Tig welding .... single pass & multi pass

[motoxscott]

Here we can discuss the two methods of TIG welding.

[fishd00d]

gonna need lots of popcorn for this one!

[goofballracer]

I like double pass cause if the first pass isnt so pretty double pass will clean it up a bit

just my .02

[motoxscott]

I would personally like to hear Derek's thoughts on the matter.

- Scott @ Camburg

[goofballracer]

Dump?

[Chase 2]

Seriously, why do it at all?

I'm not buying your heat argument, mulit cold passes vs one good pass. Look at the pics of Dumps work, look at the size of the heat affected area, it ain't that big.

You mentioned the TIG process being developed for air craft industry, yes it was but, I'm pretty sure it was developed for aluminum. At the time what we now call TIG (then called Heli-arc due to the use of helium as shielding gas) was being developed, the industry standard method for joining 4130 airframe tubing was plain old simple gas welding! AND that was without PWHT (that's post weld heat treating for you non-welders), and you want to talk about heat affected area? You want to talk about aircraft safety? Sorry kids, it all sounds like some guy who drives a desk put a spin on it for marketing to me.

Many times this weave people are doing is much wider of a weld than needed. For 10 extra bonus points, would some one else please inform the general public what the Welding Industry Standards aspect ratio for the height and width of the fillet as compared to the base metal should typically be?

The multi pass weld has it's place in heavy, thick material where the material is beveled prior to the joint being welded. But people, you not dealing with those thicknesses in the off road industry. Your waisting your time and money with a technique used by slackards to cover cr@ppy work.

Oh and by the way the welding industry no longer calls it TIG, (just like they no longer call it Heli-arc) its now called GTAW thats Gas Tungsten Arc Welding.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Seriously, why do it at all?

I'm not buying your heat argument, mulit cold passes vs one good pass. Look at the pics of Dumps work, look at the size of the heat affected area, it ain't that big.

You mentioned the TIG process being developed for air craft industry, yes it was but, I'm pretty sure it was developed for aluminum. At the time what we now call TIG (then called Heli-arc due to the use of helium as shielding gas) was being developed, the industry standard method for joining 4130 airframe tubing was plain old simple gas welding! AND that was without PWHT (that's post weld heat treating for you non-welders), and you want to talk about heat affected area? You want to talk about aircraft safety? Sorry kids, it all sounds like some guy who drives a desk put a spin on it for marketing to me.

Many times this weave people are doing is much wider of a weld than needed. For 10 extra bonus points, would some one else please inform the general public what the Welding Industry Standards aspect ratio for the height and width of the fillet as compared to the base metal should typically be?

The multi pass weld has it's place in heavy, thick material where the material is beveled prior to the joint being welded. But people, you not dealing with those thicknesses in the off road industry. Your waisting your time and money with a technique used by slackards to cover cr@ppy work.

Oh and by the way the welding industry no longer calls it TIG, (just like they no longer call it Heli-arc) its now called GTAW thats Gas Tungsten Arc Welding.

This is where I think you don't get it. The first pass is a very hot little rod almost fusion weld connecting the ID wall of the tube. The second pass is for filler material and the third is to finish filling and making sure the puddle is not undercutting the material.

Now go look at the process for welding nuclear tube or welding tube for the oil industry. I think after you do this research you will change your mind.

The top welders in this industry weld Robby's stuff. They are both from the Nuclear world and there welds and technique and bar-none. Both use the weave pattern and it is not for the look.

[movindirt]

Seriously, why do it at all?

I'm not buying your heat argument, mulit cold passes vs one good pass. Look at the pics of Dumps work, look at the size of the heat affected area, it ain't that big.

You mentioned the TIG process being developed for air craft industry, yes it was but, I'm pretty sure it was developed for aluminum. At the time what we now call TIG (then called Heli-arc due to the use of helium as shielding gas) was being developed, the industry standard method for joining 4130 airframe tubing was plain old simple gas welding! AND that was without PWHT (that's post weld heat treating for you non-welders), and you want to talk about heat affected area? You want to talk about aircraft safety? Sorry kids, it all sounds like some guy who drives a desk put a spin on it for marketing to me.

Many times this weave people are doing is much wider of a weld than needed. For 10 extra bonus points, would some one else please inform the general public what the Welding Industry Standards aspect ratio for the height and width of the fillet as compared to the base metal should typically be?

The multi pass weld has it's place in heavy, thick material where the material is beveled prior to the joint being welded. But people, you not dealing with those thicknesses in the off road industry. Your waisting your time and money with a technique used by slackards to cover cr@ppy work.

Oh and by the way the welding industry no longer calls it TIG, (just like they no longer call it Heli-arc) its now called GTAW thats Gas Tungsten Arc Welding.

Did not the use of gas welding effectively do the job of PWHT? The greater the heat effected area the larger heat gradient. This does not leave a sharp change as would a small heat effected area and why PWHT should be done on welds of 4130 with small heat effected area. Correct?

