Economy Poll

[FarrisMotorsports]

How many people feel that President Bush is responsible for our economic state and is to blame for it?

Just a Yes or No

The curiosity is killing me......

[DEZERTSUB]

That's a big NEGATIVE.
:mad:

Sick and tired of everyone blaming the President.....

[FarrisMotorsports]

Understandable....but w/out going into alot of detail, who is to blame then? Someone, or something is to blame correct?

[Prerunin554]

The dip in the economy (in my eyes) is because the US is in a war. Anytime there is a war, there is a recession. And tracing back to the man who decided that the US needed to go to war is in fact Pres. Bush. I will tell ya, I do like him more than the other options we had durring our last elections.

[FarrisMotorsports]

I will tell ya, I do like him more than the other options we had durring our last elections.

If he was on the ballot, would you vote for him again?

[HDRA1]

NAFTA clinton and eco-nazi's imo

[FarrisMotorsports]

NAFTA clinton and eco-nazi's imo


Pretty soon we're going to have to have air scrubbers on our barbecues....sorry off topic!

[Dan McMillin]

Its Tony T's fault....he ruins everything....

[Infidel Racing Team]

I think it was my fault......I keep buying cheap azz tools in HF :)

[dan200]

I don't blame Bush but he does have like a 20 percent approval rating right now.

[prerunner1499]

Bush does not have JACK CRAP to do with the economy. Presidential policy does not run the economy. Congress, Senate and the Federal Reserve have more to do with the economy that any president could ever influence.
Negative! ZIP NODDA NUTHIN!
The economic slump is caused by people living beyond their means, plain and simple. Refinancing their way into the american dream, with bigger better cars, houses, and the 100k prerunners. Then they can't afford these payments due to their adjustable rate that was such a good deal back when they first got is 2-3 years ago. I saw this coming in early 2005.

This all started right after the dot.bomb in 2000 when investors shifted from tech to real estate backed investing. This led insurance companies and other big investors who buy heavily in mortgage backed securities to shift as well. The mortgage industry responded by relaxing lending guidelines alot, too much infact. From 2003 to 2007 darn near anyone with a job could buy a home. Ya, Joe blow with a 15$ an hour job and 550 credit bought a home. First and second mortgage, 100% financing. Home values were rising, too fast,, but did anyone care, NOPE. We were all fat and happy. Then the first wave of adj rates hit in 2005, people just refi'd their way out of those. Then early 2007, in fall of 2007 the rest hit but the loan programs that were available to them were all gone now. Those people could not refi their way out of the debt that they had incurred over the last 3-5 years. That was also was when investors stopped buying "mortgage paper" on wall street and the bottom dropped out of the feeding trough we all know as the mortgage industry. THATS WHAT CAUSED THE ECONIMIC SLUMP!

Think about it, what lines of business relied on the mortgage industry and housing for a good portion of their profit making ability.
Drywall mfg, lumber mills, electrical supply houses, Lowes, Home Depot, heck even Wall Mart, the trucking industry. Every facet of mft and industry could be effected by this issue.

The combination is the US housing slump, and the global oil thirst. THATS what is causing the economy to go south.

Ya, the mortgage industry is to blame for about 1/3 of the economic problems. The remainder is all the fault of the senate and congress for lacking in enough wisdom and foresight to allow for more exlporation of our own natural rescources on US soil, an the fact that we now rely on +75% of foreign oil for our industry, and auto, trains, Trucks (semi's) are trucks not the "pickups that we drive", and airplanes. We hav'nt built a friggin oil refinery in 30+ years. Our thirst for oil, gas, deisel, nat gas, has gone up 10 fold since the 1970's. Guess what, our generation of such has stayed the same. Uhhh,, hello can we say supply issue, DUHHHHHHHH!

People think that the price of crude is all the fault of the big O'le bad US and their THIRST for oil. Well guess what peep's, the other countries like India, China, Russia, and other smaller but still developing countries have made a BIG dent in the global supply of crude. No one seems to ever think about the REAL problems that are on GLOBAL scale.

Do the research people, make up your own mind, make up your own decisions, don't be a lemming, that's what they want us to do. But what the hey,, it will all be over soon enough anyway. :-)

[Captain Racer]

Prerunner1499, well said and I agree 100%. People will point the finger at someone other than themselves because they don't have the nad sack to except responsiblity for their actions. I think the housing crunch and the price of oil is a good wake up call the people of the US.

[dmcmah0n]

I don't blame Bush but he does have like a 20 percent approval rating right now.

Off of Real Clear Politics

President Bush Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve30.8
Disapprove65.2
Spread -34.4

Congressional Job Approval
RCP Average
Approve18.7
Disapprove75.0
Spread -56.3


Bush has no real control. It's Congress and the Federal Reserve who have more clout.

[FarrisMotorsports]

The economic slump is caused by people living beyond their means, plain and simple. Refinancing their way into the american dream, with bigger better cars, houses, and the 100k prerunners. Then they can't afford these payments due to their adjustable rate that was such a good deal back when they first got is 2-3 years ago. I saw this coming in early 2005.

The mortgage industry responded by relaxing lending guidelines alot, too much infact. From 2003 to 2007 darn near anyone with a job could buy a home. Ya, Joe blow with a 15$ an hour job and 550 credit bought a home. First and second mortgage, 100% financing. Home values were rising, too fast,, but did anyone care, NOPE. We were all fat and happy. Then the first wave of adj rates hit in 2005, people just refi'd their way out of those. Then early 2007, in fall of 2007 the rest hit but the loan programs that were available to them were all gone now. Those people could not refi their way out of the debt that they had incurred over the last 3-5 years. That was also was when investors stopped buying "mortgage paper" on wall street and the bottom dropped out of the feeding trough we all know as the mortgage industry. THATS WHAT CAUSED THE ECONIMIC SLUMP!



I believe you made a good point here. But....do you think that the politicians had anything to do with these "special loans"? I believe they were using the statement that it was the "American Dream" to be able to own a home....

Also, didn't something like this happen after the Regan era? When alot of Savings & Loans went belly up......? Does anyone remember any of this?

