Obama-ites, A good description.

[pjc]

To get an idea of what this country may soon be in for, look what's hanging on the wall of the Obama campaign workers in this video (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=5700252&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1). It's the flag of the miserable communist dictatorship Cuba, embellished with the face of Che Guevara.

As Fidel Castro's personal executioner, Guevara established himself as one of the most profoundly evil characters in modern history. The flag displayed by Obama's flunkies is no less sinister than a Nazi flag featuring Heinrich Himmler.

Cuban expat Humberto Fontova (http://www.hfontova.com/) has background on Che (http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={50C84DE3-56E9-44C4-B7E7-43305CB15405**) you won't get from your left-leaning history prof. Illustrating just what it takes to get your face on the wall of Obama supporters, here again are some famous Che quotations:

Dismissing the objections of a colleague who understood the importance of trials and proof:

Go ahead and try them tomorrow morning — but execute them NOW!

From his Motorcycle Diaries, which acolyte Robert Redford managed to edit into a cinematic hagiography:

Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!

Instructing his Revolutionary Tribunals:

We don't need proof to execute a man. We only need proof that it's necessary to execute him. A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.

From a letter to his father:

I'd like to confess, papa, at that moment I discovered that I really like killing.

Summing up socialism, after describing how he shot some poor helpless guy in the head at point-blank range:

He went into convulsions for a while and was finally still. Now his belongings were mine.

To a 14-year-old boy, just before he personally blew the kid's brains out for trying to defend his father, who was also executed:

I said: KNEEL DOWN!

(The kid wouldn't kneel and had to be murdered standing up.)

If the depraved, moronic idiots who admire this fiend get into the White House, they will inflict on America a decline that may not be reversible.

http://www.moonbattery.com/che_guevara_dead.jpg

Che is dead. But evil lives. All it needs is "hope" from the idealistic, self disenfranchised.

[DEZERTSUB]

Scary and yet a distinct possibility.. I wish more people could do research and find out the truths about our candidates, and not just hearing what they wanna hear.

Thanks for posting this.

[Ol' Curmudgeon]

[QUOTE=pjc;404698] embellished with the face of Che Guevara.

Pat,

My wife got me a "Che Homer" t-shirt in Argentina last year, good old USA cartoon characters making a buck off the sweating backs of socialist revolutionaries.

Restored my faith in American hegemony. We ARE the champions of the world!

Lots of ex-soviets making money on e-bay too, selling my stepson various relics like a "most glorious defender of the people" vodka flask!

But don't get me started on John "Manchurian carpetbagger" McCain, either.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Some of Che’s actions were grotesque under any context; No one can defend the indefensible…..

What you miss is that us, (Latin-Americans) hold him still in high regard, not because of his actions, but his ideals….”Sort of a Robin Hood with a Machine Gun”.
I am convinced this will be hard to understand, since he was always pertain as a villain in your culture…But for the people who lived in extreme poverty and oppression, he was their only hope.


Latin –America is a place where injustice and oppression rule and human life just matters if it’s associated with a $ price.

I doubt the new generations really understand the message; he has become ironically just a pop icon to symbolize the “Eternal Rebel”.

Even bands like “Rage Against the Machine” use him as an icon. I guess if you are over 40, its hard to understand Generation X.

By the way, I know you will not listen and just put me bad rep….You do that to anybody who dares to disagrees with the “Great Old wise Patrick J. Chicas”

[pjc]

[QUOTE=pjc;404698]
But don't get me started on John "Manchurian carpetbagger" McCain, either.

I know, it sucks.

What is worse is the dangerous naivete of Obama that IMVSO will cost the life of one or more of my children whom will have to fight wars that we could have avoided via military strength instead of Tea Parties with the Terrorists.

Then there is Hillary, but she's already washed up.

[pjc]

Some of Che’s actions were grotesque under any context; No one can defend the indefensible…..

