Turbo and supercharges simple salution

[Fly'n Ryan]

I have put alot of thought myself into this and why turbos and superchargers are not allowed in desert racing. I think I could say I have an easy salution. So here are my thoughts. Why dont SCORE ,BITD and other racing organization, just limit the horse power of the class for example:


If you drive a trophy truck just set a horse power limit as a rule on the trophy truck class, say the limit is a 1000 hp limit if someone wants to race a non asperated engine let them but to make things fair lets some of the guys who cant go drop 40 grand on an engine. Let those guys go buy a turbo or SC slap it on and go race as long as its not exceeding 1000 hp. This could almost work for all classes. Limit class 1 at 900hp / class 8 850hp / class 10 at 400hp / class 7 450hp. I mean every off road racer know "you can only go as fast as your suspension will let you." I just dont think a 4,000hp trophy truck isnt really gonna be built in the near future.

whats your thought???????????

[Michael Pee]

I think that Unlimited classes should be just that, Unlimited.

[Dempkowski Motorsports]

turbo in a off-road car would be scary .. getting rocks and sand into the turbine :eek:

[therail]

getting rocks and sand into the turbine :eek:

You don't think the turbine wheel would like that? However, turbos have been on dirt equipment for years, it just takes a better more reliable air cleaner I assume.

[partybarge_pilot]

turbo in a off-road car would be scary .. getting rocks and sand into the turbine :eek:


And how is that going to happen? IF your getting debris down your intake, your filter has failed. If your filter has failed, your motor will soon fallow regardless if it has a turbo or not.

[Dempkowski Motorsports]

And how is that going to happen? IF your getting debris down your intake, your filter has failed. If your filter has failed, your motor will soon fallow regardless if it has a turbo or not.

true ! but what about making room to mount the manifold, turbo, BOV and other goodies.. would you need to take into consideration on mounting the turbo??, all that bouncing around might warp or break that red hot manifold :eek:

[younggunracer]

true ! but what about making room to mount the manifold, turbo, BOV and other goodies.. would you need to take into consideration on mounting the turbo??, all that bouncing around might warp or break that red hot manifold :eek:

They have done it with success in Dakar and Down under for years Why wouldn't it work. Racers can get Turbos and Superchargers to work great if it was legal thats what racing is all about pushing the line. If engineers can get a F-1 motor to rev to 17k rpm somone can get a Forced Induction motor to work in the desert.

[usmcgunrock]

true ! but what about making room to mount the manifold, turbo, BOV and other goodies.. would you need to take into consideration on mounting the turbo??, all that bouncing around might warp or break that red hot manifold :eek:

That would be one of the pro and cons for the builder/racer to think about. Build the motor more or run force induction.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

But why? And who is going to test the HP of each vehicle?

[Chris Tobin]

But why? And who is going to test the HP of each vehicle?

I agree, there would be no way to easily and safely test all the entries prior to a race...

What if the tester blows the race engine on the dyno before the race, what does the team do???

There should be no limitations on the UNLIMITED classes!!!!:eek: :confused: :D

If they want to run a turbo or supercharger it should be allowed! If they want to try and run the 1000 with a Top Fuel 5,000+ HP engine that should be allowed too! It is a risk verses reward decision that the teams should be allowed to choose for themselves, afterall it is an unlimited class!

My 2 cents...

[Atombomb]

This is the obvious solution.......!! The major issue with the sport is the old school thinking. Forced induction is almost as old as the internal combustion motor. It's not like we are asking to put Turbine motors in the race cars, it is a turbo! Their not exactly rocket science.

HP Regulation can be enforced by intake restrictor size, Plain and simple! It is the same way Le mans and many other organizations regulate their classes. Intake volume directly equates to potential HP. No need for a Chassis dyno at tech, no need for teams to cheat by loading a legal HP tune for tech and then uploading the real program at the starting line. Check the restrictor plate at pre-race tech and then a post-race tech will have to follow. We need to learn from some of the other leading sanctioning bodies. Lets get more into the equation, lets advance the sport, and F-it lets put turbos and SC's on the CORR trucks while we are at it!!!!!!!!!!

[John F2000]

I agree, there would be no way to easily and safely test all the entries prior to a race...

What if the tester blows the race engine on the dyno before the race, what does the team do???

There should be no limitations on the UNLIMITED classes!!!!:eek: :confused: :D

If they want to run a turbo or supercharger it should be allowed! If they want to try and run the 1000 with a Top Fuel 5,000+ HP engine that should be allowed too! It is a risk verses reward decision that the teams should be allowed to choose for themselves, afterall it is an unlimited class!