[FarrisMotorsports]

Hopefully everyone doesn't think I'm a jack ** for starting this thread. I just have been reading alot of the threads on politics here, and it seems like most of it is non constructive.

Just would like to have friendly points made and some different constructive views in each direction. Maybe it'll open some members eyes...who knows. There is always 2 sides to every story. I believe people should keep an open mind with eyes open and ears open. And to not see only red,blue or green.

[#1PatDeanFan]

That's a big NEGATIVE.
:mad:

Sick and tired of everyone blaming the President.....

Amen Brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AZ1000]

This all started when A democratic congress was voted in to change things, and they sure as he11 did, wait till we get a dem president. :eek::eek:

[MALIBLOC]

I think it was all the people that did all those crappy loans.

[AzBajaman]

I think it was all the people that did all those crappy loans.


Or giving out loans for more than those houses were worth.......

[prerunner1499]

I believe you made a good point here. But....do you think that the politicians had anything to do with these "special loans"? I believe they were using the statement that it was the "American Dream" to be able to own a home....

Also, didn't something like this happen after the Regan era? When alot of Savings & Loans went belly up......? Does anyone remember any of this?

Not necesarily, politicians did put a little pressure on the FED to keep the interest rates low to keep the economy booming. But look what that caused. Refi booms and home equity was un-sustainable with all the equity cash outs. But the FED did create and expand the FHA and VA loans. The FHA loan amounts actually were something like $285K max but that has been recently increased a couple times, and VA is a low down loan program. Now the Fed has a newer FHA program out there the "save the homeowner's a$$es" More Govt bail out help. Who pays for that? All of the rest of us who were samrt enough not to get ourselves all f'd up in the first place.

The majority of loan programs are thought up by the boards of investors and the white collars at the high up levels in the individual mortgage companies. They are whom decide what programs to offer based in their investment capitol they have available. Basically, when "money was easy to get and lend" there were all kinds of 100, 105 and 120% loan programs out there that we3re based on a home's equity. Well then that equity gap got eaten up by owners re-financing over and over their egg just kept getting bigger and bigger. Then they finally could not refi anymore so they walk away, go BK and start over with crappy credit and renting from some a hole slumlord again.

Where do you think alot o these dudes got the $ for buying the new F 3 fiddy and toy haulers, and sand jockey pimped out sand limo's the last 5 years. Sure as heck was'nt wages for the most of them. It was all refi $ for alot of them. Hence the term "REFI RACERS". Look what happened to Class 1 and TT racers. The last 5-8 years TT and Class 1 has grown alot, other classes too. Not to say that most of they did it that way but a good chunk did. BUT teams like the Mcmillans, Sourapas, PAB, Postol, Post, McCachran, Kreger, and alot of others. Most of them, well, they earned it.

The SNL crisis of the late 80's was a result of non insured loans going bad after interest rates and inflation were not kept in check. And "Black Monday" of October 1987. This is when the Dow crashed so hard from the panic. The S&L's had to eat alot of mortgage paper and most just left the investors hanging our in the breeze. The investors who had all the $ in tech stocks in the 2000 dot bomb just switched the real estate because it was deemed a smarter, safer investment. So many followed suit and that was what kept us from having a recession in the 2000 post clinton era. NO credit given the that goon of course.

Now (more recently) loans were borrower portfilio based (borrower credit and income)instead of colateral based (home value), this is because home appreciation rates were gong up as a steady and almose staggering pace. I know this, as I'm an Appraiser. Unfortunatley, the borrowers need for "keeping up with the Jones", fraudulant (inflated value) appraisals and unscrupulous mortgate activity has put us where we are now. Alot of good things happened from the 80's S&L crisis.

[glamisrnr]

The dip in the economy (in my eyes) is because the US is in a war. Anytime there is a war, there is a recession. And tracing back to the man who decided that the US needed to go to war is in fact Pres. Bush.

I have also noticed this, war time means more resources are going to the war effort which means less are staying here and company's are taking advantage of that in our era/time we live in. I mean really its not like we don't have a surplus of everything that is going to the war effort. I think big businesses are capitalizing off of this, I also feel that it was the large boom in the housing market with giving loans to anyone without making sure that they could afford it, even when the interest rate jumps up to the moon and beyond. Live within your means. If you can't make the payments you don't need it, and if it's something you really want save up for it, you will appreciate it much more.

[pappawheely]

The dip in the economy (in my eyes) is because the US is in a war. Anytime there is a war, there is a recession. And tracing back to the man who decided that the US needed to go to war is in fact Pres. Bush. I will tell ya, I do like him more than the other options we had durring our last elections.


Bush was the only one who wanted war?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

[JGunn]

Pres. Bush might be the Commander in Chief of the Military, but he can't fire the Law makers in Congress!

[TreyP]

As to the OP, yes it is his fault. But that just goes with the job. Politics dictates that when bad things happens the POTUS is at fault. Bush has been a disappointment as a POTUS in several areas, his lack of attention in many areas, too many vacations, and his invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 are a few. The economy side I have to go with prerunner1499. Too many people spending outside their income level. As much as I hate government regulation there are somethings that really need to be regulated to keep the greedy aholes from taking advantage of the uninformed.

I have seen too many people that bought $500K homes that didn't even make $60k/yr, now they are losing those places because they can't afford the $4k+/month payments they have to do to keep them.

[TreyP]

Bush was the only one who wanted war?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Just goes to prove they are all idiots, and why the two party system is broke.

[glamisrnr]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/shr1193l.jpg

[pappawheely]

Just goes to prove they are all idiots, and why the two party system is broke.


More like the party all the time system and it's on our dime. :mad:

[Kartman]

Its Tony T's fault....he ruins everything....

Truer words were never spoken

[Vtr_Racing]

How many people feel that President Bush is responsible for our economic state and is to blame for it?

Just a Yes or No

The curiosity is killing me......
Nope!!

[Stimpy]

That's a big NEGATIVE.
:mad:

Sick and tired of everyone blaming the President.....

"Nough said"

[Bri-Man]

American GREED, VENGANCE and AL GORE are responsible for this. I just got out of the Navy after 10 years, so I've served some time.