What you miss is that us, (Latin-Americans) hold him still in high regard, not because of his actions, but his ideals….”Sort of a Robin Hood with a Machine Gun”.
I am convinced this will be hard to understand, since he was always pertain as a villain in your culture…But for the people who lived in extreme poverty and oppression, he was their only hope.


Fine, he had a place in liberating people from oppression in Third World cesspools.

Now, clearly understand that the US is the farthest thing on the planet from that environment. Why any moron whom lives by the fruit of this great nation aspires to this brutal thug is only an indication of severe narcissism and, or mental retardation.



By the way, I know you will not listen and just put me bad rep….You do that to anybody who dares to disagrees with the “Great Old wise Patrick J. Chicas”

You just lost the debate.

[Alex Paterson]

Maybe there is a other reason then the support of a ruthless, revolutionary?

Bush Sr and family has ties to the Laden family and there oil but that seems to go over looked.

Who knows why it was up there, do you? Is it because Obama is going to win the election and over throw the US government and turn it into a socialist society..Doubt it.

Also, Comparing Che to the Nazis is like comparing a Class 11 to a brand new Jimco V10 powered Class one (gotta keep it in the sport that this web paged is based off of. There really is no comparison.

Take it for what you will, I am just saying there is more to a picture and would say it if was any candidate your were questioning.

Alex

[pjc]

Maybe there is a other reason then the support of a ruthless, revolutionary?

Bush Sr and family has ties to the Laden family and there oil but that seems to go over looked.


Yes, the part of the Bin laden family that has denounced Osama's actions.



Who knows why it was up there, do you? Is it because Obama is going to win the election and over throw the US government and turn it into a socialist society..Doubt it.


Don't. Start looking at the liberties you enjoy that will be outlawed. He owes the enviros big time. They will want their goal of elimination of motorized recreation on public lands on the table.



Also, Comparing Che to the Nazis


How's that? By all indications they both were calculating, cold blooded, gleeful murders. One entity was just better organized.



Take it for what you will, I am just saying there is more to a picture and would say it if was any candidate your were questioning.


Go ahead, question me on McCain.

[DaveGores]

Bush Sr and family has ties to the Laden family and there oil but that seems to go over looked.

There is a big difference between the Bin Laden family and the ostracized dirty cave-dweller Osama Bin Laden.


Also, Comparing Che to the Nazis is like comparing a Class 11 to a brand new Jimco V10 powered Class one (gotta keep it in the sport that this web paged is based off of. There really is no comparison.

How so? Che was a murderous thug and so was Hitler.

**PJC's too fast for me.**

[Infidel Racing Team]

Fine, he had a place in liberating people from oppression in Third World cesspools.
.

Exactly, And for that he is remembered....That is a fine goal if you ask me, I dont agree with his methods at all, but unfortunately our corrupt leaders only hear the poor when there is a cannon in the chorus.....Hey, its unfortunate...but that is sadly how it plays...



Now, clearly understand that the US is the farthest thing on the planet from that environment. Why any moron whom lives by the fruit of this great nation aspires to this brutal thug is only an indication of severe narcissism and, or mental retardation.
.

I agree, yours is truly a great nation....worthy of admiration. I speak from my heart.
But reality is a bit different...I am quite close to many expats here, which I have to help get medical attention because the system (according to them) is broken and unfair. They feel lied to and forgotten about....(both by Dem & Reps).

If you are fair, many city centers do look very similar to a 3rd world country in more than 1 way....
Again, this comes from a foreign guy with many, many American friends who would disagree with your statements.

Then again, it wouldnt be totally out of the question if that guys just likes "Rage against the Machine".....Heck is good music if you are into hardcore grudge.




You just lost the debate..

Come on :D , when has it been a "debate" with you?

[pjc]

I am quite close to many expats here, which I have to help get medical attention because the system (according to them) is broken and unfair. They feel lied to and forgotten about....(both by Dem & Reps).


