Some TAX Facts!

[pjc]

Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican, you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen.

[Ryno]

Pat-

People didn't deal with their 20 year old kids coming home in boxes with Clinton. Nor did they have to deal with a President who let a personal vendetta get out of control. Now WE (Everyone) have to pay for it. I'm all for lower taxes, but at what point do you have to give up on lower taxes to gain other factors (economy, healthcare, education).

So, let's think about this...do you give up lower taxes for a ****ty education for your kids? What about after school, music, sports, etc?? All that gets cut first when we have to pay the debt from a war.

By the way, I own a truck with a big block, have more than 5 guns, and have alot of pride in doing what I do for a living. I'm certainly not a democrat, but they seem to have a better time facing reality.

[R_TAYLOR]

So lets see, under Clinton education was perfect. Thats laughable.BTW Obamas kids are in private school. And are we the public supposed to take care of the kids after school?? The park or backyard worked when I was young.Why the hell cant you? And last I was taught if someone attacks you hit back.Libs will never get it. You can talk nice all you want and the muslims will still lop your head off. BTW, I only own 2 guns but if Im attacked I will use them.

[R_TAYLOR]

And on pats original post, whywould anyone want to pay 500 dollars a month more in taxes by putting a Democrat in office. Thats just 500 more they will toss out the wind ow. I can spend my $$$$$$$$ a lot better than ANYONE in Washington can. Sometimes I feel like Im talking to a wall.

[Ryno]

$500 a month. I'll bet alot of Army/ Marine families would pay much more than that to have their kid back. I'm all for kicking ass when it needs to be kicked, but now we're paying for us to police their country, while they still kill each other.

I fully understand what you are saying Mr. Taylor. Last year the wife and I jumped what must have been about 4 tax brackets. It sucked. The more you work your ass off, get educated, and get a better job, the more gravel they add to the pit to drag you across.

[pappawheely]

Pat-

People didn't deal with their 20 year old kids coming home in boxes with Clinton. I'm certainly not a democrat, but they seem to have a better time facing reality.

Nobody died in Somalia? I guess I should take my "blackhawk down" dvd back. If Bill Clinton would have faced reality 5000 Americans would not have been killed. I forgot 9-11 is not reality to some Democrats. They have already forgotten.

[pjc]

Pat-
People didn't deal with their 20 year old kids coming home in boxes with Clinton.


Nope, our men and women are coming home in boxes or were vaporized on 911 by Klinton's inactions. The same will happen if the "dangerously naive one" is elected as POTUS.



Nor did they have to deal with a President who let a personal vendetta get out of control. Now WE (Everyone) have to pay for it.


See my concept of "The big bug light to attract AQ vermin" in other posts. It has worked extremely well.



I'm all for lower taxes, but at what point do you have to give up on lower taxes to gain other factors (economy, healthcare, education).


Please elaborate on how lower taxes is a detriment to our society and economy.



So, let's think about this...do you give up lower taxes for a ****ty education for your kids? What about after school, music, sports, etc?? All that gets cut first when we have to pay the debt from a war.


Not so, your public school budget is largely derived from local taxes, i.e. state income tax, property tax, use tax etc. etc.



By the way, I own a truck with a big block, have more than 5 guns, and have alot of pride in doing what I do for a living. I'm certainly not a democrat, but they seem to have a better time facing reality.

Honestly, Obama's empty speech's and the appeal of same to empty minds are downright scary.

Time to buy gold.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Honestly, Obama's empty speech's and the appeal of same to empty minds are downright scary.

Time to buy gold.


Oversimplifying and Belittling opponents is an insult to people’s intelligence, No one with half a brain honestly thinks Obama is “empty minded “.

If his speeches are ambiguous is because he is following a strategy, we can agree or disagree with it, but he is intentionally not overcommitting himself to much at this stage….For what is worth, seems that is working for him vs Hillary.

[pjc]

Oversimplifying and Belittling opponents is an insult to people’s intelligence, No one with half a brain honestly thinks Obama is “empty minded “.

If his speeches are ambiguous is because he is following a strategy, we can agree or disagree with it, but he is intentionally not overcommitting himself to much at this stage….For what is worth, seems that is working for him vs Hillary.

Gustavo, you need to bone up on your english. To expand for your sake, I said that the sheeple he has won over with nothing but platitude are "empty minded".

Now when are you going to tell us about your Off-road Racing experience and why you frequent this site?

[Ol' Curmudgeon]

Time to buy gold.

SHANGHAI - Black Market Chinese Moneychangers now refusing US dollars.

Republicrats or Democraticans both need to get ahold of our debt issues or dollar will continue to erode.

Talk about sub-prime crisis!

[Captain Racer]

For those of you who feel this war is wrong, I would like to point out one hard fact. Since 911 the start of the war on terrorism there has not been any further attacks on US soil, I prefer to fight in someone elses backyard. And for those who think this war is about oil or revenge guess again. It's for your survival as a Christian, Jew, or what ever religion you are other than muslim. The muslims are trying to take over and their religion is growing by leaps an bounds over the non-muslim religions. Do some home work and learn your enemies. I hope you enjoy your way of life today, because it could severly change in a couple of months. Although I pray to GOD it doesn't and that's all I'm gonna say about that..