GREED:
Ditto on prerunner1499 on all of the housing stuff. If you only make $3000 dollars a month and you were told that you could afford a $500,000 home, and you believed it.... then you got exactly what your dumb ***** deserved. If your that damn gullable and you can't see something wrong with that, then get out of the jean pool.

VENGANCE:
I think that Bush is a retard. True, he wasn't the root cause of it all, but he did have a lot of influence over the American People after 9/11 happened. We couldn't find the people responsible, but that didn't mean that we werent going to "punch the wall" on somebody. Iraq was inevidable, Bush just sped up the process a little bit. In my opinion to much. Now were stuck in a hole that were going to have to get out. Those people over there are to caught up in there 1000 year old Holy War, while we keep sending our economy's money over there.

AL GORE

I hate this guy. This guy didn't want to go away after loosing the election so he became the poster child for "Global Warming." This is something that I think has totally tanked our economy with his ignorance that he understands 4 billion years of this planets evolution (Natural Cycles). Ethanol...Stupid, Drove up the price on just about everything in the world and you get what like 1% better emissions and worse gas mileage? Al Gore used a bunch of exagerated computer genorated models to scare everybody. So the US started spending all of this money on Ethanol and it's costing us more. More Nuclear Plants is the answer...Just water emission.

hope I didn't get off of the topic to much here, but it's not just Bush's fault, It's pretty much everybodys fault. So live with'n your means and buy a hybrid, use the rig on the weekends.

[JrSyko]

How is Bush in no way responsible for any of this? Its amazing how out of touch some of the people on this board are. When are you all going to realize the man's not as amazing as you all think? One of his most loyal aids to date Scott McClellan finally comes out and admits what a stubborn and vindictive moron Bush is. His approval rating is in the 20's and over 80% of the country thinks we're headed in the wrong direction. How can none of what's going on be Bush's fault?

Some of you blame the gas prices on the the slumping economy, have you heard Bush put forth any ideas to help the problem other than open up areas for drilling? That won't help the short term so how about opening up the strategic reserves to increase supply and bring the price down. Isn't he a supply side economist? If we don't do something to get this country turned around we won't be around long enough to need those reserves!

Bush isn't the only one to blame though, those morons in Congress are equally as guilty. With all their pork barrel legislation being crammed through at the expense of the tax payers and their back room deals, they're only concerned with staying elected and not doing anything good for the country. Also are prerunner pointed out, the morgage companies and housing market are also the catalyst for this recession but its "our" own fault as if you were dumb enough to get yourself into one of those loans, then there really is no help for you. The sad part is you're going to drag the rest of the country down with you.

A bit of irony here (and potential foreshadowing perhaps) is that people correctly blame the people who over extended themselves and spent more than they make as part of why we're in this recession however no one seems to care that Bush does the same thing. He continually spends more money then the government has with no disregard for the future. What happens when countries like China stop buying up that debt he's creating? Then the country will be in the same position that many Americans currently are and then we're all screwed.

[XTEENA]

American GREED, VENGANCE and AL GORE are responsible for this. I just got out of the Navy after 10 years, so I've served some time.



AL GORE

I hate this guy. This guy didn't want to go away after loosing the election so he became the poster child for "Global Warming." This is something that I think has totally tanked our economy with his ignorance that he understands 4 billion years of this planets evolution (Natural Cycles). Ethanol...Stupid, Drove up the price on just about everything in the world and you get what like 1% better emissions and worse gas mileage? Al Gore used a bunch of exagerated computer genorated models to scare everybody. So the US started spending all of this money on Ethanol and it's costing us more. More Nuclear Plants is the answer...Just water emission.

hope I didn't get off of the topic to much here, but it's not just Bush's fault, It's pretty much everybodys fault. So live with'n your means and buy a hybrid, use the rig on the weekends.


Al Gore = MANBEARPIG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf69EEL3WBk

[Demp]

Al Gore = MANBEARPIG
YouTube - Man Bear Pig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf69EEL3WBk)

NICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pappawheely]

How is Bush in no way responsible for any of this? Its amazing how out of touch some of the people on this board are. When are you all going to realize the man's not as amazing as you all think? One of his most loyal aids to date Scott McClellan finally comes out and admits what a stubborn and vindictive moron Bush is. His approval rating is in the 20's and over 80% of the country thinks we're headed in the wrong direction. How can none of what's going on be Bush's fault?

Some of you blame the gas prices on the the slumping economy, have you heard Bush put forth any ideas to help the problem other than open up areas for drilling? That won't help the short term so how about opening up the strategic reserves to increase supply and bring the price down. Isn't he a supply side economist? If we don't do something to get this country turned around we won't be around long enough to need those reserves!

Bush isn't the only one to blame though, those morons in Congress are equally as guilty. With all their pork barrel legislation being crammed through at the expense of the tax payers and their back room deals, they're only concerned with staying elected and not doing anything good for the country. Also are prerunner pointed out, the morgage companies and housing market are also the catalyst for this recession but its "our" own fault as if you were dumb enough to get yourself into one of those loans, then there really is no help for you. The sad part is you're going to drag the rest of the country down with you.

A bit of irony here (and potential foreshadowing perhaps) is that people correctly blame the people who over extended themselves and spent more than they make as part of why we're in this recession however no one seems to care that Bush does the same thing. He continually spends more money then the government has with no disregard for the future. What happens when countries like China stop buying up that debt he's creating? Then the country will be in the same position that many Americans currently are and then we're all screwed.

Travis, Bush does deserve some blame but not all. Again you assume people who disagree with you must be "out of touch" (stupid?). Most of the polls you hear about are just push polls (from both sides) that are manipulated to get a pre-determined outcome. Scott McClellan is intitled to his opinion but it's just that an opinion. They made him say things that he found were untrue??? What turnip truck did he fall off of? His job was to shine turds. To use the strategic reserves would really put us out of oil, not a solution. The answer is to use our own oil. Why is it an ecological disaster to drill in the U.S. but not in Europe, the Middle East, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela... etc. etc. etc.? The environmental socialists are destroying this country. It's not about the environment it's about anti-capitalism and taking over the country.

I agree with you on the out of control government spending look at our own state, it's absurd!!!

