Indian gaming Prop.

[Laurie]

I want to get peoples opinion about Prop's 94, 95, 96, 97. Since they
don't currently pay state taxes, why are they will to be taxed. What's the
catch? Anybody been able to study it and have some insight? Or am I
just a pessimist.

[Goober]

I'm confused as well.

[DEZERTSUB]

Basically, you should do the research yourself read your voter information pamphlet.

If you care to hear my .02 cents, I think it is good, as it does ensure more revenue for the state.

The ads you've seen on TV that oppose it are funded by other gambling establishments, (more competition for them). Also in those ads they say that not 1 cent is guaranteed to schools, and well, that is correct. But If that state brings in as much as these props can deliver, well then it's up to the discretion as to how it should be spent.

I urge you to look up these for yourself and come to your own conclusion however.

Thank you for your interest and desire to know more about the topics though:D

[baja619]

Roger Hedgecok say to vote not on the 4 propositions. I usually agree and vote according to his knowledge but I think these will help the state of CA out of the hole we are currently in. Only draw back I see is that they put in a determine amount of time that will lock this deal down. I think it would be better to revise after half of the time goes down.

http://www.rogerhedgecock.com/pages/roger_recommends.html

[Jack]

I think the state needs the money. I don't care what type of gaming they allow, I don't go.

[DEZERTSUB]

The only "new gaming" they are allowing is the addition of several thousand (18,000) slot machines. According to my research, they will have to pay more to the state, and as cited, we do need the extra income.

Now, if only I could draft another prop. that would disallow any of the new revenue to be spent on benefits for illegals....:D

[Brokenbronco]

Unfortuneatly if these pass it will only be a temporary windfall. And like all other temporary windfalls the the state will only squander this money as well! Unless we elect officials that stop wasting money, we will never get out of this hole.

[JGunn]

The Indians do pay the State for each slot machine. With the additional machines they want to have, (which is more than twice the current machines in the casinos now) they will be paying less than half for every machine they pay for now! I say send it back to renegotiate for a better deal, the $9 Billion is estimated for the next 20 years and won't help California like is being said...

[baja619]

Im having alot of trouble deciding on this issue.

Facts concerning prop 94 (Pechanga Tribe)

Currently:
- 2000 slots allowed
- 29 million per year paid to two state funds, no payments towards the state general fund

if the proposition is passed
-7,500 slots would be allowed
- At least 44.5 Million per year would be paid, and more payments to be paid if the tribe expands casino operations, all the money would go in the general fund.

Casinos allowed on tribal lands in riverside county = 2. This would not change if the proposition is passed.

The current agreement does not expire till 2030. If the new proposition is passed it is good till 2030


Prop 95 is pretty much the same deal
- Morongos current tribe compact expires in 2020 and the new deal would expire in 2030
- if the prop is passed they would be allowed small auxillary gaming facilities

Prop 96 (Sycuan)
- Currently pays $5 million, If passed they would pay at least $23 million per year
- Current tribe compact expires in 2020 and the new deal would expire in 2030

Prop 96 (Agua Caliente)
- Currently pays $13 million, If passed they would pay at least $25.4 million per year
- Current tribe compact expires in 2020 and the new deal would expire in 2030
- If passed they would be allowed to increase casinos from 2 to 3.

I understand that they will be getting away with slot machines at half price. Our state needs the money now, I also understand that it will not fix the problem. Im all for cleaning out the demos & liberals. I wish we could clone Duncan Hunter.

I believe that all 4 propositions will pass.

[craigincali]

I say gave the Indians what they want.

[SpceSpff]

Think of it this way. A normal business pays 7% to the state. The casinos will be paying 25%.

If you think they aren't paying enough, you're out of your mind.

[craigincali]

Some other states make the Indian casinos pay 55%. I think 25% is a lot....

[DSRacing]

Think of it this way. A normal business pays 7% to the state. The casinos will be paying 25%.

If you think they aren't paying enough, you're out of your mind.