[Infidel Racing Team]

Gustavo, you need to bone up on your english. To expand for your sake, I said that the sheeple he has won over with nothing but platitude are "empty minded".

Now when are you going to tell us about your Off-road Racing experience and why you frequent this site?

We can try this same conversation in Spanish if you want, I assure you my spanish far better than my English and German.


As far as my off road experience I dont owe you any explanation at all. I told you before, I have been involved in offroad recreation for over 8 years now, that is all the info YOU need.

I dont seek your acceptance and I dont care if you think I am a troll because I answer back ....This is NOT OFF-ROAD.COM, so you cant bully me around.

I conduct myself within the rules of this the greatest Offroad board and I can visit this forum as often as I want cause I also consider it "mine" (I share that feeling with the Desert Racing Community).

If Rubicom comes in the future to own this great site, then you can delete my account with all others that dont agree with you.

[pjc]

For those of you who feel this war is wrong, I would like to point out one hard fact. Since 911 the start of the war on terrorism there has not been any further attacks on US soil, I prefer to fight in someone elses backyard. And for those who think this war is about oil or revenge guess again. It's for your survival as a Christian, Jew, or what ever religion you are other than muslim. The muslims are trying to take over and their religion is growing by leaps an bounds over the non-muslim religions. Do some home work and learn your enemies. I hope you enjoy your way of life today, because it could severly change in a couple of months. Although I pray to GOD it doesn't and that's all I'm gonna say about that..

Isn't amusing that those with the most radical ideals (liberals) would be the most to suffer under Sharia law! Talk about short attention spans!

[DaveGores]

For those of you who feel this war is wrong, I would like to point out one hard fact. Since 911 the start of the war on terrorism there has not been any further attacks on US soil, I prefer to fight in someone elses backyard. And for those who think this war is about oil or revenge guess again. It's for your survival as a Christian, Jew, or what ever religion you are other than muslim. The muslims are trying to take over and their religion is growing by leaps an bounds over the non-muslim religions. Do some home work and learn your enemies. I hope you enjoy your way of life today, because it could severly change in a couple of months. Although I pray to GOD it doesn't and that's all I'm gonna say about that..

It's important to draw the distinction between radical Islam and the several hundred million Muslims who want nothing more than to practice their religion in peace. Muslim extremists don't just kill Christians, Jews and non-believers; they routinely kill fellow Muslims as well.

[Infidel Racing Team]

It's important to draw the distinction between radical Islam and the several hundred million Muslims who want nothing more than to practice their religion in peace. Muslim extremists don't just kill Christians, Jews and non-believers; they routinely kill fellow Muslims as well.

Lets not forget that there is also a huge ethnic hate between the Shi'a, Sunni and Kurds. This hate is far older and stronger than Islam itself.

[randy s]

i understand the right wingers frustation with the possibilty looming of an obama victory. they want to thrash clinton and obama every chance they get. but instead of spending every waking moment telling everyone how rotten and evil the dems are, why don't they spend more time supporting their own choice and all the good things john mccain will bring to all of us and the rest of the world? seems to me that if they had a candidate worth a darn, all they would have to do is tell us all how wonderful mccain is and they would'nt have to worry at all about obama, clinton or anyone else. seems like thrashing the other guy happens alot when you don't have s--t to offer up for yourself. could it be that even the right knows that mccain is a weenie? just curious.

[R_TAYLOR]

Yeah you are correct in saying McCains a weenie, but the alternative really sucks.

[DaveGores]

i understand the right wingers frustation with the possibilty looming of an obama victory. they want to thrash clinton and obama every chance they get. but instead of spending every waking moment telling everyone how rotten and evil the dems are, why don't they spend more time supporting their own choice and all the good things john mccain will bring to all of us and the rest of the world? seems to me that if they had a candidate worth a darn, all they would have to do is tell us all how wonderful mccain is and they would'nt have to worry at all about obama, clinton or anyone else. seems like thrashing the other guy happens alot when you don't have s--t to offer up for yourself. could it be that even the right knows that mccain is a weenie? just curious.

Let me get this straight. You're chastising conservatives for essentially the same thing Democrats have been doing since George W. Bush took office?

Pointing out the absurd promises of an empty suit or the hypocrisy and tainted past of the Clintons, not to mention both candidates open support of our move towards socialism isn't exactly thrashing your opponent, in my book; it's raising legitimate concerns.

[pjc]

We can try this same conversation in Spanish if you want, I assure you my spanish far better than my English and German.


Lemme see here, your mistake in interpreting what I said is discounted because I do not speak Spanish?



As far as my off road experience I dont owe you any explanation at all. I told you before, I have been involved in offroad recreation for over 8 years now, that is all the info YOU need.