[CRAIG_HALL]

I'm sure most industrial pipe work welding is over 1/4" thick(oil & nuclear industry) and requires multipass welding, not necessarily a weave...I'm sure when the're weldind thineer material it's not as common. of course if we used a 1/4" tungsten and equal size rod you may be able to do a single pass.

[partybarge_pilot]

Now go look at the process for welding nuclear tube or welding tube for the oil industry. I think after you do this research you will change your mind.

All the stainless tube I have welded in fuel farms has been single pass.


The top welders in this industry weld Robby's stuff. They are both from the Nuclear world and there welds and technique and bar-none. Both use the weave pattern and it is not for the look.

Since I'm going for My weld test at San Onofrie tomorrow, I'll let you know. From what I hear, the fab shop is full of old race car builders.

I personally don't really have a preference as done properly both will work. The weave just takes longer and only happens if someone is paying for it.

[Chase 2]

I totally get it, I've done plenty of multi pass welds on stainless steel pipe up to 6" in diameter.

So you are telling me that your welder (I'm now assuming that Jerry is not a welder by trade) first comes through with a pass purposefully not adding a "typical" amount of rod, in an attempt to gain additional penetration? You realized that any welder worth his certs should be able to gain the same penetration (if not better) using more rod don't you?

Jerry, have you ever herd of pushing a puddle by developing something that is called a key hole? Or perhaps you should ask your welder if he learned the technique in school. It's where you obtain 100% penetration, commonly done on aluminum and stainless steel. Basically you get the puddle so hot the back side of the puddle blows out, leaving a "key hole shaped hole in the joint, and then you add rod to the back side of the puddle behind or to the side of the tungsten. When properly done you can't tell which side of the weld is top or bottom as you have developed an equal sized fillet on both sides of the base metal.

So why is your welder not using more rod on the root pass? Really, I'd love to hear the technical reason. I expect the reason is because he doesn't need too, because he knows he's going to revisit the weld two more times before he's done.

So after the "root" pass your welder goes back over the initial weld adding a whole bunch of filler rod to build the fillet, he doesn't need to worry about penetration because his "almost fusion weld" has done that, right?

Now, after adding a bunch of rod on his previous pass, your welder then makes his third pass smoothing out all of the underlaying welds blending it all in with the edges so none of the evil undercut remains.

To me, even if we were all were to buy in to what you think is so correct, a competent welder should be able to do this in two passes. Simply "burn a root" and then wash over it to clean it up, both passes would simply be using a bit more rod than your technique right? And it would be done in at least one third the time!!! I mean really, if what we know can be done in one pass, and what looks like (by your explanation) could be done in two passes, what's up with the third pass?

[Scott_F]

I'll HAZard a guess at 1.5:1. Some of the pretty weaves I have seen remind me of how they used to braze bicycle frames in the old days. I imagine with brazing you need all the surface area you can get.


Many times this weave people are doing is much wider of a weld than needed. For 10 extra bonus points, would some one else please inform the general public what the Welding Industry Standards aspect ratio for the height and width of the fillet as compared to the base metal should typically be?

[Chase 2]

Did not the use of gas welding effectively do the job of PWHT? The greater the heat effected area the larger heat gradient. This does not leave a sharp change as would a small heat effected area and why PWHT should be done on welds of 4130 with small heat effected area. Correct?

:D Bingo!! And it is the sharp edge that GTAW is know for and in many cases makes it the method of choice. But, if the heat affected area is that big a deal to these guys, why aren't they firing up a rose bud and doing some sort of a PWHT, it sure would be faster and offer a larger transition area than what they are selling.

[J.JOHNSON]

I think the cats got his tongue now.lol

[FISHMOUTH FABWORKS]

Most of the Tig welds I see these days lack any sort of crown.There are to many pedal pulsers and people with machines that shouldn't have one.I blame Tv shows for this.ANY ONE is a fabricator these days.

I don't understand the fuseing the tube part.We only fuse sheet metal thinner then .060.Your welder should be able to weld .120 wall tube in one pass. I use 1/8 tungsten and 3/32 rod around 150 amps. works just fine. If its that inportant then your welder should be making a root pass on the tube first. Just as Chase 2 said "the keyhole". would you then chamfer the tube and put a .030" gap in the joint? make the first pass and then go over with a wash? I still dont see a reason for a wash on .120 wall tube.

[BajaFand]

FYI it was asked in the other thread who did the weave welding on the picture of Robby's truck and it was Ron Stockwell. He also did Chet's truck and both the Hummer's as well as the Stock Full and Class 3 we used to race and Johnny Kaiser's stuff as well. I know he has done welding for way more guys than I just mentioned but I couldn't name them all. If I remember correctly when Ron did our cars he only did the second pass on everything. Scotty who was doing the fabrication work would do the root pass on the whole car (which was a very nice pass) then Ron would come in and do the second pass on everything.

[DUMP!]

FYI it was asked in the other thread who did the weave welding on the picture of Robby's truck and it was Ron Stockwell.