Home sales are up now because prices have come down just like the they always do. Most of our problems stem from the media's constant drone of doom and disaster and the people who lap it up. It's never as bad as they make it out.

[Alex Paterson]

World War Two pulled America out of the great depression. I believe during war time the economy is stimulated due to the additional production of materials needed for the war, but I think in this current situation it is just a few BIG companies reaping the major benefits from being at war.

Bush has to shoulder some of the blame, he is the man in office and when ever you are the one in charge and the ish hits the fan its going to all roll back to you, whether you had anything directly to do with it or not. I agree with a lot of the statements made on here about our economy but I feel Bush is one of many things to blame. Look at it this way, if your favorite baseball team plays terrible you end up blaming the coach.

-Alex

[Bri-Man]

"The environmental socialists are destroying this country."

HERE HERE!!!! The dumb environmentalist are such hippocrates. They want all of this alternative energy and save the rainforest. But try to build a windmill that interfears with their view and they will shoot it down faster then anybody. These people are snobs that care more about the white spotted owl then there own childeren. The environmentalist are one of the largest reason this country is in a recession. But they are all fat dumb and happy because there the upperclass.

Favorite environmentalist saying is from Armageddon when the eviro-pigs are protesting "You know how much deisel that tug kluncks out an hour?".

Keeping the trails clean, pick up after yourself and if you see some trash out there then just pick it up.

[Mark Newhan]

World War Two pulled America out of the great depression. I believe during war time the economy is stimulated due to the additional production of materials needed for the war, but I think in this current situation it is just a few BIG companies reaping the major benefits from being at war.



-Alex

You took the words out of my mouth with reference to a war time economy. As for just a few companies making all of the money that is not true. Small business is seeing most of the money in one way or another. Even the "big" companies use small business to supply them. To many people see this evil looking, fire breathing apparition consuming all of the nations resources and wealth, the fact is that it is you, me and your fellow Americans that are. We are programed from birth to believe in the existance of a being that is to blame for everything. It is just easier to blame the big guy (example: Robin Hood) and in our current period in history the big guy is the government and the are doing a pretty bad job for we the people and congress is an example of life imitating art.

Papa, You also make good points.

Travis, I think that we all agree on some of your points. This, to me, is good for the country. We can't offer knee jerk reactions to real problems.

Al Gore is the worst kind of capitalist. He creates an industry to trade "carbon credits" as the answer to a global warming crisis that has yet to be proven. My brother sent me two articles last week where scientists are convinced that there is creditable evidence that there is a cooling trend that will lead us into the the next ice age. Incidentially, John Edwards and some doctors created a theory and bilked millions of dollars out of doctors malpractice insurance that has since been discredited, but he has not issued any reimbursement to the insurance providers, another Douche Bag!

It is all hysterical, drama, and that is what Americans respond to. Everyone calm down... save some money when the economy is thriving. What happened to the lessons of our fathers and grand fathers... put some away for a rainy day!

[randy s]

Just goes to prove they are all idiots, and why the two party system is broke.

bingo. but w led all the cheers to go to war. i voted yes but i sort of take it back. like rdc hero hillary clinton says "it takes a village". this is a sick system we have. i, for one , would like to see what that little weasel scotty mcclelland has to say in his new book. i heard it does'nt speak to well of the administration. but i thought he was a liar then and some things never change so who knows.

[Sheaco]

Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse? Maybe it just the way of the World.

[XTEENA]

"I'm Super Serial HALF MAN HALF BEAR HALF PIG"

[Chris_Wilson]

Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse? Maybe it just the way of the World.

Why did you have to bring Pfluger's new Trophy Truck into this?

[Tom_Willis]

The media is so f&cking out of control that anybody with a microphone is assumed to be intelligent, informed, and honest. Ted Danson was on a talk show years ago and stated that 300 homeless die on the streets of Los Angeles every day. No one said "hey Ted, that works out to eight thousand a month. Where are they stacking them?" because how could the bartender at "Cheers" be wrong? When Al Gore says we're all gonna die by Christmas because we all use too much of everything no one says "hey Al, we've seen your biga$$ mansion in Appalachia. If YOU die we will ALL live longer". When fugly lesbian whackjob rosie o'donnell babbles everyday about whatever is rattling around in her little mind no one calls in and says "It's not out fault you are a bitter, man hating failure, you should seek professional help". There probably has never been a time in history when we have had so many of the wrong people in positions of power and influence.

[dan200]

The media is so f&cking out of control that anybody with a microphone is assumed to be intelligent, informed, and honest. Ted Danson was on a talk show years ago and stated that 300 homeless die on the streets of Los Angeles every day. No one said "hey Ted, that works out to eight thousand a month. Where are they stacking them?" because how could the bartender at "Cheers" be wrong? When Al Gore says we're all gonna die by Christmas because we all use too much of everything no one says "hey Al, we've seen your biga$$ mansion in Appalachia. If YOU die we will ALL live longer". When fugly lesbian whackjob rosie o'donnell babbles everyday about whatever is rattling around in her little mind no one calls in and says "It's not out fault you are a bitter, man hating failure, you should seek professional help". There probably has never been a time in history when we have had so many of the wrong people in positions of power and influence.

The irony here is this this is the information age, yet the powers that be (political and media) can lead the majority of us down the wrong roads if it suits their own agendas. Then our misinformed arses get capitalized on. This is why revolutions start.

[Dave_G]

Originally Posted by Sheaco [View Post]
Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse? Maybe it just the way of the World.


Why did you have to bring Pfluger's new Trophy Truck into this?

Now THAT was funny!

...Rep points coming your way ;)

[Laurie]

We hear so much about the ecomony being bad. I know our business' numbers are down but how many of us are still working? How many of us here have lost our jobs? Filed Bankruptcy? If we're working and not in foreclosure, we need to tighten our belts and get ourselves out of personal debit.

I put a lot (not all) blame on consumers. They want to be paid really high, but don't want to pay the next guy that same rate. They have so much debit on stupid stuff. I was raised that if you can't afford it you don't buy it. A credit card is for emgerencies, not living on. And when people have that kind of debit if (or should I say when) ups and downs in the economy happen it sinks ships.

