the Baja 1000; that would be interesting, although the Baja peninsula itself is a little limiting in terms of the amount of land they could run on over a week or so. Going into the rest of Mexico would be interesting. Have no idea how safe Mexico as a whole is though.

Also, I see Argentina and Chile on the map. The Atacama desert down there is pretty barren, although not quite as much sand as Africa, but that would be interesting. Gobi desert seems to be the most recognizable desert at the moment from the possibilities.

I think there is already one s.a. raid at the moment in Brazil. I'd like to see more ... I still say there should be a winter raid ;) But that's just me ... someone find be a killer B I can afford :D

[RGFan]

Listening to the Toby Moody interview on Rallyradio, he mentioned possibly a joint race with the Baja 1000; that would be interesting, although the Baja peninsula itself is a little limiting in terms of the amount of land they could run on over a week or so. Going into the rest of Mexico would be interesting. Have no idea how safe Mexico as a whole is though.

Also, I see Argentina and Chile on the map. The Atacama desert down there is pretty barren, although not quite as much sand as Africa, but that would be interesting. Gobi desert seems to be the most recognizable desert at the moment from the possibilities.

THey are having very similar issues down there as well with Islamic Fundamentalists. Hell, Venezuela is practically in bed with Iran, not to mention the drug cartels down there. I like the Mexico idea, but after hearing about some of the nightmares at the 1000, I do not know if that would be viable.

[PMAZ7]

The Artic
Isn't all the ice melting from the burning of race fuel?

Seriously- Australia really intrigues me.
They hate terrorists and have a huge desert.
I may be able to talk my wife into an outback vacation.

I think Australia would be great also, but like I said in another thread, they have some crazy enviro-wackos down there. Plus all those southern pacific islands have enormous islamic fundamentalist cells within them. So even if Australians hate terrorists (just like the US does) they could still strike.

Man, I can't believe terrorism is beginning to ruin one of the biggest things I live for. I know it doesn't compare to any of the terrorist attacks that this world has been through, but it is a sad day in the racing world. Just the feeling of being defenseless and not being able to run a race is terrible.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

It's the Dakar Rally... Just like the Baja 1000 races in Baja... Maybe they should race from South Africa Up...

[Icewalker]

Aus would be a great venue ... and I like the idea of Eastern Europe. But I still want a RAID in N.A. .... Hell I'd even be willing to donate a few years as long as someone is going to pay me for it. BTW I make close on 6 figures a year before some clown turns round and offers me $10k a year

[Ferrari333SP]

South Africa up would be an option, although I'm not so sure how willing the middle countries of Africa, where the jungles and rainforests are, would be to let a rally go through their countries. But its desert all the way up to the top of Angola, and then from there they could airlift the rally to Guinea, and then proceed to Dakar. Possibility for sure.

[JasonHutter]

Just go north until you come around to Senegal!:)

[Kartman]

Start in Prague then go any direction. If they did I would be there for sure.

[RGFan]

How about Russia......I think they have a region which contains just about every climate known to man. Do a little bit of everything......A little arctic whiteland, a little forrest, a few mountains and some desert. Find a route that would incorporate it all and away they go. The people are friendly, and as far as bad guys, who in their right mind would want to mess with the Russian Army. Just bring food, because their cuisine is eehhhhhh is not all that. A guaranteed way for an american to lose 20 pounds in 3 weeks.

[Icewalker]

To be quite honest part of the problem is as displayed on this site .... hit your back button for a moment and take a look at what it says underneath 'Marathon Rallies' .... looks to me as though it says Dakar ...... Now what it should be saying IMHO is RAID and underneath it should say Marathon Rallies (Dakar, +) ... That is another part of the problem .. in days of yore ... the Dakar wasn't the only long distance or tough as a$$oles rally ... we used to have the African, The safari rally, plus all the odd ball events including the Baja ... we used to have it where Sal made sure that the Euro's could come down and race the Baja ... And let's not forget the peak ;)

There are bags of opportunities for RAIDs around the globe ... We could have a Baja 3k ... of course it is up to the folks that run these things to get together and decide that they are going to do it for the love of racing

[dlink]