I don't think you have anything to do with the Off-Road community except to be a troll on this website. I'd bet a cold beer that you are posting from the US instead of Mexico as you claim and that you are feigning ethnicity to further blend in what you may think is an acceptable, left wing platform.



so you cant bully me around[/I][/U][/B].


How 'am I bullying you around?

[pjc]

Let me get this straight. You're chastising conservatives for essentially the same thing Democrats have been doing since George W. Bush took office?

Pointing out the absurd promises of an empty suit or the hypocrisy and tainted past of the Clintons, not to mention both candidates open support of our move towards socialism isn't exactly thrashing your opponent, in my book; it's raising legitimate concerns.

Well said!

Add that both Obama and Clinton are members of the political party with the highest degree of power and alliance to the radical environmentalists.

Perhaps Randy S will be happy with off-road video games as opposed to the real thing. What you say Randy?

[Infidel Racing Team]

Lemme see here, your mistake in interpreting what I said is discounted because I do not speak Spanish?



I don't think you have anything to do with the Off-Road community except to be a troll on this website. I'd bet a cold beer that you are posting from the US instead of Mexico as you claim and that you are feigning ethnicity to further blend in what you may think is an acceptable, left wing platform.



How 'am I bullying you around?

Think whatever you want.....The last thing I need is acceptance from a character like you.
The best affirmation I have is that someonelike you does not like me....Means I am a good, intelligent free thinking man

[pjc]

The best affirmation I have is that someonelike you does not like me....Means I am a good, intelligent free thinking man

Gustavo,

What I don't like and what you should have no self respect for is your penchant to always be the victim.

Frankly, that is one more aspect you portray that does not fit in to the ORR community as a whole.

No go back to DemocraticUnderground.com troll!

Too bad the mods don't enable IP address display on this website.

[DEZERTSUB]

Hooray For Boobies!

[Shotdsherrif]

I like boobies.

[pjc]

Damn, you guys scared Gustavo away with the Boobies talk. Maybe he is posting from Iran?

[pappawheely]

could it be that even the right knows that mccain is a weenie? just curious.



YES, HE IS A RINO

[Ryno]

Honestly, Obama's empty speech's and the appeal of same to empty minds are downright scary.

Time to buy gold.[/QUOTE]

I never said I was an Obama fan. Nor am I. Your absolutely right on that account, he's full of hot air.

I'm a republican Pat, but just because I don't agree with some things, don't put me over to the side of the Donkey. Facts are this....we went to war, at some point, we'll pay more in taxes to pay for it.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Gustavo,

What I don't like and what you should have no self respect for is your penchant to always be the victim.

Frankly, that is one more aspect you portray that does not fit in to the ORR community as a whole.

No go back to DemocraticUnderground.com troll!

Too bad the mods don't enable IP address display on this website.


Patrick,
Who the hell do you think you are? Specially talking on behalf of the ORR community.
The same community who deems you dangerous and a safety hazard. Article here (Btw Nice picture, just as I imagined you). (http://tinyurl.com/2e3rwd)


You just are as extremist, as fundamentalist and irrational as those cave dwellers on your paranoiac nightmares; it is too bad you are just too old and senile to see that all your stupid conclusions don’t hold any water.

Do not think for a moment you have earned your right to talk on behalf of anyone specially us the offroaders.
For that it would take an individual with intelligence , guts and values, concepts very foreign to you….

Anything else you might want to add say it to my face.

Signing Off

PS: Too bad you have disable your PMs cause I want to give you my cell phone in case you want to add anything.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Hooray For Boobies!


BTW This is an awesome record by the Bloodhound Gang......

I am with you: Hooray for Boobies!

[DEZERTSUB]

Yeah, mammaries are cool. I was trying to lighten the mood in here.

I read what you found there Gus, interesting bit of info.

Can we all stop with the pesonal attacks though, and go back to TAX FACTS???

Please??

I've said it before and I'll say it again...
HOORAY FOR BOOBIES!!!

[flyinbronco]

I for one don't believe that Baja racing news speaks for the off road racing community.

Pat you are right on the money. We didn't start this war on terror, they did on September 11th, 2001 when they killed 3,000 innocent people. You are also correct in that it is better to fight for our right to exist on their soil not ours, no matter where that fight takes us.

It was the failings of the Clinton administration that has put us in the situation we are in as citizens of this country. There is no Democrat running for the Presidency that understands the situation. We are at war against radical Islam for our very right to exist. I want a President that knows what the stakes are.

God bless our troops and they're families.

[randy s]

Well said!

Add that both Obama and Clinton are members of the political party with the highest degree of power and alliance to the radical environmentalists.

Perhaps Randy S will be happy with off-road video games as opposed to the real thing. What you say Randy?

or perhaps not.i'm too damn old for video games, but i'll race you in my 7s truck just for fun. you gonna race in san felipe? in what? if not, then try to make the 500. or the mil. if your racecar is in a faster class, we can work on how much head start i'll need or vice versa. or, i can just run your car over with my h1. relax, just kiddin'.