[JrSyko]

Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse? Maybe it just the way of the World.

That's a very depressing thought. So is your attitude just "screw it" we're doomed anyway?

This used to be and in my opinion still is the GREATEST country in the history of the world. What made this country so great was the people however as I look around today I don't see a country of people who care about **** else other then themselves. The rest of us who do "care" are too busy fighting with each other over who is right and whose way is better that we lose all sense of what we started out to do. This attitude will ensure our doom. It starts with our political "leaders" and works its way down from there. Despite what most of the people on here think, I think BO brings back some of that hope and shows some of the charism that only comes around once in a while. If JM had some of that he would have shown it years ago and already brought about some positive change. Same goes for Hillary...that chick doesn't care about anything other than getting elected.

[hangten33]

No! For those of you that said Yes, Then Congress is just as much to blame then, right? Yeah thats what I thought you'd say!. What ever happened to Pelosi's cry of first 100 days! Thats right!! All I have to say to the Liberals blaming the right is Kiss My Ass!!:D:D

[HDRA1]

We hear so much about the ecomony being bad. I know our business' numbers are down but how many of us are still working? How many of us here have lost our jobs? Filed Bankruptcy? If we're working and not in foreclosure, we need to tighten our belts and get ourselves out of personal debit.

I put a lot (not all) blame on consumers. They want to be paid really high, but don't want to pay the next guy that same rate. They have so much debit on stupid stuff. I was raised that if you can't afford it you don't buy it. A credit card is for emgerencies, not living on. And when people have that kind of debit if (or should I say when) ups and downs in the economy happen it sinks ships.

well i am out looking for work due to the company i work for. claiming chapter 13 and not paying our health and welfare or our pension since last december. then bouncing 130 paychecks has not been a great few months let me tell ya ......... anyone need a glaizer that likes to go to off-road races

[JrSyko]

No! For those of you that said Yes, Then Congress is just as much to blame then, right? Yeah thats what I thought you'd say!. What ever happened to Pelosi's cry of first 100 days! Thats right!! All I have to say to the Liberals blaming the right is Kiss My Ass!!:D:D

Absolutely...they're both to blame. But once again fault is being divided along political terms and thats the problem and why nothing gets done or solved.

[scottm]

First of all, Prerunner1499 is dead on about the mortgage situation. But I am a lifelong Republican and I have no problem admitting that bush is partly to blame. We are in a perfect storm of problems right now that is only going to get worse, and some of it is because of iraq. Bush is not responsible for the mortgage crisis, except for maybe not mentioning the brewing problems a couple years ago and trying harder to head off the problems. But Iraq is a factor in several ways, including current oil prices. Invading Iraq was a huge mistake, and everyone told GW bush not to do it, including daddy GHW Bush. GHWB was a much better politician, and was great at building consensus, such as the first gulf war, so he knew a mistake when he saw this one. Of course Saddam had to go and the oil-for-food program was a scam, etc. But it was still a mistake to go in virtually alone. (Brittan and everyone else combined was only about 10% of the forces, and we are alone on the hook forever after now).

Besides the cost (added to the national debt, and financed with bonds bought by foriegners), the biggest fault of invading is that Saddam kept Iran in check. Now Iran is defacto ruling the shiite regions of Iraq, with eyes on the rest. Thats why Al-sadr wants us to leave - so the shiites, with help from Iran, can avenge 1000 years of anger on the sunnis and take over all of Iraq. Then all of the mideast is in danger, not to mention the oil reserves iran would control. They freely admit they want to rebuild the Persian empire. What will we do if B. Hussain Islama gets elected, pulls us out of Iraq, and Iran takes over? We will have to go right back in to protect S.A., Egypt, Jordan, etc. It will make Iraq of today look like a Boyscout Jamboree.

Invading Iraq made the mideast more unstable, and that is a factor in oil prices, which is a factor in the current economics. Crude oil price is set by buyers and sellers on the commodities market, not Exxon and Haliburton as libs want you to think. Traders all over the world bid on commodities, including oil, and the price is established purely by supply and demand. Its the original Ebay. So buyers bid up the price of oil on the futures market, based on predicted value. Unrest in opec countries from Venesuela to iraq to nigeria reduces supply and makes buyers nervous, so they bid futures up, basically betting that the value will grow. If demand for oil ended today, the actual future value of oil will be less, and buyers will lose on the gamble. But futures traders know what they are doing. My dad is a stock broker, and he advised me never to play with commodities. He said, "You usually have to bet against them to make money, but they know stuff you can't imagine about the supply and demand of everything." Trading Places was based on the commodities market and the value of commodities intel.

Another factor in the price of oil and the tightening credit market is the declining value of the US Dollar. The dollar is a commodity too, and is traded just like soybeans and oil. The value of something declines when the supply exceeds demand, right? Right. The world is simply drowning in dollars right now. That is due to several factors: Our trade deficit, which is boatloads of money leaving the US in exchange for oil, cars, and everything sold in Walmart. Then our Asian freinds like China get another boatload of money, in the form of interest payments on the $6 TRILLION national debt, which is financed by selling treasury bonds to anyone who wants them, which happens to be mostly the chinese.

Its a vicious cycle of our own making, but one that will never end as long as one politician in the group continues to say "dont worry about the debt, or problems with social security; vote for me and everything will be fine". For the record, that includes all of them in the last 20 years except Ross Peroit, and the former Dem governor of CO (cant recall his name), and the Republican congressional class of 1994. They were the first elected officials who made it a campaign promise (contract with america), and almost pulled off the BB amendment. Their sweeping elections in 94 and honest persuit of budget control led to Clinton's self-described "mid term corrections" and the balaced budgets of the late 90's that Bill Clinton at the time (and myoptic dems of today) shamelessly took credit for.

[CaptinCrash]

its the epa and blms fault

[pappawheely]

Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse?


RDC. LOL

[AZ1000]

Absolutely...they're both to blame. But once again fault is being divided along political terms and thats the problem and why nothing gets done or solved.

Amen Brother!!!!!!!