I am confused! You are living in the US and are helping expatriates from other countries in the US that are democrats and republicans?



If you are fair, many city centers do look very similar to a 3rd world country in more than 1 way.... Again, this comes from a foreign guy with many, many American friends who would disagree with your statements.


So you are comparing the worst urban areas in the US to average urban areas in third world countries? Now that would be completely fair.

How many of your friends have spent a moment in third world slums? I'd wager - ZERO!



Then again, it wouldnt be totally out of the question if that guys just likes "Rage against the Machine".....Heck is good music if you are into hardcore grudge.


Eff those morons! They also supported the actions of so-called eco-warriors.

[Infidel Racing Team]

After watching the video I can honestly tell you it is a “Latin” thing….

The reading between the lines is
“Obama looks out for the little guy…”
“Obama=Robin Hood….”

That is well engraved in the Hispanic population UNLESS you are Cuban. That same symbol would destroy a campaign in Miami where the Latin communities are descendants of wealthy Cubans who were heavily affected by Che’s policies.

You really need to be “Latinized” to understand this…..It is just like how WASPs laugh about “Larry the Cable Guy”

Take a chill pill :), they are just playing for a specific audience….

[pjc]

Take a chill pill :), they are just playing for a specific audience….

With symbols that are repulsive?

Nice..

BTW, just what does "the little guy" (the people you seem to know about) expect in this country where seasoned and aspiring entrepreneurs across the globe flood to, to seek their fortune?

[Infidel Racing Team]

I am confused! You are living in the US and are helping expatriates from other countries in the US that are democrats and republicans?
.

Nop sir, I am a Mexican living in Mexico, which happens to like spending tons of my free time fishing, off roading and helping the expat community in my country. ( I do it for free, cause they are quite good friends)

You have no Idea how much time I spend listening to rants for both Dems & Reps when you are among with my dear gringo friends (gringo is an endearing term for them, trust me). The rants seem to be exponentially growing when the boat's average age goes to 65!!



So you are comparing the worst urban areas in the US to average urban areas in third world countries? Now that would be completely fair.

How many of your friends have spent a moment in third world slums? I'd wager - ZERO!
.

Hmmm....I hate to admit it, but I live surrounded by them, so do they:D




Eff those morons! They also supported the actions of so-called eco-warriors.
.

Yawns.....I bet when you were young your elders complaint about your music choice.

Its part of being young and passionate, nothing wrong with it....we all learn to be cynic grouches with age

[Infidel Racing Team]

With symbols that are repulsive?

Nice..

BTW, just what does "the little guy" (the people you seem to know about) expect in this country where seasoned and aspiring entrepreneurs across the globe flood to, to seek their fortune?

Different symbols mean different things to different people….

It is obvious that symbol infuriates you, but to some it can be “cool”, “fashionable” even a ray of hope…..That is a fact, not my imagination.

I would be a hypocrite if I try to tell you I was part of the little guy. I am fortunate to have had the means to study in many places in the world and study many languages.

I do my living partly by being open minded to different cultures, among my clients I have many Americans, Germans and Arabs. I have to be open minded about their needs to the extent they don’t violate the others…..Trust me, it is hard. I know you will understand because you seem to be a successful entrepreneur yourself.

Maybe the only difference is that I might not be very big now, but I hope I will.

Now not everybody wants the American Dream. I have had the chance to go (legally, I must clarify :p ) to the States to work, but I know I wouldn’t fit 100%.
I admire those who venture in to your country with nothing but the will to work and legally earn a buck.

I am in no position to tell you what to do or think, but being just a bit open minded might be really positive to understand where people different than you are coming from.

[Chase 2]

To get an idea of what this country may soon be in for, look what's hanging on the wall of the Obama campaign workers in

OK, but did you listen to what the guy said?????? “The offices were opened by volunteers and paid staff are expected to move in by the end of the week.” The fact that volunteers have a something hung in an office says nothing about Obama's views of anything. I bet that the fat chick sitting behind the desk gets her arse handed to her by the Obama people when they see that vid. Try another route, this one is a dead end. Did you really come up with this yourself, or did you cut & paste it from somewhere else?