[Shotdsherrif]

I for one don't believe that Baja racing news speaks for the off road racing community.

Pat you are right on the money. We didn't start this war on terror, they did on September 11th, 2001 when they killed 3,000 innocent people. You are also correct in that it is better to fight for our right to exist on their soil not ours, no matter where that fight takes us.

It was the failings of the Clinton administration that has put us in the situation we are in as citizens of this country. There is no Democrat running for the Presidency that understands the situation. We are at war against radical Islam for our very right to exist. I want a President that knows what the stakes are.

God bless our troops and they're families.

Listen, this is a really complicated issue. I'm someone who has tended toward the left on many social issues but is otherwise fiscally conservative. And there are a LOT of poeple like me (especially in California) so one of the problems is this 'black or white' approach to looking at things. Its not helpful for anything other than releasing cheap, pent-up aggression. What I don't think pjc seems to realize is that there are a lot of people who might like to agree with him, if he wasn't such an a-hole about it.

I happened to support the war in Iraq, and I still support it. Maybe not for the reasons that we say we went in there but still. The thing that is important to understand is that Islam is basically at war with itself and there IS a moderate, forward-looking element there (the "liberals" of the middle east if you will) that it very much behooves us to support and bring along so that as many people as possible can begin to see the advantages of living in the 21st century in peace and prosperity just like most of the rest of the world.

I'm not saying George Bush hasn't done that. I'm just saying the perception exists that he hasn't done as much as he could. And there is something to that. Its not black or white.

And another thing, while I respect the need to protect ourselves and our soldiers. The situation is not exactly dire. We are dealing with people with cheap old russian rifles, who train on monkey bars and wear cheap knockoff sneakers from K-mart while doing it. They may want to destroy us but c'mon, they are for the most part, absolutley pathetic vermin who resort to blowing up old, learning disabled women when they get frustrated. This "enemy" is not at our level, they lack the dignity and self-respect to be considered true enemies. They are parasites and ultimately the people who will best be able to rid the world of them are those dignified and rational people among their own who get sick of their game and decide finally to grow some b*lls and do away with them themselves.

All I'm saying is that it would behoove us to keep those people in mind and maybe help them out once in a while. That is not a desire to retreat ... its just a logical reality.

[Mary Kay]

[quote=pappawheely;408863 I forgot 9-11 is not reality to some Democrats. They have already forgotten.[/quote]


not all........... i remember it like it was yesterday... and i am a democrat:)

its also my daughters birthday.....it was hard to expalin to a very young girl why so many were killed on her birthday!

thanks to all of the men and women, along with their family's, who work hard to protect our great country!

[pjc]

Patrick,
Who the hell do you think you are? Specially talking on behalf of the ORR community.


I am the person that thinks you are a liberal troll and that you are here to do nothing but create arguments and cause trouble.



The same community who deems you dangerous and a safety hazard. Article here (Btw Nice picture, just as I imagined you).


Gustavo, that article was written by Mike Overcast the most despised entity in off-road racing. Along with myself, he has also singled out Sal Fish, Bob Steinberger, the owners of Pirate4x4.com, Klaus, and other contributors to the community. I find myself in good company. Your complete lack of clues here is just one more indication that you are what I think you are, a troll and imposter.



Do not think for a moment you have earned your right to talk on behalf of anyone specially us the offroaders.


I have done so many times in public and private arenas. You may even find my name on the Congressional Record. So yes, I have spoken for the community. a community that I am confident you are not a part of.



Anything else you might want to add say it to my face.


It is obvious that you have been exposed and now you are pissed off. Mission accomplished!



PS: Too bad you have disable your PMs cause I want to give you my cell phone in case you want to add anything.

My PM's are not disabled Gustavo.

[pjc]

or perhaps not.i'm too damn old for video games, but i'll race you in my 7s truck just for fun. you gonna race in san felipe? in what? if not, then try to make the 500. or the mil. if your racecar is in a faster class, we can work on how much head start i'll need or vice versa. or, i can just run your car over with my h1. relax, just kiddin'.

Randy S, you type and speak like an adolescent. Excuse me if I misjudged your age.

Let me remove the "video game" remark and see if you remember some of the defining land use struggles from the past. As an older racer, I would think they are easy to recall the main fights that closed down most of the Mojave Desert in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Care to submit your answer?

[pjc]

And another thing, while I respect the need to protect ourselves and our soldiers. The situation is not exactly dire. We are dealing with people with cheap old russian rifles, who train on monkey bars and wear cheap knockoff sneakers from K-mart while doing it. They may want to destroy us but c'mon, they are for the most part, absolutley pathetic vermin who resort to blowing up old, learning disabled women when they get frustrated.


Underestimating them has the blood of 4000 dead American civilians attached.



They are parasites and ultimately the people who will best be able to rid the world of them are those dignified and rational people among their own who get sick of their game and decide finally to grow some b*lls and do away with them themselves.


Indeed.



All I'm saying is that it would behoove us to keep those people in mind and maybe help them out once in a while. That is not a desire to retreat ... its just a logical reality.