[JrSyko]

Scott McClellan is intitled to his opinion but it's just that an opinion. They made him say things that he found were untrue??? What turnip truck did he fall off of? His job was to shine turds.

That's not at all what's going. He's saying that everyone in the administration knew that the info they were putting forth in the lead up to war about Iraq was BS and that administration just kept on lying! The families of all those dead soldiers should be up in arms! You should all feel used! This is one of your own saying this, not some left wing wack job! And "opinion"? He was one of Bush's closest advisors, he was privy to all the information and knew exactly what was going on. This isn't time to play politics, this time to demand an investigation. Everyone was up in arms about Clinton getting a BS and they lying about it, one of Bush's closest advisors is stating that the President lied about going to WAR. Huge difference, the fact no on here cares just shows how politically blinded people are.


To use the strategic reserves would really put us out of oil, not a solution. The answer is to use our own oil.

An influx of oil from the strategic reserves would not put us out of oil. It would bring the price down in the short term but would not help solve the problem long term, neither would drilling for our own oil.

[pappawheely]

That's not at all what's going. He's saying that everyone in the administration knew that the info they were putting forth in the lead up to war about Iraq was BS and that administration just kept on lying! The families of all those dead soldiers should be up in arms! You should all feel used! This is one of your own saying this, not some left wing wack job! And "opinion"? He was one of Bush's closest advisors, he was privy to all the information and knew exactly what was going on. This isn't time to play politics, this time to demand an investigation. Everyone was up in arms about Clinton getting a BS and they lying about it, one of Bush's closest advisors is stating that the President lied about going to WAR. Huge difference, the fact no on here cares just shows how politically blinded people are.



An influx of oil from the strategic reserves would not put us out of oil. It would bring the price down in the short term but would not help solve the problem long term, neither would drilling for our own oil.

This was the guy they sent out to spin to the press. All he knew was what they told him to say. He was not an advisor, just a spokesman. You make it sound like Scott McClellan was really Dick Cheney, Condolezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld all rolled into one. Travis, are you wearing a tin foil helmet? You are the one who is blinded. The whole world thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction including most of the Clinton administration and the Democrats before Bush was even elected. Like it or not the U.S. was and is to this day operating under a United nations resolution. Not just because Bush says so. Bill Clinton commited perjury, you know the thing they tried to send scooter libby to prison for? It didn't have anything to do with where he put his member, he lied to a grand Jury. All the things you consider fact are just left wing propaganda.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

[HotRod82]

That's not at all what's going. He's saying that everyone in the administration knew that the info they were putting forth in the lead up to war about Iraq was BS and that administration just kept on lying! The families of all those dead soldiers should be up in arms! You should all feel used! This is one of your own saying this, not some left wing wack job! And "opinion"? He was one of Bush's closest advisors, he was privy to all the information and knew exactly what was going on. This isn't time to play politics, this time to demand an investigation. Everyone was up in arms about Clinton getting a BS and they lying about it, one of Bush's closest advisors is stating that the President lied about going to WAR. Huge difference, the fact no on here cares just shows how politically blinded people are.



An influx of oil from the strategic reserves would not put us out of oil. It would bring the price down in the short term but would not help solve the problem long term, neither would drilling for our own oil.

I dont understand the last part of this comment. Approximately 4 years ago Iran found an oil field which contains at least 50 years worth of oil. Earlier this year, Brazil announced it had found what is thought to be the second largest oil field in the world. It seems to me if we were to find an equal field ( which we may have already in North dakota check out http://www.energyandcapital.com/aqx_p/5150?gclid=COTG-5CIy5MCFSUqagodTEAYiA) our oil problems would be over. At the rate technology is expanding, in 50 years we will only need a fraction of the oil we use today. The oil is here, we just need to go get it...all the while pushing forward with the technology to (mostly) replace it. Sounds easy enough......

[pjc]

This was the guy they sent out to spin to the press. All he knew was what they told him to say. He was not an advisor, just a spokesman. You make it sound like Scott McClellan was really Dick Cheney, Condolezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld all rolled into one. Travis, are you wearing a tin foil helmet?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Well said! For a guy that has a such an extensive and degreed education that includes study in US Government you either have to question the quality of the instruction he received or simply claim blatant and abhorrent bias on his part.

Which one is it Travis?

And to make another sharp poke. this thread is about the economy, an economy that started downhill as soon as the 'Rats took control of the Senate and Congress in 06. Just think what they will do if they have a triad of political control!!

[pjc]

The oil is here, we just need to go get it...all the while pushing forward with the technology to (mostly) replace it. Sounds easy enough......

Indeed it is as it is in the oil sands of Canada. The problem is that the eco-extortion corporations that control the democrat party will fight all exploration and extraction as it deviates from their plans for world subjugation under the religion of Gaia. If the 'Rats obtain a triad of political power in 09, we will see no exploration and no new refineries built under their reign.

Ala Jimmy Carter, BHO has already said we can't continue to drive our SUV's, of course while he is chauffeured around in his.

[AZ1000]

we will see no exploration and no new refineries built under their reign.

This is why there is a mad rush of new endangered species all of a sudden. Can't have anyone drilling in Alaska now can we, it might hurt a critter. Too bad nothing lives where the oil is.

[JrSyko]

You guys are absolutely high and utterly ridiculous. Time will prove you all wrong, just wait. The facts are already starting to come out. Why you all continue to try and defend these people while they continue to kill US Soldiers in the BS, never ending war is beyond me. Its truly sad to see obviously intelligent people still buying into the crap the Bush administration is selling.

Another bit of irony here is that you all are quick to point out that even Clinton said Iraq had WMD's but don't refuse to believe that Clinton also warned Bush that Al Queda was trying to attack us. How convienent for you all.

[pappawheely]

You guys are absolutely high and utterly ridiculous. Time will prove you all wrong, just wait. The facts are already starting to come out. Why you all continue to try and defend these people while they continue to kill US Soldiers in the BS, never ending war is beyond me. Its truly sad to see obviously intelligent people still buying into the crap the Bush administration is selling.

Another bit of irony here is that you all are quick to point out that even Clinton said Iraq had WMD's but don't refuse to believe that Clinton also warned Bush that Al Queda was trying to attack us. How convienent for you all.