[Alex Paterson]

Yes, the part of the Bin laden family that has denounced Osama's actions.



Don't. Start looking at the liberties you enjoy that will be outlawed. He owes the enviros big time. They will want their goal of elimination of motorized recreation on public lands on the table.



How's that? By all indications they both were calculating, cold blooded, gleeful murders. One entity was just better organized.



Go ahead, question me on McCain.


This is why I stay out of this stuff on line, its a waste of time.

Carry On.

Alex

[pjc]

OK, but did you listen to what the guy said?????? “The offices were opened by volunteers and paid staff are expected to move in by the end of the week.” The fact that volunteers have a something hung in an office says nothing about Obama's views of anything.


True, but this is a great expose of the mindset of people so enthralled with his, "hope" rhetoric akin to a southern, religious revival tent.



Try another route, this one is a dead end.


I wish there was another route but Obama has yet to do anything more than pander to empty headed people that respond to sound bites instead of contemplating reality.

I eagerly await hard question on real topics for Mr. Obama.



Did you really come up with this yourself, or did you cut & paste it from somewhere else?

Does it matter?

[Shotdsherrif]

With symbols that are repulsive?

Nice..

BTW, just what does "the little guy" (the people you seem to know about) expect in this country where seasoned and aspiring entrepreneurs across the globe flood to, to seek their fortune?

PJC ... I'm not getting into the political aspect of this thread because I don't think there really is one. I'm only going to say that if you are not aware of what a kick-ass band Rage Against the Machine was in the 90's then the only thing you are really communicating is that you are OLD.

Its kinda like telling kids not to listen to Elvis because he plays the "Devil's Music" ... You are only asking to be ignored. Seriously, I agree with a number of things you say, if maybe not your constantly abrasive tone ... but you gotta let thje kids listen to their music. You CANNOT win this one. Let it go.

[pjc]

Its kinda like telling kids not to listen to Elvis because he plays the "Devil's Music" ... You are only asking to be ignored. Seriously, I agree with a number of things you say, if maybe not your constantly abrasive tone ... but you gotta let thje kids listen to their music. You CANNOT win this one. Let it go.

You are making a poor assumption. I listen to all music except Hip Hop and excluding rants from so called musicians that clearly have spoken against my liberties. The later crosses all genres.

[pjc]

Nop sir, I am a Mexican living in Mexico, which happens to like spending tons of my free time fishing, off roading and helping the expat community in my country. ( I do it for free, cause they are quite good friends)


Gottit.



You have no Idea how much time I spend listening to rants for both Dems & Reps when you are among with my dear gringo friends (gringo is an endearing term for them, trust me). The rants seem to be exponentially growing when the boat's average age goes to 65!!


I blame the trial lawyers for a large percentage of the rise in Health costs. Guess who they side with politically?



Yawns.....I bet when you were young your elders complaint about your music choice.


I thought you were a bit more bright. I could care less about what their music sounds like, I do care and I do oppose their political stance that is clearly about restricting my liberties.



Its part of being young and passionate, nothing wrong with it....we all learn to be cynic grouches with age

We learn to be realists with the experience of age.

[J Caster]

You really need to be “Latinized” to understand this…..It is just like how WASPs laugh about “Larry the Cable Guy”

What is WASPs?

[PLS]

What is WASPs?

White Anglo Saxon Protestants, i.e. your "average" white american.

[J Caster]

White Anglo Saxon Protestants, i.e. your "average" white american.

Well in that case I want to start throwing the racist card now! :D

[Infidel Racing Team]

PJC ... I'm not getting into the political aspect of this thread because I don't think there really is one. I'm only going to say that if you are not aware of what a kick-ass band Rage Against the Machine was in the 90's then the only thing you are really communicating is that you are OLD.