Time will tell.

[Shotdsherrif]

[QUOTE=pjc;409352]Underestimating them has the blood of 4000 dead American civilians attached.[QUOTE]

Yes, you have a point. But the battle is every bit as much mental as it is military. This cannot be won with military muscle alone. If it could, we'd already done so cuz its no contest.

Right now, there is a bright young Iraqi kid weighing whether he should join the new Iraqi armed forces to bring peace to his country OR go with the extremists in order to kill Americans. What should we be saying to this kid?

[pjc]

[/quote]
Yes, you have a point. But the battle is every bit as much mental as it is military. This cannot be won with military muscle alone. If it could, we'd already done so cuz its no contest.
[/quote]

Indeed, look at the policies of Gen Petraeus as an example of success.



Right now, there is a bright young Iraqi kid weighing whether he should join the new Iraqi armed forces to bring peace to his country OR go with the extremists in order to kill Americans. What should we be saying to this kid?

It's already being said and with affect. The progress as of late as an indication.

[pappawheely]

not all........... i remember it like it was yesterday... and i am a democrat:)

its also my daughters birthday.....it was hard to expalin to a very young girl why so many were killed on her birthday!

thanks to all of the men and women, along with their family's, who work hard to protect our great country!

That is why I wrote "some" Democrats Mary Kay. For people like you who still respect this country's ideals. :)

[dan200]

:o Wierd, I thought this thread was about Taxes. Then I realized it was about Boobies. Now I dont know what it is about. Maybe we should get a ruler out and everyone unzip and whe can get to the bottom of this.:o :)

[TreyP]

:o Wierd, I thought this thread was about Taxes. Then I realized it was about Boobies. Now I dont know what it is about. Maybe we should get a ruler out and everyone unzip and whe can get to the bottom of this.:o :)

Are you now saying this is a fantasy thread?;)

[JrSyko]

Its good to see PJC back!

Yeah boobies!

[pjc]

Its good to see PJC back!

Yeah boobies!

You and Noe doing the Mint? Didn't see you last weekend. 101 mile loops! We be testing on the 15th.

[JGunn]

Every person voting for a Dem will only point fingers later when they blame spending and Inflation going parabolic on fixing problems! If the GOP wins this November, the Republicans will not be able to point fingers with issues in the Executive office and a stalemate with Congress and the future Veto's are good for the economy...
I have a dream!


And on pats original post, whywould anyone want to pay 500 dollars a month more in taxes by putting a Democrat in office. Thats just 500 more they will toss out the wind ow. I can spend my $$$$$$$$ a lot better than ANYONE in Washington can. Sometimes I feel like Im talking to a wall.

[randy s]

Randy S, you type and speak like an adolescent. Excuse me if I misjudged your age.

Let me remove the "video game" remark and see if you remember some of the defining land use struggles from the past. As an older racer, I would think they are easy to recall the main fights that closed down most of the Mojave Desert in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Care to submit your answer?

nope. i don't know anything about that. i got a ticket for driving off maintained county roads when we wondered from ocotillo wells into borrego state park in around 1970 or so and i decided to spend my time wondering around baja norte since then. i decided in around 84 or 85 to lease a couple o lots down past san felipe where my dad and i used to fish in the mid 60s that i still have [although i don't go down as often as i used to or would like]. the california desert situation is something i've intentionally avoided. you know pjc, you seem like a smart guy, but you really have a lot to learn about people. what happened to you that makes you so damned mean spirited. if you ever come down my way {km 45.5 so. of s.f.,] you're welcome. but check your crappy attitude at the line . not everyone is out to get you. respectfully yours. randy s.

[pjc]

you know pjc, you seem like a smart guy, but you really have a lot to learn about people. what happened to you that makes you so damned mean spirited.


Randy, I wasn't the one that made threats.

On the contrary, one person whom I have had very heated, intelligent debates with many times in the past has just joined this thread. What you call "mean spirited" he has called "well informed". And he is a lawyer!



if you ever come down my way {km 45.5 so. of s.f.,] you're welcome. but check your crappy attitude at the line . not everyone is out to get you. respectfully yours. randy s.

I'll look you up. We hope to partake in the SCORE races in 09. As a new team, I wanna make sure we have our management and talent in the bottle in US races before we go to the extreme.

[DEZERTSUB]

Yeah boobies!

Best post I've ever seen by this guy:cool:

[JrSyko]

You and Noe doing the Mint? Didn't see you last weekend. 101 mile loops! We be testing on the 15th.

Not sure yet...work is killing me...tons of travel coming up so we'll see. We got Rob Mac driving our car this year too so I figured I'd give the other guys at least half a shot and sit this one out. You know what happens when I jump in the right seat...4 championships, back to back 1000 wins etc etc :-)

Did you buy that 10 car?

[JrSyko]

[QUOTE=pjc;410285]

On the contrary, one person whom I have had very heated, intelligent debates with many times in the past has just joined this thread. What you call "mean spirited" he has called "well informed". And he is a lawyer!