My 2 cents...

This is correct.

That is what is so unusual about this form of motor sports. In the TT or Class 1, hp above 800 will not decide the outcome of the race, too many other factors involved. In all other forms or racing this is not true. Therefore let the motors be unlimited, completely unlimited, and let the teams build what is most reliable and cost effective.

[John F2000]

And how is that going to happen? IF your getting debris down your intake, your filter has failed. If your filter has failed, your motor will soon fallow regardless if it has a turbo or not.

This is also correct.

I have been running a twin turbo motor in my pre runner with over 4,000 miles on it. The turbos are designed to run for over 100,000 miles. Even if you get some silt into the turbo, the cost to repair a turbo is several hundred dollars not several thousand. Even if the turbo receives some silt damage, it doesnt completely fail during the race, just is a little less efficient. If you get something big enough to break an impeller wheel, just wait and see what its going to do to the top end of your motor.

[RoosterBooster]

i just finished a twin turbo Truggy style car (it is a "play" and not a race car). to keep the center of gravity low the turbos sit very low next to the block
my idea (and the fabrication skills of Greg @ REF) to solve the sand/debris problem was a "snorkel" style turbo intake tube. this way the air cleaner is located behind a panel with SS screened cutouts. i dont think any debris could reach the filter at this location behind the front shocks. the turbo also gets cooler air away from the engine and intercooler....
http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6554.jpg

i dont see why a turbo would not work in desert Racing .... but maybe the extra weight and plumbing could be a problem

[RoosterBooster]

This is also correct.

I have been running a twin turbo motor in my pre runner with over 4,000 miles on it. The turbos are designed to run for over 100,000 miles. Even if you get some silt into the turbo, the cost to repair a turbo is several hundred dollars not several thousand. Even if the turbo receives some silt damage, it doesnt completely fail during the race, just is a little less efficient. If you get something big enough to break an impeller wheel, just wait and see what its going to do to the top end of your motor.

yes, i agree ....but i guess for Racing it is better to keep things KISS (keep it simple stupid :p ) a turbo with its wastegate, blow-off valve and vacuum lines just adds more complexity= more parts that could fail

[partybarge_pilot]

i just finished a twin turbo Truggy style car (it is a "play" and not a race car). to keep the center of gravity low the turbos sit very low next to the block
my idea (and the fabrication skills of Greg @ REF) to solve the sand/debris problem was a "snorkel" style turbo intake tube. this way the air cleaner is located behind a panel with SS screened cutouts. i dont think any debris could reach the filter at this location behind the front shocks. the turbo also gets cooler air away from the engine and intercooler....
http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6554.jpg

i dont see why a turbo would not work in desert Racing .... but maybe the extra weight and plumbing could be a problem

I like how the BOV is plumbed back into the system rather than venting to atmsophere. Any more pics of this?

[philofab]

They should allow turbos and superchargers in unlimited classes... because they are supposed to be unlimited. I don't think they need to be allowed in 10, 11, 12, 5, or 7 or 8 classes though as it would defeat the point of CC limits on engines. 14/15 sportsman should be ok too... it's basically an unlimited class anyways.

[Fly'n Ryan]

well i Think you would know if your truck is exceeding a certin amount of hp and if its that big of a problem im sure people would pro-test

[RoosterBooster]

I like how the BOV is plumbed back into the system rather than venting to atmsophere. Any more pics of this?

yes, we did the BOV that way so that it is blowing off fairly quiet (its a sleeper :p ) and to keep the chance of sand/dust contamination to a minimum.
the turbos are actually undersized for the 572 cid engine. the goal was not to just make a huge peak HP number for bragging rights; good driveability was the main target. smaller turbos spool up quicker and build boost almost instantly. the engine is actually butter-smooth and the power is easy to control....lots of torque with no harsh turbo kick-in

i guess with a setup like this it would be very usable power for racing....but (as John F2000 already stated) would it make a difference?? or would it just be too much torque (with the danger of braking stuff) ?

btw
partybarge, here is another pic of the engine setup and one of the finished car ;)

http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6561.jpg

http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF8892.JPG

[Fly'n Ryan]

They should allow turbos and superchargers in unlimited classes... because they are supposed to be unlimited. I don't think they need to be allowed in 10, 11, 12, 5, or 7 or 8 classes though as it would defeat the point of CC limits on engines. 14/15 sportsman should be ok too... it's basically an unlimited class anyways


well for what your saying here with class 10 for example the limit I think is a 1.6 liter so instead of sending your engine out to kroyer or something keep it stock or add a few bolt on and add a turbo its just cheaper and turbos have been in the sand and dirt for years look at the common tractor or dune buggy. A turbo only adds about 15 to 35 hp anyways its not like your strapping a jet engine on the thing. And the common class 10 competetive car is running any were from 280 to 350hp anyways.