Its kinda like telling kids not to listen to Elvis because he plays the "Devil's Music" ... You are only asking to be ignored. Seriously, I agree with a number of things you say, if maybe not your constantly abrasive tone ... but you gotta let thje kids listen to their music. You CANNOT win this one. Let it go.

Amen to this...
Great Band!!!
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/LPG/51051.jpg

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/07/05/02_rageagainst_lg.jpg

[Infidel Racing Team]

Man I just love this song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY[/QUOTE]

[Infidel Racing Team]

Man I just love this song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY

Here is more "Devil's Music"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv3xM3v4-rI[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


YouTube - Rage Against The Machine - Testify Music Video

[MikesF1Fiddy]

Didnt read through the entire thread but just wanted to add. I hate to say it but Obama would more then likely be assassinated within the first year of his presidency if elected.(thus making him a "political hero" like Che) Bottom line his utter disrespect to our country in so many ways that people overlook by voting for him is discusting and I consider it a slap in the face.

[pjc]

Here is more "Devil's Music"


Hmm, either you have a comprehension problem or, you are trying to be clever by attempting to divert away from the points of discussion and debate where you are evidently unarmed.

But let's discuss your latest concept, i.e. that "Musicians can say whatever they want on political issues as long as their music sounds good". Correct me if I have that wrong.

Now, RATm has called for President Bush to be shot and evidently, that's okay.

How about if a White Supremacy band called for the death of Illegal Aliens and their music sounded really good. Would you support them? Would it be okay?

[pjc]

Didnt read through the entire thread but just wanted to add. I hate to say it but Obama would more then likely be assassinated within the first year of his presidency if elected.(thus making him a "political hero" like Che) Bottom line his utter disrespect to our country in so many ways that people overlook by voting for him is discusting and I consider it a slap in the face.

Hell, I am waiting eagerly to finally hear him present a platform instead of his all too common to date, revival tent theatrics.

I don't think he will be assassinated but I can guarantee a triad of political control in 2008 will result in massive defeat of the liberals in 2010. Those old Hippies have been waiting a long, long time to dance naked in the streets.

[Shotdsherrif]

Hell, I am waiting eagerly to finally hear him present a platform instead of his all too common to date, revival tent theatrics.

I don't think he will be assassinated but I can guarantee a triad of political control in 2008 will result in massive defeat of the liberals in 2010. Those old Hippies have been waiting a long, long time to dance naked in the streets.

I agree with you that Obama is an unknown quantity who has said little of substance up to this point. But has it occurred to you that a good part of his allure is that he ISN'T playing the divisive issues that you seem so enamored with? He is polling surprisingly high among moderate Repubicans in case you haven't noticed.

[pjc]

I agree with you that Obama is an unknown quantity who has said little of substance up to this point. But has it occurred to you that a good part of his allure is that he ISN'T playing the divisive issues that you seem so enamored with? He is polling surprisingly high among moderate Repubicans in case you haven't noticed.

Well, don't you think it is of utmost importance that we know what he is truly about instead of just feeling good about his revival rhetoric?

When I listen to him, I think I am about to be hit up for a donation. Then there is the drone of yips and yammering from the nodding heads in the background. Truly scary!

[Vtr_Racing]

Like I said before, we dont have much to chose from. Obama has not said a thing. He has skirted around the edges but not made any clear statements.

[Shotdsherrif]

Well, don't you think it is of utmost importance that we know what he is truly about instead of just feeling good about his revival rhetoric?

When I listen to him, I think I am about to be hit up for a donation. Then there is the drone of yips and yammering from the nodding heads in the background. Truly scary!

I think you just don't like him because he's a Dem. And hey, fair enough.

But Bush was technically less experienced when he became President. And he also specifically campaigned on a platform of NON-intervention, which after 9-11, he completely turned his back on. So ... it is what it is. You didn't know back then either.