QUOTE]

We've had some good ones and lots of fun...I'm gonna sit this one up. I just spent all my free time showing Dezsub how wrong he is and now its back on the road for a couple weeks. I'll have to let the new generation take this one.

Randy - Be prepared...you'll have your hands full!

Enjoy fellas.

[pjc]

Did you buy that 10 car?

10-4 and had a great first race. Car is in prep now for the Mint. For this year, Joe Hauler and I are driving with some help from the previous owner. We plan to do the Mint, V2R and maybe one more MORE race. The whole shebang is sponsored by www.FreeConferenceCall.com

[EQuin]

Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican, you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen.

Interesting facts, assuming they're true. I, for one, thought only the upper tier income earners enjoyed tax cuts under Bush, but it looks like it's not only across the board, but the tax cuts are much more than I thought they were. Definitely an educational eye opener, but I suppose it's my own fault for allowing myself to be misled by reading only the headlines of certain media.

I agree that everyone, including myself, would like less taxes. I also agree that less taxes help stimulate the economy. I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no economist, but I thought tax cuts were good as a short term, temporary catalyst to boost a sagging economy. One thing that concerns me about the Bush tax cuts is the ever looming national debt. Here's an interesting article that talks a little about the national debt and the risk it poses to our economy:

http://www.economicshelp.org/2008/01/what-went-wrong-with-us-economy.html

Granted, I don't know how true that article is.

Assuming the points in that article are sound, though, then it appears that lowering taxes AND lowering spending can keep the national debt in check, but lowering taxes and INCREASING spending may be a recipe for economic disaster. It's no secret that lowering taxes and raising spending is what happened under the Bush Administration, but to be fair to Bush, the White House actually has little power to do that. CONGRESS is the one that passes tax legislation and appropriates funds for spending. So although the President may propose to Congress how much to tax and how much to spend, Congress is the one with the ultimate say on the matter, subject to the President's veto powers, of course, which Congress can always override anyway. The fact of the matter, though, is that for most of the Bush Administration's 8 year domain, Congress was dominated by the Republican party. So who should we blame for the large national debt before us?

Personally, I don't think it helps pointing fingers and blaming one party or one administration. Instead, we should look at the mistakes made so as to avoid making them in the future, and figure out a way to solve the problem, whether a Democrat or a Republican is in the White House. After all, we're all Americans regardless of political affiliation. Only thing is, who knows how to solve the problem? Or, if a solution exists, who has the political will power to put it into place? My guess is that raising taxes AND lowering spending will be the fastest way to reduce the national debt and get the ever devalueing dollar back on its feet again. It also appears that doing so may help keep a reign on inflation, interest rates and possibly even the price of oil (seems like each time the dollar is devalued, oil goes up much like gold goes up - but again, I'm no economist so I don't know how true that is much less understand how or why that happens).

So is raising taxes bad? I'm sure it's a bad recipe for the economy, possibly steering us into recession (or a much worse recession than normal) if we're not in one already. But I'm afraid it is probably inevitable anyway for the sake of rescuing us from our national debt. Let's not forget that Bush, Sr., a devout Republican, was forced to raise taxes after taking over the country's executive branch in the midst of the out of control spending and national debt that took place under the Reagan Administration (and a Democrat-party controlled Congress I might add). My guess is that raising taxes may have to occur sometime after the Fed and our nation's leaders feel like the country is no longer in a recession (as well as having the Fed raise short term rates to keep inflation under control).

Either way, rather than banter about how opposing political parties suck (despite certain differences, it seems like both parties are still very much alike), I'd welcome discussion from those on here with a good handle on economics, national debt pressures, etc., and what solutions are available to reduce our debt and get our country's economic standing back where it belongs - solidly on top of the rest of the world (how's that for nationalistic ego!).

[EQuin]

Here's another interesting discussion on the national debt spelled out in a more simplistic manner for laymen like me:

http://www.answers.com/topic/government-debt?cat=biz-fin

[EQuin]

And yet another interesting article on the national debt:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15064460/

I'm horrified to learn that as of 2005, 51.7% of our debt is owned by foreigners!

[EQuin]

Don't know if I agree with them, but here are two interesting articles that say, of all things, that taxes are actually good and cutting them can be bad:

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2006/0416taxes_rogers.aspx

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/1996/0623useconomics_gale.aspx

[EQuin]

Here's another interesting article about taxes written by, of all people, an economist at an Ivy League school (or at least I think Cornell is considered "Ivy League"):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/business/09view.html

[R_TAYLOR]

Its real simple, quit the spending, and the economy will more than take care of itself.

[Jeepspeedster]

All my Bush tax savings are used to pay my Exxon/Mobil gas bill.
I am so sick and tired of this B.S. gas prices. Same stuff has been pumped out earth for 100 years, now it's $3+ per gal. and I hear is how profitable Exxon and Mobil are.
I say it's enogh already. I want profit sharing with Exxon/Mobel and Bush (oil company).