It's a shame that the organizers (ASO) didn't have a contingency plan to have the rally bypass certain "hot spots" that might crop up before or during the rally! Like in past years when they eliminated certain stages, they should have run the Dakar in an abreviated version this year using Morocco, Western Sahara and Senegal. It's not like these events in Mauritania just happened out of the blue and have never occurred before!! But I digress; what has happened has happened! IMHO the Dakar is severely damaged, if not dead! Next year, on the eve of the departure in whatever city they choose (I have to think that the Lisbon taxpayer will not want to foot the bill for the set-up, security, clean-up, etc. bills), any half ass terrorist wanting publicity will rattle the Dakar's 'cage' and it will be a repeat of this year. The 'bad' guys no which buttons to push.
Regarding new rally territory, that can be problematic because of the screwed up globe we live on! Short of the Rally / Raid of the Moon, the best prospects are wide open spaces with governments seeking, first, cash, and second, seeking publicity and acceptance in the world community. That brings to mind China and Russia, both of which have vast expanses of nothing and (politics aside), governments who would, most likely, embrace the type of rally / raid event like Dakar and all the positives it brings. Australia is also 'full' of vast expanses, has a great spirit, but has a more sophisticated government and a segment of the population who could present a roadblock to immediate implementation of the rally route. Time is of essence and the organizers like ASO (only because they already have the know how) or SCORE (the time commitment could do them in for their other highly successful races) need to get on this if there is to be any hope of a 'Dakar' next year. Unfortunately history is on the side of the demise of the Dakar. Think about the great World Cup Rallies & London to Sydney; all gone because of world unrest, politics, and BS.
As for a 'raid' like Dakar in the U.S.; where have those proponents been these last 10-15 years or so? There are too many snail darter lovers out there to ever hope for that one!!!

[Icewalker]

How about Russia......I think they have a region which contains just about every climate known to man. Do a little bit of everything......A little arctic whiteland, a little forrest, a few mountains and some desert. Find a route that would incorporate it all and away they go. Just bring food, because their cuisine eehhhhhh is not all that. A guaranteed way for an american to lose 20 pounds in 3 weeks.

Find a route from Calgary to a little village up past the arctic circle called Tuktoyaktuk ... Then take a look at how you are going to get there in say Jan/Feb ... then imagine rather than taking your time to get up there ... that you are in a race ... then imagine doing the bivvy Dakar style each night ;) And imagine that at least 80% of your ride (if you are on a bike) is done with spikes ..... :cool:

Then you tell me how many folks have the ba11$ let alone the skills to actually do it .....

[RGFan]

It's a shame that the organizers (ASO) didn't have a contingency plan to have the rally bypass certain "hot spots" that might crop up before or during the rally! Like in past years when they eliminated certain stages, they should have run the Dakar in an abreviated version this year using Morocco, Western Sahara and Senegal. It's not like these events in Mauritania just happened out of the blue and have never occurred before!! But I digress; what has happened has happened! IMHO the Dakar is severely damaged, if not dead! Next year, on the eve of the departure in whatever city they choose (I have to think that the Lisbon taxpayer will not want to foot the bill for the set-up, security, clean-up, etc. bills), any half ass terrorist wanting publicity will rattle the Dakar's 'cage' and it will be a repeat of this year. The 'bad' guys no which buttons to push.
Regarding new rally territory, that can be problematic because of the screwed up globe we live on! Short of the Rally / Raid of the Moon, the best prospects are wide open spaces with governments seeking, first, cash, and second, seeking publicity and acceptance in the world community. That brings to mind China and Russia, both of which have vast expanses of nothing and (politics aside), governments who would, most likely, embrace the type of rally / raid event like Dakar and all the positives it brings. Australia is also 'full' of vast expanses, has a great spirit, but has a more sophisticated government and a segment of the population who could present a roadblock to immediate implementation of the rally route. Time is of essence and the organizers like ASO (only because they already have the know how) or SCORE (the time commitment could do them in for their other highly successful races) need to get on this if there is to be any hope of a 'Dakar' next year. Unfortunately history is on the side of the demise of the Dakar. Think about the great World Cup Rallies & London to Sydney; all gone because of world unrest, politics, and BS.
As for a 'raid' like Dakar in the U.S.; where have those proponents been these last 10-15 years or so? There are too many snail darter lovers out there to ever hope for that one!!!

And Kangaroo Rats, don't forget the Kangaroo Rats:D

[dlink]

Re: Icewalker's comment; I don't think too many "Dakar" aficionados will want to bivouac in the Artic! If so, the Alcan Rally entry would be filled months in advance:)

[dustyhusky]

I just dont see how to finish the race in dakar.
Without Mauritania its just not gonna happen.

Race up from South Africa? Major problems with Congo and Nigeria.

I can see racing from Europe to Tunisia and or Libya and or Egypt. But then its not 'the Dakar'

I think the Dakar Rally is now history. SO freakin sad.


As for alternatives:
Australia already has the Safari. I just got an e-brochure about it. Its on.
South America has a couple rally raid type events already.
The Gobi is interesting, but its a logistical headache to get stuff there, plus they have their own Qaeda terrorists, big time.