Truthfully though, both Clinton and Bush were themselves far more centrist than they'll ever get credit for. Clinton because of his personal issues and Bush because of the campaigns Karl Rove ran for him. And they both led our country through one of the most divisive periods in its history.

One of the things Obama IS saying, which you're trying hard not to listen to, is that he intends to lead in a way that is not divisive. Its not necessarily a bad thing is all I'm saying.

[Shotdsherrif]

Che Guevara was a douche BTW, always was, always will be.

But RATM kicks ass!!!!

[pjc]

But RATM kicks ass!!!!

Okay, here is the same question for you, i.e. that "Musicians can say whatever they want on political issues as long as their music sounds good". Correct me if I have that wrong.

Now, RATm has called for President Bush to be shot and evidently, that's okay.

How about if a White Supremacy band called for the death of Illegal Aliens and their music sounded really good. Would you support them? Would it be okay?

[pjc]

I think you just don't like him because he's a Dem. And hey, fair enough.


That's "strike one".



But Bush was technically less experienced when he became President. And he also specifically campaigned on a platform of NON-intervention, which after 9-11, he completely turned his back on. So ... it is what it is. You didn't know back then either.


Bush campaigned on small government and a strong military. I do not remember anything about non-intervention after the Kosovo campaign as an example. Do you have references otherwise?



Truthfully though, both Clinton and Bush were themselves far more centrist than they'll ever get credit for. Clinton because of his personal issues.


You logic that Clinton is a moderate politician because of his sexual indiscretions completely fail me.



One of the things Obama IS saying, which you're trying hard not to listen to, is that he intends to lead in a way that is not divisive. Its not necessarily a bad thing is all I'm saying.

I hear those "cheap words". What I want to hear is his platform on:

* Extended US presence in the Middle East.
* Iran's Nukes.
* Energy independence.
* His desires to adhere to the Global Warming Hoax.

Via the socialists and Marxist fundamentals of today's Democrats, I am pretty sure I will be unhappy with his answers but, none the less I wait eagerly for this guy to grow a spine and speak.

What unnerves me is the amount of US citizens that are polarized to be so enamoured with him over nothing but revival tent theatrics.

[R_TAYLOR]

As Bush recently said in an interview, Washington DC is an ugly place. Divided we will fall,and we are seeing the effects of that divisivness. To many hands in the cookie jar.

[Shotdsherrif]

Okay, here is the same question for you, i.e. that "Musicians can say whatever they want on political issues as long as their music sounds good". Correct me if I have that wrong.

Now, RATm has called for President Bush to be shot and evidently, that's okay.

How about if a White Supremacy band called for the death of Illegal Aliens and their music sounded really good. Would you support them? Would it be okay?

The point is ... Its Rock n Roll, by definition its juvenile and rebellious. So having a serious discussion about ... I just can't do it. Didn't you post somewhere recently that you had been speaking to young people and having a hard time getting through to them ... ??? ... Hellooo ... !!!

I could call you out for glorifying organized crime by having your crew named the Dirt MOB. But I'm going to assume you don't murder people, run illicit gambling and prostitution operations, right? I hope I'm right about that.

The guy in the other thread said it well. Zach from Rage made me think with his lyrics. He made me go read ... and once I did, I realized his outlook is a little skewed. But there is nothing wrong with making people think. Its the idea that America somehow needs to be defended from Americans; that's all I'm objecting to. Its part of my having faith in this country that I refuse to get bent about these things.

As Winston Chruchill said, "If you're not a Liberal when you're young, you have no heart and if you're not a Conservative when you're old, you have no brain."

[pjc]

Didn't you post somewhere recently that you had been speaking to young people and having a hard time getting through to them ... ??? ... Hellooo ... !!!


Nope, not me.



I could call you out for glorifying organized crime by having your crew named the Dirt MOB. But I'm going to assume you don't murder people, run illicit gambling and prostitution operations, right? I hope I'm right about that.