[pjc]

All my Bush tax savings are used to pay my Exxon/Mobil gas bill.
I am so sick and tired of this B.S. gas prices. Same stuff has been pumped out earth for 100 years, now it's $3+ per gal. and I hear is how profitable Exxon and Mobil are.
I say it's enogh already. I want profit sharing with Exxon/Mobel and Bush (oil company).

I am not happy with energy prices either yet, I know enough to look past the bias of the MSM each and every time they regurgitate the liberal lines/lies.

The profit margins of the Big Oil companies take a distant back seat to many other companies. In 2004 as an example (not much has changed since then):

Exxon/Mobil made roughly $.09.8 profit on each $1 they took in.
Citigroup made $.15 per $1
Altria (Tobacco) made $.22 per $1

Where is the outcry against Citigroup, a leading liberal PAC manager?

[JGunn]

All my Bush tax savings are used to pay my Exxon/Mobil gas bill.
I am so sick and tired of this B.S. gas prices. Same stuff has been pumped out earth for 100 years, now it's $3+ per gal. and I hear is how profitable Exxon and Mobil are.
I say it's enogh already. I want profit sharing with Exxon/Mobel and Bush (oil company).
Lucky its not $8.00 a gal. like in Europe...:rolleyes: Oh yea, where there is socialized Med.! It needs to be paid some how...:cool:


.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Lucky its not $8.00 a gal. like in Europe...:rolleyes: Oh yea, where there is socialized Med.! It needs to be paid some how...:cool:


.

Not necessarily….
You draw conclusions that the high prices of gas in Europe are 100% attributable to socialized medicine.

May I remind you Venezuela has socialized medicine and the price of gas its only $0.12 USD/ gallon….

Not all the taxes go to socialized medicine…..BTW, have you ever used the health benefits in the UK? They are 1st class, trust me on that one….

[DaveGores]

I am not happy with energy prices either yet, I know enough to look past the bias of the MSM each and every time they regurgitate the liberal lines/lies.

The profit margins of the Big Oil companies take a distant back seat to many other companies. In 2004 as an example (not much has changed since then):

Exxon/Mobil made roughly $.09.8 profit on each $1 they took in.
Citigroup made $.15 per $1
Altria (Tobacco) made $.22 per $1

Where is the outcry against Citigroup, a leading liberal PAC manager?

You forgot to mention how much the government makes. $.18 for State and approx. $.184 for Federal.

[Tom_Willis]

Its real simple, quit the spending, and the economy will more than take care of itself.


And if welfare fraud and medicare fraud were eliminated that would free up a couple billion. Oh, and then deport the millions who aren't supposed to be here. (A couple billion more saved in California alone). And demolish the entire city of Berkeley, to be replaced by solar panels and cornfields. :)

[DEZERTBOUND]

And demolish the entire city of Berkeley, to be replaced by solar panels and cornfields. :)

No corn, lets give those hippies something they know how to grow. Put in a few "THC" plants so they forget to vote also.

http://www.hemp4fuel.com/challenge.html

[Ol' Curmudgeon]

Hemp IS probably better than corn for alcohol to burn. But I must admit I attended a small four year college founded and funded by hemp sales (during the Civil war): Park College in Missouri.

[JGunn]

Thats like saying Iran treats their citizens good because they sell gas for $0.25 a gal. Ven. produces oil, Europe does not... I spent time with a wealthy family in Denmark, they are taxed hard on these things.


Not necessarily….
You draw conclusions that the high prices of gas in Europe are 100% attributable to socialized medicine.

May I remind you Venezuela has socialized medicine and the price of gas its only $0.12 USD/ gallon….

Not all the taxes go to socialized medicine…..BTW, have you ever used the health benefits in the UK? They are 1st class, trust me on that one….

[Infidel Racing Team]

Thats like saying Iran treats their citizens good because they sell gas for $0.25 a gal. Ven. produces oil, Europe does not... I spent time with a wealthy family in Denmark, they are taxed hard on these things.

Great, what is their opinion of their social services?
I lived for 6 years between Germany and the UK, they all have the highest opinion of their health system.....as a matter of fact , if you ask any Brit they think it is unconceivable a UK without their socialized health care....

Maybe Klaus can clarify what do Europeans think of their socialized health care:p

[Shotdsherrif]

Iran and Venezuela are both good examples of countries where an abundance of oil combined with Marxist ideals still can't make up for sound fiscal policy. Gas may be $.12/gal but Chavez STILL had to "nationalize" a large producer in order to feed his people just a couple months back. And in Iran, the Ayatollah just recently publicly chastised Ahmad-whateverdf for spending too much time playing games with the US while his overly populist policies sent domestic money markets into turmoil.

You really have to be careful when putting highly socialized nations on a pedastal. There's ALWAYS a down side. Say what you will about America, but we always pay the piper.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Iran and Venezuela are both good examples of countries where an abundance of oil combined with Marxist ideals still can't make up for sound fiscal policy. Gas may be $.12/gal but Chavez STILL had to "nationalize" a large producer in order to feed his people just a couple months back. And in Iran, the Ayatollah just recently publicly chastised Ahmad-whateverdf for spending too much time playing games with the US while his overly populist policies sent domestic money markets into turmoil.