Time to do a rallyraid in North America.

[Ferrari333SP]

I just dont see how to finish the race in dakar.
Without Mauritania its just not gonna happen.

Race up from South Africa? Major problems with Congo and Nigeria.

I can see racing from Europe to Tunisia and or Libya and or Egypt. But then its not 'the Dakar'

I think the Dakar Rally is now history. SO freakin sad.


As for alternatives:
Australia already has the Safari. I just got an e-brochure about it. Its on.
South America has a couple rally raid type events already.
The Gobi is interesting, but its a logistical headache to get stuff there, plus they have their own Qaeda terrorists, big time.

Time to do a rallyraid in North America.

In reference to South Africa, what I meant was that they could race up to the top of Angola, then fly the whole event to Guinea or somewhere near, then race on to Senegal. That's a pretty decent rally right there.

And al-Quaeda in the Gobi region? I've never heard of that before, and I read a lot of the news. Considering many rallies have gone to and from Beijing, I don't think that would be much of a problem. According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China, the regions of China with terrorist activity mostly reside in the western and southwestern provinces of China, not really near the Gobi region at all, which is farther north, northwest. And, according to this description of the Gobi desert, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_desert , there are tons of different types of terrain, including dunes, according to this picture, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KhongorynElsCamels.jpg

So a full fledged Dakar style rally in that region would definitely be interesting. Logistics would be the main problem I think.

[Ferrari333SP]

Also, check out these other sites on the Gobi desert:

http://www.bluepeak.net/mongolia/gobi.html

Gobi desert search on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Gobi+desert

MSN Encarta on Gobi: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761570073

Pics of Gobi on Google: http://images.google.com/images?q=Gobi+desert&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=ah4&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Really, this desert is a real possibility I think.

[Racicali]

Baja..... Mexico

Dakar... Africa


NOT... US or artic...

[VeryFast]

Start in Puerto Vallarta, run east to the center of mexico through the highlands (pine forest,etc), than north towards the border, west to baja, head west to Mexicali, to San Felipe.... and on down to Cabo. I believe you will find massive support in mainland Mexico. Mexico's terrain offers every type of terrain available on this earth.

Plenty of infrastructure.... every terrain imaginable.... safe and friendly folks

Just stay away from Tijuana/Ensenada

[bufeo]

Start in Puerto Vallarta...Plenty of infrastructure.... every terrain imaginable.... safe and friendly folks

Just stay away from Tijuana/Ensenada

Interesting scenario.

From your "Location" info I see that you are in the Pto Vallarta area.

Do you think that the safety issue could not be compromised as it was this year for northern Africa? There is an advantage to having a single govt. cover the security/safety issues.

Wasn't there a rally/race over some of the highland area you mention a few years ago? Seems to me I remember seeing something that went from Tepic north to Durango and beyond?

Allen R

[CDN11]

Find a route from Calgary to a little village up past the arctic circle called Tuktoyaktuk ... Then take a look at how you are going to get there in say Jan/Feb ... then imagine rather than taking your time to get up there ... that you are in a race ... then imagine doing the bivvy Dakar style each night ;) And imagine that at least 80% of your ride (if you are on a bike) is done with spikes ..... :cool:

Then you tell me how many folks have the ba11$ let alone the skills to actually do it .....

Not possible, to many Treehuggers (icehuggers), just like in Australia

[dustyhusky]

I am not looking for a pissing match, at all.
But just to add to the discussion let me point out a few things.

1) Ive been to the Takla Maklan (few call it the gobi these days) 5 times.
Ive spent months based in both Urumchi and Kashgar, the two main cities in that desert. Ive driven around half of it, and thats saying something, its a huge and desolate place.

2) Xinjiang is the main province of the northern and western half of it, the capital is Urumchi. It was an independent state for one year after the fall of Chaing Kai Shek in '48-49--it was a muslim state of the Uigher people--at that time by far the majority.
Since then the Han Chinese have been populating it, just like in Tibet. They are despised by the muslim locals.

3) There have been active terrorist activities for 50 years now in the region, and things have been heating up since the fall of the Soviet Union, and the changes in neighboring Kyrgyzystan, Kazakhstan and Afghanistan. Chinese leaders are not safe to travel in many areas of Xinjiang-and are periodically assasinated. One was blown up when i was first there in '99.

4) If you read Ghost Wars--the prize winning account of the birth of Al Qaida you will find more references to this area. Also the Qaeda mastermind who just blew up Bhutto was found to have foreigners including Uighers from Xinjiang a few months ago (he blows up lots of Paki's) in his Waziristan strongholds.