[Fly'n Ryan]

hey john you and i had this discussion over the summer at the buckmann springs trophy kart track

[RoosterBooster]

....A turbo only adds about 15 to 35 hp anyways its not like your strapping a jet engine on the thing. And the common class 10 competetive car is running any were from 280 to 350hp anyways.

hmmm... i think that depends largely on how much boost you add. in theory a raise in 14 psi intake air pressure equals double the HP ; so if you start with a 300hp N/A engine and add 14psi boost you end up with at least 450-500hp ....but even more important is the huge gain in torque

[partybarge_pilot]

hmmm... i think that depends largely on how much boost you add. in theory a raise in 14 psi intake air pressure equals double the HP ; so if you start with a 300hp N/A engine and add 14psi boost you end up with at least 450-500hp ....but even more important is the huge gain in torque

Actually, 15PSI is a better number......

As for the 10 car comment. BMW in the early 80's when they still allowed turbo's in F1 had a 1.5L 4 banger motor that made in excess of 1200HP. This was done with a stock block and somewhere in the neighborhood of 150PSI of boost.

Now getting a tranny that will handle this in an off-road setting is another story. But if you went and found the engineers that built those motors, I'm pretty sure they could build you a 600-700Hp motor that would run a 1000 miles.

700HP 10 car anyone?

[j10-401]

Wow,how did they keep the head on that engine. I feel you could build a high hp turbo engine for fairly cheap, as far as hp per dollar goes. Other than a stout bottom end and a good set of pistons, you dont need crazy high lift cams and a shat load of head porting and so on to make good hp with a turbo. I work for volvo, and all our engines (except the v8) have a turbo on them, these engines come from the factory with forged cranks rods and pistons. Its not uncommon to see these engines with over 200,000 miles on them with no major issues. Granted they only run 8-10 pounds of boost and this is no race environment, but point being you could pick one up for fairly cheap crank the boost up and dial the fuel trim in and have a fun toy. the 5 or 6 cyl. turbo engine in a 2 seat chassis or baja bug would be a kick in pants.

[baja stu]

I think that racing sanctions should allow turbos in unlimited classes. I'm in the process of building a new class 5 and the term 5-unlimmited is a very loose classification. It's not really an unlimited class; beam front end, 105 1/2" WB, vw power, ect. I'm not in the same boat as everyone else with an unlimmited budget and able to drop $18,000 for a new type IV from Fat, so a mild built type IV or even a large type I with a turbo would greatly even out the field in the engine department. I do plan on racing with a large type one but at the same time my car is going to see a lot more pre running and that’s why I built this little gem. Sorry , but I have not installed the coilovers so the car looks like a low rider.

[John F2000]

We set up our truck the same as yours. Small turbos big displacement, although yours is a little bigger than mine. I love the fact you went with a 572. Regarding breaking stuff, your description of the power band is correct in our situation as well. It is very usable and appears to not be as hard on parts as a high reving motor. I have a correction, I have 7,000 miles on this motor and still running great. No significant wear on the tranny (built by Culahne) and only had a pinion support bearing issue in the rear end, but no major failure. I think the power band makes a great race motor.

Mine builds boost starting just off idle around 2100 rpm, I would imagine yours is similar?

We had to run four wastegates due to the small turbo size, you might have proportionally larger turbos per cubic inches than us.

Anyways I like your set up.





They should allow turbos and superchargers in unlimited classes... because they are supposed to be unlimited. I don't think they need to be allowed in 10, 11, 12, 5, or 7 or 8 classes though as it would defeat the point of CC limits on engines. 14/15 sportsman should be ok too... it's basically an unlimited class anyways


well for what your saying here with class 10 for example the limit I think is a 1.6 liter so instead of sending your engine out to kroyer or something keep it stock or add a few bolt on and add a turbo its just cheaper and turbos have been in the sand and dirt for years look at the common tractor or dune buggy. A turbo only adds about 15 to 35 hp anyways its not like your strapping a jet engine on the thing. And the common class 10 competetive car is running any were from 280 to 350hp anyways.

[John F2000]

hey, sorry didnt know that was you. So you've heard my pro turbo pitch, now probably once too many.