Travis, I am not defending anyone. I am neither a Bush supporter or Bush hater. The facts are there you just need to look at them without prejudice. I do know that if Bush was a Democrat 98% of all this second guessing, hindsight and conspiracy garbage would not exist. If Bush is so evil and is such a liar why didn't they just plant wmd's in Iraq. Why take all this heat about not finding any? You have total tunnel vision and it is clouding your thought process. Clinton warned Bush that Al Queda was trying to attack us? Al Queda did attack us several times in the 20 years leading up to Bush's term. Why does that matter. According to your left wing blogs it was Bush and the jews who planned the 911 attack right. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[dan200]

Frankly I am glad that a sort of tell all book is coming out about the white house. Is it going to be packed with lies, half trues and total fabrications...Probably.

However I would imagine that there are some honest stories to be included too.

I am sure many of us in our lives have come across behavior that we didn't agree with and never say anything out of fear of sinking our own ship.

My point is that when someone on the inside blows the whistle on corruption it sends a message that bad behavior within an organization (corporate or political) cannot just go unnoticed, unpunished, or in this case unpublished. I have not read the book yet (Is it even out?) but I think we would be idiots to think that our government always behaves ethically and doesn't load us up with BS. To assume that politicians are even half honest would be naive I think. We are living under a corrupt system lead by persons who put their own interests above the American peoples. Both parties are guilty of this. Regardless of who is in office it would be logical that they would want to sway the public opinion to support their causes, even if it is intentionally misleading and biased.

The authors own coworkers are saying "Wow, I am shocked he said all this stuff about us and what we do behind closed doors. This does not even sound like the man I knew." BLAH BLAH BLAH. What it sounds like to me is that they are nervous that someone has turned traitor on them and now the cat may be out of the bag. It will be interesting to see how much of the book is able to be verified as fact.

I am assuming there are black helicopters hovering over the authors house as we speak.

[DaveGores]

Time will prove you all wrong, just wait. The facts are already starting to come out. Why you all continue to try and defend these people while they continue to kill US Soldiers in the BS, never ending war is beyond me. Its truly sad to see obviously intelligent people still buying into the crap the Bush administration is selling.

Quite the opposite is happening. The only people guilty of lying are those who have been slandering the president since we went to war. "I voted for the war before I voted against it."

Anyone who bothered to look into the matter would realize the entire intelligence community agreed that Saddam possessed stockpiles of WMD's. Hell, most of Saddam's top generals believed he had stockpiles.

And for the record, George Bush isn't killing Americans. Terrorists are. If you can't recognize that, you have no business questioning anyone's intelligence. Fortunately, we're killing many times more of them.

As much as many of you would like to blame our economic problems on President Bush, he's about as responsible for our economic situation as he is for the toxic case of gas I had from Pizza Barn's Taco Tuesday. Economies move in cycles. Typically for every 5 years of growth, we experience 1 year of contraction. According to the Fed, the economy will rebound as soon as early next year. You want to experience a real recession? Elect a Democrat to try and "fix" the problem with more regulation coupled with tax hikes and you'll get just that.

[pjc]

You guys are absolutely high and utterly ridiculous. Time will prove you all wrong, just wait.


Travis, you are acting like a petulant child. Furthermore -->what is verifiable<-- is your abhorrent bias. That's fine but, keep your rank arrogance in the can and have some respect for people that use and present facts that disagree with your simplistic rants.



Another bit of irony here is that you all are quick to point out that even Clinton said Iraq had WMD's but don't refuse to believe that Clinton also warned Bush that Al Queda was trying to attack us. How convienent for you all.

Travis, AQ "did attack us" under Slick and he resumed to molesting his interns instead of acting decisively.

[Bri-Man]

Why don't we just all agree that FOX NEWS...I'm sorry FOX OPINIONS is to blam for all of this.:D
I can't even watch the stupid news anymore without getting a biased opinion, what ever happened to just getting the news? Americans are pretty gullable and will believe anything that is on the news.
We need Ron Burgundy now more then ever!!!!

[Infidel Racing Team]

Anyone who bothered to look into the matter would realize the entire intelligence community agreed that Saddam possessed stockpiles of WMD's. Hell, most of Saddam's top generals believed he had stockpiles.

And for the record, George Bush isn't killing Americans. Terrorists are. If you can't recognize that, you have no business questioning anyone's intelligence. Fortunately, we're killing many times more of them.



"The term “war on terrorism” is a misnomer, resulting in distorted ideas of the main threat facing Americans today. Terrorism is only a means to an end; in this respect, a “war on terror” makes no more sense than a war on submarines."
– Francis Fukuyama

[JrSyko]

Travis, you are acting like a petulant child. Furthermore -->what is verifiable<-- is your abhorrent bias. That's fine but, keep your rank arrogance in the can and have some respect for people that use and present facts that disagree with your simplistic rants.

Pat you are the most arrogant and biased person on this board. Even when you're wrong you refuse to own up to it as evident in the grammatical error you made (and I pointed out) when trying to correct someone elses grammatical error. You never owned up to it but just posted a picture of someone flipping me off. And you say I'm acting like a "petulant child?" Nice. You just disguise your rank arrogance personal bias with your creative vernacular and stinging prose but you don't fool anyone so don't point fingers at me bud. I've owned up to being wrong before and agreed with you on more than one occassion, more than I can say for you.

The facts are in the book and as soon as it comes out you can bet your ass I'll be reading it. And I'll place a lot more credibility in what he has to say then some of the obscure "OP ED" pieces you post in an attempt to push for your own personal prejudices.


Travis, AQ "did attack us" under Slick and he resumed to molesting his interns instead of acting decisively.

"Molesting" and intern(s)"? Another attempt to slant the facts in your favor with your creative use of the vernacular. I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as "molesting" when you're the one receiving. If not, guess that probably makes you a molester too. I know it makes me one. And it was ONE intern, not plural. Don't try and change the facts.

And he did respond when attacked, he tried to take him out. He didn't lie and drag us into some stupid war with no end that'll do more damage than good.

Now because I do respect you and consider you a friend I'll refrain from reading this thread and posting any more before I say something I'll regret.