Nah, but some of us are bootleggers of finely crafted beer.



The guy in the other thread said it well. Zach from Rage made me think with his lyrics. He made me go read ... and once I did, I realized his outlook is a little skewed. But there is nothing wrong with making people think. Its the idea that America somehow needs to be defended from Americans; that's all I'm objecting to. Its part of my having faith in this country that I refuse to get bent about these things.


Do you "get bent" about enviros that want to remove your liberties?



As Winston Chruchill said, "If you're not a Liberal when you're young, you have no heart and if you're not a Conservative when you're old, you have no brain."

I was a lib as a very young man, briefly 'till I realized my favorite sport was being villainized by a bunch of power hungry eco-punks empowered by nothing but liberal, Democrat politicians.

You are probably way to young to remember the decisive land use fights in the 70's and 80's.

[Vtr_Racing]

I think any of the "entertainers" are just that, entertainers. What RAGM says, I could really care less about. Same for Bruce Springsteen, Dixie Chicks, John Mellencamp and the list goes on. I also dont buy their stuff either. As Tom Petty once said, why buy it when you can get it for free. I guess its called sharing in Al Gore`s internet. Right now, it looks like Obama cleaned up on Hillary. I have my suspicions on Obama. I have listened to him speak a number of times and while he can hold an audiance, speaks well, he doesnt say much.

[Shotdsherrif]

Nope, not me.



Nah, but some of us are bootleggers of finely crafted beer.



Do you "get bent" about enviros that want to remove your liberties?



I was a lib as a very young man, briefly 'till I realized my favorite sport was being villainized by a bunch of power hungry eco-punks empowered by nothing but liberal, Democrat politicians.

You are probably way to young to remember the decisive land use fights in the 70's and 80's.

No, I don't know much, but honestly, I would be interested in learning some of it.

I'll tell you some of what I do know about 'access rights'. And this goes back to my rock-climbing days. The Sierra Club has actually been in a position to advocate on behalf of rock climbers, whereas I know they are public enemy #1 with off-roaders. What I've seen happen a number of times is different sides come to the table and set out some version of 'fair-use guidelines'. In one example, there was a local Indian tribe that considered this one particualr mountain "sacred" even though it wasn't on the reservation. They ended up requesting that for 10 days out of the year, if rock climbers could please stay off of it so they could ... whatever they do, eat peyote and hum.

But for whatever reason there would always be this one group of yahoos that just needed to be dicks about it and go to the mountain just on those days. And that would end up setting access rights back for everbody. It was always this small group of idiots that felt they needed to spit in the punch bowl 'on principle'. And to an extent, it does reflect the libertarian streak of the West but at the end of the day, it is also a form of ignorance and lack of respect.

There is an element of that in off-roading as well. Irresponsibility, stupidity, lack of class and lack of respect; its a very small percentage overall, but its there. And the perception to the rest of the outside world is that they must rule the roost.

And I'll tell you this about the eco-freaks ... yes, there are a few hardore fundamentalists out there that obviously hate humanity; pasty-faced vegans of vague at best, sexual tendencies, youy know the type. But what it mostly is about is a lot of people in the middle who have been swayed because of the clever PR/media that they've been inundated with ... and they get sucked into it because they feel it must be the right thing to do - like Chapulin; conscientious but deluded by mushy propaganda (sorry Gustavo). And yes, they can be annoying and naive. But giving them the drill sargent treatment at every turn is most definitely not the right approach toward swaying some of them back.

I guess I still see some of these issues as open and haven't given up. This whole Al Gore induced madness; carbon credits, footprints etc will all eventually collapse under its own weight. A lot of it is already starting to sound unreasonable ... so if you make the effort to present reasonable alternatives, then the conflicts might go away by themselves. But it takes being willing to approach the issue in a non-adversarial way.

Ok, off my stump. I'll shut up. And gladly hear whay you have to say. ...