Anyways, in the end its not easy to regulate a limited class blown motor because you can turn the boost up in seconds with a turn of a knob and double your hp, regardless of a restriction plate. Maybey in a formula class where there are a lot of monitored regulations but in the archaic world of off road racing, it only has a chance with the unlimited crowd or maybey class 8, if those with the rule books will even give it a chance.

on a different note, jack just ran the 120 mile mojave trail in his tk solo. 3 belts and 7 gal of fuel. Ill post the video this week.


hey john you and i had this discussion over the summer at the buckmann springs trophy kart track

[Dezertpilot]

A turbo only adds about 15 to 35 hp anyways its not like your strapping a jet engine on the thing. And the common class 10 competetive car is running any were from 280 to 350hp anyways.

Here is where you are wrong. Adding only 15 to 35 Hp? ummmm no. Alot more if done correctly. And top of the line Kroyer Hondas and Majors Type 1's are around 200 Hp.

[John F2000]

the basic rule of thumb is that every time you double atmosphere you double hp (in theory) depending on how efficient the system is. So a 100 hp nat aspirated motor with 15 psi could make 200 hp. Or at 30 psi could make 300 hp, and so on.


Here is where you are wrong. Adding only 15 to 35 Hp? ummmm no. Alot more if done correctly. And top of the line Kroyer Hondas and Majors Type 1's are around 200 Hp.

[RoosterBooster]

...Now getting a tranny that will handle this in an off-road setting is another story...

True. we actually had to use a TH400/Allison hybrid to deal with the extra torque. i think it is plenty strong for a "recreational" car....but yeah; i guess pounding on it in the desert is a different story (not that i claim to know anything about that lol )

[John F2000]

sorry did the quote wrong on the last post

We set up our truck the same as yours. Small turbos big displacement, although yours is a little bigger than mine. I love the fact you went with a 572. Regarding breaking stuff, your description of the power band is correct in our situation as well. It is very usable and appears to not be as hard on parts as a high reving motor. I have a correction, I have 7,000 miles on this motor and still running great. No significant wear on the tranny (built by Culahne) and only had a pinion support bearing issue in the rear end, but no major failure. I think the power band makes a great race motor.

Mine builds boost starting just off idle around 2100 rpm, I would imagine yours is similar?

We had to run four wastegates due to the small turbo size, you might have proportionally larger turbos per cubic inches than us.

Anyways I like your set up.



yes, we did the BOV that way so that it is blowing off fairly quiet (its a sleeper :p ) and to keep the chance of sand/dust contamination to a minimum.
the turbos are actually undersized for the 572 cid engine. the goal was not to just make a huge peak HP number for bragging rights; good driveability was the main target. smaller turbos spool up quicker and build boost almost instantly. the engine is actually butter-smooth and the power is easy to control....lots of torque with no harsh turbo kick-in

i guess with a setup like this it would be very usable power for racing....but (as John F2000 already stated) would it make a difference?? or would it just be too much torque (with the danger of braking stuff) ?

btw
partybarge, here is another pic of the engine setup and one of the finished car ;)

http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF6561.jpg

http://cargallery.fastmover.us/albums/cars/vrex/normal_DSCF8892.JPG

[RoosterBooster]

John
as a side note;
im kinda new here on this forum and have no clue at all about desert racing (but i love everything tech and hope to learn and share a little over here :P )
it is interesting for me to see that we share so much in engine philosophy ....;)


IMHO one huge advantage of forced induction is that it is less sensible to altitude power loss. i dont know if you (racing) guys experience the same but we usually drive in areas that range from sea level to 8000 ft.

[philofab]

Spec pop off valves would work if you wanted to limit boost in a class. Thats how the road race stuff works. I still think that it should only be allowed in unlimited classes. People that throw huge money at motors now would just throw more and a turbo to make even more horsepower... like a 600hp 10 car. It would not level the playing field in spec/limited classes.

[John F2000]

For the unlimited classes, altitude is probably not a huge problem, at least for baja and so cal deserts. Colorado racers would probably feel different. I am sure there is a noticeable difference in the smaller spec classes at any altitude change.


John
as a side note;
im kinda new here on this forum and have no clue at all about desert racing (but i love everything tech and hope to learn and share a little over here :P )
it is interesting for me to see that we share so much in engine philosophy ....;)


IMHO one huge advantage of forced induction is that it is less sensible to altitude power loss. i dont know if you (racing) guys experience the same but we usually drive in areas that range from sea level to 8000 ft.