If you search the web for maybe 15 minutes, you can find all kinds of documentation from the state gaming commission about how all the indian casinos have consistently underpaid their share to the state. Each tribe is subject to an annual audit to ensure they are paying their fair share. The problem lies with the state only being able to conduct the audit with the figures provided by the tribe. The state has never been able to actually conduct an independant and accurate audit of what a casino takes in.

If they want to do something with this upcoming compact, they should re-write the auditing process and hire more auditors to enforce it. I personally don't gamble, either at the indian casinos or Vegas, I already pay taxes, why pay more. The downside to this is, if it doesn't pass is the state legislature and Arnold going to raise everyone's taxes to cover the loss of revenue.

[SpceSpff]

The downside to this is, if it doesn't pass is the state legislature and Arnold going to raise everyone's taxes to cover the loss of revenue.

Exactly.

The state isn't stupid. They are getting what they want out of the deal. How long has this been in the making? My Dad worked at Morongo for several years, and his wife still works there. This is a mutually beneficial deal, from what I can tell.

[racer951]

These props are a complete no-brainer if there ever was one. Even if some of you do vote no, they will pass overwhelmingy. Either way, I'm glad to see people participating in debate and hopefully voting as it's more important than a lot of people realize.

Get out and vote!

[Bulldozer]

Vote NO. The props say that in turn for their 2000-7500 extra slot machines per casino, they will garnish pay checks for Child support, back taxes, judgments, levies or liens etc. from EMPLOYEES of the casinos, however, there are tons of tribe member out there making 35000$+ a month for doing nothing, but these same tribe members owe MILLIONS of Dollars in Child support, back taxes, judgments, levies or liens etc., which the state of California CANNOT make them pay. The propositions need to be re-written to include the garnishing of wages from tribe members AND employees.

Also, they say they will give the state a certain amount of money, but it only benefits at the expense of other tribes, not a penny of the money is guaranteed to schools, and what these 4 wealthy tribes they don't tell you this money is over the next 20 PLUS YEARS, and is dependent on their "PROJECTED profit" Obviously, to make the deal sound better they are "projecting" their profits will be higher then they really expect, and in reality, they can simply doctor their books every year to show they made less WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT DOING IN THE PAST.

I also don't think people are realizing just how large of an expansion these added slot machines will bring, this puts it into perspective:

Add up all the slot machines at a dozen big Vegas casinos, including the Bellagio, MGM Grand, Mirage, and Mandalay Bay, and they still wouldn’t total the 17,000 additional slot machines these deals authorize. Morongo could build another casino and more than triple their current 2,000 maximum number of slot machines to 7,500. California would become home to some of the largest casinos in the world.


Please take a look at:
http://www.nounfairdeals.com/

[DSRacing]

there are tons of tribe member out there making 35000$+ a month for doing nothing, but these same tribe members owe MILLIONS of Dollars in Child support, back taxes, judgments, levies or liens etc.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, your not including the criminal law violations which occur on a routine basis. And as long as the suspect remains on the reservation, law enforcement can't simply show up at the door and serve a warrant or arrest a tribal member. A particular tribe had a murder suspect on the reservation for close to six months before he was arrested. Law enforcement knew it, the tribe knew it, but they refused to turn him over. Deputies observed the suspect driving off the reservation while going to an unrelated call and gave chase.

After a short chase, the suspect bails from his vehicle and ducked into a nearby house thinking he was back on the reservation. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the wrong house. The borderline of the reservation was the middle of the street, if the suspect had run across the street in the opposite direction, he would have been safe. The deputies went inside and arrested him. It's funny how you never hear about the meth labs, drug dealing and car theft rings on the reservations being broadcast on the evening news. It's not PC. They keep it hush hush and donate money to help buy firefighting helicopters.