Cheers.

[Bri-Man]

I think that this thread is hitting nerves that it wasn't intended to hit. Can't we all just get along? Let's get back to off roading!!

[dan200]

I think that this thread is hitting nerves that it wasn't intended to hit. Can't we all just get along? Let's get back to off roading!!

Welcome to RDC Brian... These little arguments are the norm here. Usually nobody gets hurt. It is just an excited debate among members who in real life would/do actually get along. Welcome to our big dysfunctional family....:)

[DaveGores]

"The term “war on terrorism” is a misnomer, resulting in distorted ideas of the main threat facing Americans today. Terrorism is only a means to an end; in this respect, a “war on terror” makes no more sense than a war on submarines."
– Francis Fukuyama

Very enlightening. :rolleyes: Is the term war on terrorism too confrontational for you? Care to weigh in with any thoughts of your own?

[Let's go off roading]

no he is not responsible

[DaveGores]

The facts are in the book and as soon as it comes out you can bet your ass I'll be reading it. And I'll place a lot more credibility in what he has to say then some of the obscure "OP ED" pieces you post in an attempt to push for your own personal prejudices.

That's not too surprising coming from a person who already places quite a bit of credibility in nothing more than hearsay.



And he did respond when attacked, he tried to take him out. He didn't lie and drag us into some stupid war with no end that'll do more damage than good.


Again, more conveniently disguised charges against the President with nothing more than hearsay as a foundation. Apparently, George W. Bush manipulated the intelligence reports of the entire international intelligence community, and did so even before he was president!

[pappawheely]

I find it interesting that McClellan said today that he hoped the book would put an end to the partisanship in Washington. Is he that stupid? All he is doing is throwing gasoline on a fire. I don't think he is smart enough to even write this book and that's probably why they let him go. He is making statements about the Plame outing that don't even match what is already public knowledge. The source of the leak was Richard Armitage, not Libby or Cheney or Bush. McClellan is saying Cheney met with Libby to discuss the leak except McClellan was not in the meeting he just assumed that's what they were discussing. They were discussing something that never happened??? The prosecutor knew the source of the leak before the trial even started and still convicted Libby because he forgot if he had mustard or mayo on his sandwich three years prior ( the phoney perjury charge). It was a political hack job. McClellan is just perpetuating left wing lies. I guess the Iraqi's hung Saddam on accident. Bush fooled them too right?

[pjc]

Pat you are the most arrogant and biased person on this board. Even when you're wrong you refuse to own up to it as evident in the grammatical error you made (and I pointed out) when trying to correct someone elses grammatical error. You never owned up to it but just posted a picture of someone flipping me off.


I got lots of positive rep points for that one.



And you say I'm acting like a "petulant child?"


Nah, make that a "petulant metro-sexual".

Like I said, everyone can have an opinion especially if you back it up to make it believable. Like most commie-libs, you do not every see a need to do that.



I've owned up to being wrong before and agreed with you on more than one occassion, more than I can say for you.


Yup... That's because I use facts, logic and presentable media to back up my opinions and you do not.



The facts are in the book and as soon as it comes out you can bet your ass I'll be reading it. And I'll place a lot more credibility in what he has to say then some of the obscure "OP ED" pieces you post in an attempt to push for your own personal prejudices.


The only prejudice I have is to preserve my liberties.



And he did respond when attacked, he tried to take him out. He didn't lie and drag us into some stupid war with no end that'll do more damage than good.


Travis, Sadam told his own Generals that he had WMD's and one of them leaked it. That was enough to convince a good portion of the leaders around the world. Did you not visit the link PW posted?



Now because I do respect you and consider you a friend I'll refrain from reading this thread and posting any more before I say something I'll regret.

Cheers.

10-4 and you are still a misguided, commie-lib and almost overdue for that change of political mindset we have talked about in the past.

[Dan McMillin]

JrSyko vs. pjc

YouTube - **Debate!** (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OEflzeCGta4)

[pjc]

With Travis sans hair, I see a strong resemblance.

:-)

[dezertdoug]

NAFTA clinton and eco-nazi's imo
Hit it on the head!

[Infidel Racing Team]

Very enlightening. :rolleyes: Is the term war on terrorism too confrontational for you? Care to weigh in with any thoughts of your own?

I do have many thoughts of my own.....(Admittedly Most of them are my male every 8 second sex thought:D).but as I you read this WORD, you already made up your mind to disagree with whatever I would theoretically write in this space:____________________________________________ __.

That is why I sometimes recur to quoting far smarter people than you and I.

I am sorry if you don't like it, but there is not much I could write that you would like because like I said before: You already made up your mind to disagree with anything I say.

Do you agree? (Irony Intended:D;))

[DaveGores]

I do have many thoughts of my own.....(Admittedly Most of them are my male every 8 second sex thought:D).but as I you read this WORD, you already made up your mind to disagree with whatever I would theoretically write in this space:____________________________________________ __.

That is why I sometimes recur to quoting far smarter people than you and I.

I am sorry if you don't like it, but there is not much I could write that you would like because like I said before: You already made up your mind to disagree with anything I say.

Do you agree? (Irony Intended:D;))

By successfully dancing around my question with your "fill in the blank" rhetoric, you've just made my point for me.

[therail]

Can anyone recall an Empire that didn't collapse? Maybe it just the way of the World.
No, there isn't one. Yes, it is. All good things must come to an end.

But I blame the collapse of this place on the following: Political correctness and the ignorance trend it has started, and eco hippies. The collaboration of the two seem to have drastically increased the cost to do anything reasonable, and that's not including the things we can't do at all anymore because it hurts the environment or makes someone look bad.

[R_TAYLOR]

There are 535 members of congress.I dont know what % of them are really looking out for whats best for this country but Im guessing about 10%.So that leaves the other 90% to send bloated budgets and lame programs we are forced to swallow.Until we the people send them all packing there will be no change in DC.The power held there is so entrenched that anyone trying to put the stops on all this BS is ignored and never promoted to any power committees because the person wont do the you scratch my back routine.Obama and Mcain will be no different.Lets start with pink slip for conress.