5) It is true that the extent of the terrorist activities in Xinjiang is under-appreciated outside of China, and there is little in the main stream press about it (although there are many articles available). Nonetheless it is a major concern of foreign investors in the region, of the Chinese military and of the US military.

6) Just before the US invaded Afghanistan, Bush flew to China. It is said in Xinjiang that he asked for and recieved the aid of the Chinese military who plugged up the exit routes from Afghanistan to this region of China. Sadly they have not been very effective, and today Qaeda linked Uigher islamists flow between Xinjiang and waziristan.

7) Try a search of 'Uigher' 'Xinjiang' 'Urumchi' and 'Kashgar' for more info.

I agree it would be a great place for the rally in terms of the dunes and mountains (some huge mountains) and the rest of the desert terrain--but not in the winter, it is often way below freezing! Sadly it is mostly muslim lands, and there is an active al-qaeda linked terrorist network and activity in the region. If they succeeded in north Africa it would be a next step for them to threaten attack in Xinjiang as well.
The logistics would be hell. Urumchi , the largest city and main air and rail hub is the most inland city in the world. Over 4000kms from the sea! If they chose a route that only skirted the desert and headed up into outer Mongolia they could do it. Both the Mongols and the Kazakhs in the region are good people. But if they go thru Uigher areas, its asking for trouble.

Im really into following events in this area--i did a lot of business in Urumchi--so i cant help but type all this, but PLEASE dont think i am being a ********. Im not, just adding some color to the discussion.

I hear ya on flying out of Angola. Ive ridden in SA and Namibia and it would be a great place for part of a rally. Still an airlift is a major undertaking...

Last year at the Rally there where rumors of a future ASO event in Latin America--the Dakar was getting harder and harder to run out of Europe, or at least that was the thinking. On day 3 last year while sitting at the start a french rider and I spoke for an hour about all the rumors of future ASO rally locations. He was convinced it would never run out of France again (the greeenies...). I guess time will tell.





In reference to South Africa, what I meant was that they could race up to the top of Angola, then fly the whole event to Guinea or somewhere near, then race on to Senegal. That's a pretty decent rally right there.

And al-Quaeda in the Gobi region? I've never heard of that before, and I read a lot of the news. Considering many rallies have gone to and from Beijing, I don't think that would be much of a problem. According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China, the regions of China with terrorist activity mostly reside in the western and southwestern provinces of China, not really near the Gobi region at all, which is farther north, northwest. And, according to this description of the Gobi desert, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_desert , there are tons of different types of terrain, including dunes, according to this picture, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KhongorynElsCamels.jpg

So a full fledged Dakar style rally in that region would definitely be interesting. Logistics would be the main problem I think.

[bufeo]

dustyhusky,

Thanks for that informative post. Good info.

Allen R

[Ferrari333SP]

Well I was thinking you could just avoid the Xinjiang province altogether, and have the rally run through the provinces Hebei, Shanxi, Shaanxi, Inner Mongolia, and in Mongolia itself. That is a pretty large area to have a rally in itself, and in pretty far away from Xinjiang, where most of the terrorist activity seems to be. The Gobi extends into those provinces doesn't it?

[Ferrari333SP]

Map of provinces btw: http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Provinces/I-China-map.gif

Gobi pics: http://www.history.upenn.edu/coursepages/hist086/material/gobi.gif
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/programs/images/2102_gobi_1.jpg
Good one: http://www.chine-informations.com/images/upload/gobi.gif

[Ghost21]

Hello everyone
Disappointing...no race...very sad, but no one wants their father. mother, brother,sister etc sent home in a pine box.

As for alternative venues, there is plenty dirt, mud forests,deserts down south here (SA, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi) There are a few environmentally sensitive areas and good planning to be done. Plus you have the added incentive of not getting stuck in the desert sand, otherwise you get chomped by the desert lions, and/or get stomped on by a few angry desert elephants:p ;) :D (joking)

Rally Raid Southern Africa 2009?

Regards

[241rivmasta]

They should come down here to Australia. People are right there are greenies a very few but loud pack of clowns but we still have the Aus Safari, it is run completely in Western Australia with plenty of desert running and a possibility of putting another 4 to 5 days of racing onto it to take it to Dakar length. We are not ringed by Islamic nations ( islands ) but there are are few of them about but not all of them are terrorists. They should look at Aus as it is all in one country and they logistics are already in place. Have a look at the site and people come down for a look. www.australiansafari.com.au .

[dustyhusky]

St Petersburg to Beijing, in June....?