[SpceSpff]

After a short chase, the suspect bails from his vehicle and ducked into a nearby house thinking he was back on the reservation. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the wrong house. The borderline of the reservation was the middle of the street, if the suspect had run across the street in the opposite direction, he would have been safe. The deputies went inside and arrested him. It's funny how you never hear about the meth labs, drug dealing and car theft rings on the reservations being broadcast on the evening news. It's not PC. They keep it hush hush and donate money to help buy firefighting helicopters.

My Dad was a Lieutenant with the tribal police. I heard lots of stories. Nasty stories.

[Bulldozer]

That's just the tip of the iceberg, your not including the criminal law violations which occur on a routine basis. And as long as the suspect remains on the reservation, law enforcement can't simply show up at the door and serve a warrant or arrest a tribal member. A particular tribe had a murder suspect on the reservation for close to six months before he was arrested. Law enforcement knew it, the tribe knew it, but they refused to turn him over. Deputies observed the suspect driving off the reservation while going to an unrelated call and gave chase.

After a short chase, the suspect bails from his vehicle and ducked into a nearby house thinking he was back on the reservation. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the wrong house. The borderline of the reservation was the middle of the street, if the suspect had run across the street in the opposite direction, he would have been safe. The deputies went inside and arrested him. It's funny how you never hear about the meth labs, drug dealing and car theft rings on the reservations being broadcast on the evening news. It's not PC. They keep it hush hush and donate money to help buy firefighting helicopters.

Oh trust me, I've heard all about them.

It's not fair to the rest of the law biding citizens in this state to keep letting these guys go scotch free.

[Jack]

Vote NO. The props say that in turn for their 2000-7500 extra slot machines per casino, they will garnish pay checks for Child support, back taxes, judgments, levies or liens etc. from EMPLOYEES of the casinos, however, there are tons of tribe member out there making 35000$+ a month for doing nothing, but these same tribe members owe MILLIONS of Dollars in Child support, back taxes, judgments, levies or liens etc., which the state of California CANNOT make them pay. The propositions need to be re-written to include the garnishing of wages from tribe members AND employees.

Also, they say they will give the state a certain amount of money, but it only benefits at the expense of other tribes, not a penny of the money is guaranteed to schools, and what these 4 wealthy tribes they don't tell you this money is over the next 20 PLUS YEARS, and is dependent on their "PROJECTED profit" Obviously, to make the deal sound better they are "projecting" their profits will be higher then they really expect, and in reality, they can simply doctor their books every year to show they made less WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT DOING IN THE PAST.

I also don't think people are realizing just how large of an expansion these added slot machines will bring, this puts it into perspective:



Please take a look at:
http://www.nounfairdeals.com/

I just love how they list "not a penny of the money is guaranteed to schools" as a reson to vote NO on this. The money all goes to the general fund it's up to the polititians how to spend it, if they don't spend it on the schools then that is there issue.

[Laurie]

Thanks, for all your input.

I have done my research but didn't feel I was getting the "whole" story.

Happy voting.

[usmcgunrock]

That's just the tip of the iceberg, your not including the criminal law violations which occur on a routine basis. And as long as the suspect remains on the reservation, law enforcement can't simply show up at the door and serve a warrant or arrest a tribal member. A particular tribe had a murder suspect on the reservation for close to six months before he was arrested. Law enforcement knew it, the tribe knew it, but they refused to turn him over. Deputies observed the suspect driving off the reservation while going to an unrelated call and gave chase.

After a short chase, the suspect bails from his vehicle and ducked into a nearby house thinking he was back on the reservation. Unfortunately for him, he ran into the wrong house. The borderline of the reservation was the middle of the street, if the suspect had run across the street in the opposite direction, he would have been safe. The deputies went inside and arrested him. It's funny how you never hear about the meth labs, drug dealing and car theft rings on the reservations being broadcast on the evening news. It's not PC. They keep it hush hush and donate money to help buy firefighting helicopters.

You know whats funny is I know the guy you are talking about. I knew some Indians and they get away with...well murder. And that includes the non Indians that live on the res. also. You would be surprised how many there are.

[JENN]

I vote: NO.