[Infidel Racing Team]

Hello, This is again Gustavo, I changed my name for the obvious reasons….I think it suits me better in this forum

I still haven’t seen compelling evidence of why GW is a hoax. Patrick’s abrasive tone adds nothing, on the contrary…..If he is like that on real life, he wouldn’t be someone I would like to hang around regardless how knowledgeable he is in the Off road world

I wish GW was a hoax, I really do….I first discovered GW when Carl Sagan brought it to light in the late 80’s and early 90’s.

For what I have read so far, seems PJC has not understood the problem (GW will bring high temperature swings, including harsh winters and hot summers). If I have to choose who to believe between Carl Sagan’s studies or Patrick’s high school news paper articles….I chose the first one

Since you guys already know I am not a US citizen, US politics don’t come anything near my decision to think GW is a real threat.

I also think the weather is something that has not been fully understood and many ,many factors affect it. Still the Co2 vs earth temperature correlation charts are quite strong evidence of man’s presence in this earth

What it is a shame is that people in this forum ridicule and insult anyone who thinks differently ….Specially when that person uses critical thinking.

[pjc]

Patrick’s abrasive tone adds nothing,


What a sniveler!




For what I have read so far, seems PJC has not understood the problem (GW will bring high temperature swings, including harsh winters and hot summers). If I have to choose who to believe between Carl Sagan’s studies or Patrick’s high school news paper articles….I chose the first one


Tell ya what, Off-road racing as the frivolous use of fossil fuel must be very detrimental to the earth's climate per your beliefs. Right?

I suggest you set an example for us all and disown this activity post haste and in total. Show us all the way!

[R_TAYLOR]

Obama voted yesterday against the FISA bill. Hillary didnt vote. Neither candidate seems too worried about the security of this country.

[pjc]

Obama voted yesterday against the FISA bill. Hillary didnt vote. Neither candidate seems too worried about the security of this country.

In his revival tent shows, B. Hussein says we should all be happy, proud and should have hope? Of course he hasn't a single political accomplishment to let the thinking populace begin to ponder what he is about and decide accordingly.

--- I just got this EM from a friend and mentor. As usual, Rick sums things up well.


Yo Pat

I've been following the political zoo rather closely and have come to the following conclusions:

* Clinton will lose the Dem nomination, mostly because we've had 18 years of Bush/Clinton/Bush Jr. Also, she's not a likeable person and has made way too many enemies over the years. Bill has been helping her, and that has been a mistake, because he feels she's an automatic winner, and that will put him back in the White House. He also has made too many enemies.

* Obama will win the Dem nom simply because he's a good speaker. He says utterly nothing, but says it in syrupy tones. Bush is a train wreck as a speaker and the Obama followers find Obama's empty suit irrisistable. I have heard nothing but cliches and platitudes from Obama, but he really delivers all that crap smoothly.

* McCaine is a better speaker than Bush, but not much better. Hell, my Rotweiller is a better speaker. When McCain gets flustered or pissed, he freezes up and stutters.

* Overall, McCain will probably win, mostly because of a white backlash vote against Obama. This will probably cause some 60's style riots in cities like Detroit. McCain is far too liberal for me, but I'll have to hold my nose and vote for him. All in all, a sad and sorry state of affairs.

Later
Rick Sieman

[R_TAYLOR]

Pretty well hit the nail on the head Pat. The sad thing is 65% of this voting public probably doesnt know what FISA is or what does Obama say of any substance.NOTHING

[randy s]

I agree with you that Obama is an unknown quantity who has said little of substance up to this point. But has it occurred to you that a good part of his allure is that he ISN'T playing the divisive issues that you seem so enamored with? He is polling surprisingly high among moderate Repubicans in case you haven't noticed.

yep. they're called barrackefeller republicans.

[Vtr_Racing]

I think Rick should go on the talk show circuit. I think most people have issues with the candidates and are very suspect.