You really have to be careful when putting highly socialized nations on a pedastal. There's ALWAYS a down side. Say what you will about America, but we always pay the piper.

I agree, Venezuela & Iran are NOT good examples of public policy....I am quite familiar with Chavez policies and I despise them

I am thinking more like the UK’s or Swedish health care systems. I have 1st hand experience using the UK’s health care system…I was so pleasantly surprised that I thought it was worth taking a look at such a system.
.

[EQuin]

That tax foundation.org site that PJC referenced in his original post is pretty interesting:

Here's a good summary comparing McCain's, Clinton's and Obama's proposals on taxes:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/candidates08/compare/

One important thing to note that CNN Business highlighted is the whopping $4 trillion federal budget our country faces:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/22/news/economy/candidates_deficit/index.htm?postversion=2008022215

Sooner or later, federal spending will have to be cut and/or taxes raised to deal with our huge debt. Add to that the fact that the Federal Reserve may be forced to raise short term rates if inflation starts getting out of hand:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/21/news/economy/inflation/index.htm?postversion=2008022114

And that's just at the federal level. Let's not forget state and local taxes:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/20/news/companies/bondhitmain/index.htm?cnn=yes

I think it's going to be a rough road ahead for us the next few years no matter who's President....

[JGunn]

Thats a big 10-4, if everyone hedges for inflation they will be all right; I am...;)


I think it's going to be a rough road ahead for us the next few years no matter who's President....

[pjc]

Thats a big 10-4, if everyone hedges for inflation they will be all right; I am...;)


JGunn, I am curious to hear what steps you are taking.

BTW, does anyone remember the 21.5% prime interest rates under Jimmy Carter?

[EQuin]

JGunn, I am curious to hear what steps you are taking.

BTW, does anyone remember the 21.5% prime interest rates under Jimmy Carter?

Yep, I was a kid back then, but I remember the woeful days of stagflation, which we appear to be headed to again. According to the economic pundits on the news radio, they're hopeful it won't be any where near as bad as it was in the 70's and early 80's. Man, I sure hope not! But the price of oil, adjusted for inflation, appears to be close to the price of oil back then.

Alot of people credit Reagan for getting us out of that mess, but it was actually the Federal Reserve that made us swallow some painful pills to finally reign in inflation. Reagan's out of control spending (which was no where near as bad as this Administration's spending) helped spur the economy, though. Problem now is that we've already spent so much these past 6 to 7 years that we may not be able to afford to do the same.

[EQuin]

Oh, and I'm also curious to know what JGunn did to hedge against inflation. I need to do the same!

[JGunn]

Well, Silver is a good play in pure form; even at these prices. Its all time high is $50.00, 250% higher than now; not inflation adjusted either... SLW is a pure silver stock play! If a Dem makes it with there views silver will be at $100.00 in about 3 years or earlier... This is some of the good stuff to think about!


JGunn, I am curious to hear what steps you are taking.

BTW, does anyone remember the 21.5% prime interest rates under Jimmy Carter?
Silver at $50.00 and Gold at $850.00

Oh, and I'm also curious to know what JGunn did to hedge against inflation. I need to do the same!

[pjc]

10-4 on Silver and Gold. I have been on GLD solely for a few months now.

The threads are active this AM but, the Salt Mine beckons. Mondays are always tough. Catch you all this evening.

[Captain Racer]

A couple of things have come up in this post since the last time I checked it:

1. The price of gas. Realize this, we control the price of everything including gas. It's called supply and demand. They know you want it and they adjust the price to what they want it to be, nobody goes into business not to make money. If you want the price to go down, don't buy it and start car pooling, riding a bike, or maybe walking. I know it's easier to put the blame on someone else. Better yet, push for alternative energy sources, Brazil is a great example and if they can do it why can't the U.S.

2. This Administrations spending. I guess you are talking about the war. Your freedom isn't free or cheap. The American people need to get over this selfish BS of demanding things right now. Something things take time and by the way if you don't like the way things are you can always move to another country that you feel does it better, no one says you have to stay here. Please name a few because the last time I checked there aren't any, which is apparent because everyone wants to come here.

3. Taxes. If you want lower taxes, push your elected officals to do a way with welfare (if you haven't realized it yet, not only are you supporting your family, you are supporting someone elses that's to lazy to go out and get a job and would rather mooch off of you) and create a work fare (don't be fooled there's plenty of work available in this country, it's just that the American people think their to good to do that type of work and should start at the top). This will drastically reduce your taxes and make people have to work for their monthly check. Also, illegal immigration needs to be added into this. How much of your tax dollars go into paying for health care and other programs for them?

If you don't have a solution to the problem you are nothing more than part of the problem. Pushing the blame is not a solution.

The last thing I have to say is that I'm a proud American, that's my nationality. And if you can't say that without putting another nationality in front of it your a fake and need to find another place to call home.