[Bulldozer]

I just love how they list "not a penny of the money is guaranteed to schools" as a reson to vote NO on this. The money all goes to the general fund it's up to the polititians how to spend it, if they don't spend it on the schools then that is there issue.

They say that because the ad campaign promoting the prop says something to the effect of "More money for California schools."

[SpceSpff]

They say that because the ad campaign promoting the prop says something to the effect of "More money for California schools."

Well, it could mean that. Voter responsibility to vote in representatives who will use the money properly.

Anywho, they passed. Earth hasn't fallen off its axis yet...

[Bulldozer]

Earth hasn't fallen off its axis yet...

Well no crap. These props won't affect most peoples daily lives in anyway...

unfortunately I'm on of the people it does affect.

[la2baja]

IF you don't understand a prop do not vote on it at all.
In my opinion, the government (and the people it represents) have been screwing the American Indians since we created a government. The American Indian has been displaced, culturally raped and set aside on unwanted lands for the entirety of our existance here in THEIR COUNTRY. With all that our government/we, have done to eraticate the only true natives to this land they found a way to make money using what little we left them with. They used the laws that the gov/we instated to remove them from our "problems" and built casinos the only place the US gov had no say. They are making money now and so, suddenly the gov/we give a crap?

They are making money without having to sell soda's and hand made trinkits to passing tourists. Their culture on display at the front of trading posts like a side show gift shop. The American Indian has had to make a meager living on small chunks of reservation land that was promised to be left to the Indians to run WITHOUT GOV INTERFERENCE and now we feel entitled to get our share because a true profit is finally being made. BS!!!
We felt like we wanted their land and took it, over and over and over. We wanted to break their spirit and we almost did.

So for the first time in this countries history.. How about we don't "F" the American Indian.

Sorry for the harsh words, but I find this situation truely embarassing as an American citizen.

[Jack]

I don't like to stop a tradition.

[DEZERTSUB]

HOORAY FOR BOOBIES!

Wait, what?

[DSRacing]

IF you don't understand a prop do not vote on it at all.
In my opinion, the government (and the people it represents) have been screwing the American Indians since we created a government. The American Indian has been displaced, culturally raped and set aside on unwanted lands for the entirety of our existance here in THEIR COUNTRY. With all that our government/we, have done to eraticate the only true natives to this land they found a way to make money using what little we left them with. They used the laws that the gov/we instated to remove them from our "problems" and built casinos the only place the US gov had no say. They are making money now and so, suddenly the gov/we give a crap?

They are making money without having to sell soda's and hand made trinkits to passing tourists. Their culture on display at the front of trading posts like a side show gift shop. The American Indian has had to make a meager living on small chunks of reservation land that was promised to be left to the Indians to run WITHOUT GOV INTERFERENCE and now we feel entitled to get our share because a true profit is finally being made. BS!!!
We felt like we wanted their land and took it, over and over and over. We wanted to break their spirit and we almost did.

So for the first time in this countries history.. How about we don't "F" the American Indian.

Sorry for the harsh words, but I find this situation truely embarassing as an American citizen.

Wow, I hope you feel better now that you've got that off your chest.

One question though, how much time has to pass before the mistakes of five or six generations past are no longer considered the mistakes made by the present.

[baja619]

You could say when the US Govt has righted their wrong. Till then, the Native American tribes get exponential benefits and the tribes that operate casinos get filthy rich.

[Bulldozer]

http://www.bohemianscientist.org/images/blog06/headexplode.jpg

[la2baja]

Wow, I hope you feel better now that you've got that off your chest.

One question though, how much time has to pass before the mistakes of five or six generations past are no longer considered the mistakes made by the present.


Good point, I went off just a bit there.

I would say the answer is to give the American Indians back what is theirs. There are a bunch of African Americans still waiting for their 40 acres and a mule too. Being these acts will never come to fruition...
I figure the least we can do is let the Indians make the best out of a S#&@ situation that we put them in, without trying to tax them.