That's not 100% true. While Ron did do quite a bit of the second pass welding there were actually 4 or 5 people that also were capable and did contribute to the second pass welding on the RG cars you mentioned. The others would be Dave (Guido) Schell, Chris Smith, Donny Gerraro (who still works for RG) and myself.

Dump

[Jkrell]

That's not 100% true. While Ron did do quite a bit of the second pass welding there were actually 4 or 5 people that also were capable and did contribute to the second pass welding on the RG cars you mentioned. The others would be Dave (Guido) Schell, Chris Smith, Donny Gerraro (who still works for RG) and myself.

Dump

I'll take zero credit for the tig on that truck but I did lay down some fine example of the "Mig Weave" on that rig....Its the required technique when scabbing together 1/2 - 3/4" gapped body mounts 24 hours before the baja. Double and tripple passes required to build up material. I'll be happy to share the technique if anybody is interested...:D

[Samco Fab]

Somebody mentions "pedal pulsers" and hints that these people are evil scum wana be fab guys:D

I add a little throttle when I dip my filler rod, does this make me a hack discovery channel wanna be? I have actually only seen this once on tv, but I learned it on my own.

I always felt that the weld puddle could use more heat when you are adding filler, I still control my overall heat, and do not come anywhere near fully off the pedal. It may be looked at similarly as trigger welding with a mig welder, but the modulation of heat is not completly on and off, I dont look at them as anywhere near the same.

I also have never had any problems with cracks in welds in anything that I have built.


The way I see it, whatever method used can acheive a very strong good weld as long as there is the correct amount of penetration, the right width of weld, and enough filler is added.

From my perspective here are some TIG methods used by other very successful builders: Somebody please tell me if I have judged others welding wrong......


JIMCO, Geiser, Porter = mostly "pedal pulse" welding with some weave on the Geiser, and the "pulse weave" on some sections of the Porter. All nice welding!!

Robby's stuff= Multi Pass Weave= Bad ***** and duh....obviously strong

SPD, Mike Smith, Dump's new Herbst machines= standard, plain, nice, strong tig weld. The quality strength and success of these vehicles speak for themselves. The Herbst new trucks will be successful in due time.

[garagebuilder]

A lot of people in this thread have summed it up well, because most people in this thread actually fab and/or do it for a living and are not biased and stubborn because they are being mis directed by some company that fills their head with BS just to make a few extra bucks. Bottom line when it comes down to tig on thin wall space frames, get it hot, but not too hot to where you need to back purge the tube because it's trying to oxidize the back of the weld, and pound in the filler as much and as evenly as possible, to negate any chance of forming any stress risers.

My opinion on the whole weave deal is that one day someone decided to try it out and thought it was pretty, it caught on and became trendy and an awesome way to church up some crappy fab work, kinda like fake ****.

The argument on the third pass annealing the joint...so are you using some type of temp gauge/marking to make sure you reach a certain temperature during the weld? Thats a diaper full of BS right there, pulling off an annealing proccess by feel would be impractical, thats what a torch is for.

Multi pass is a common pipe and structural practice, you almost never see single pass in these fields, people confuse weave with multi pass, they are different. multi pass has its place in offroad, on thick materials, and has been mentioned already in this thread. Unless your cage work is 2"x.250" multi pass has no place on tube work. What about RG chassis? The welder's background is structural pipe from my understanding, why would you not expect multi pass welds from him, a much eaisier transition doing it the way he's done it for years rather than to conform to a small industries "standards". note that I am in no way shape or form taking away from Ron's talents and abilities as i have a high level of respect for him and his work.

Take it for what its worth, its the internet.

[FISHMOUTH FABWORKS]

Somebody mentions "pedal pulsers" and hints that these people are evil scum wana be fab guys:D

I add a little throttle when I dip my filler rod, does this make me a hack discovery channel wanna be? I have actually only seen this once on tv, but I learned it on my own.

I always felt that the weld puddle could use more heat when you are adding filler, I still control my overall heat, and do not come anywhere near fully off the pedal. It may be looked at similarly as trigger welding with a mig welder, but the modulation of heat is not completly on and off, I dont look at them as anywhere near the same.

I also have never had any problems with cracks in welds in anything that I have built.


The way I see it, whatever method used can acheive a very strong good weld as long as there is the correct amount of penetration, the right width of weld, and enough filler is added.

From my perspective here are some TIG methods used by other very successful builders: Somebody please tell me if I have judged others welding wrong......


JIMCO, Geiser, Porter = mostly "pedal pulse" welding with some weave on the Geiser, and the "pulse weave" on some sections of the Porter. All nice welding!!

Robby's stuff= Multi Pass Weave= Bad ***** and duh....obviously strong

SPD, Mike Smith, Dump's new Herbst machines= standard, plain, nice, strong tig weld. The quality strength and success of these vehicles speak for themselves. The Herbst new trucks will be successful in due time.

Ok,let me refrase. I dont see a reason to pulse the pedal while you weld. Letting off a little to keep from over heating is different. People who pulse weld to make it look "pretty" because they cannot do it the normal way, are the people im refering to.
A weld should be the same width and almost height as the base material. Thus weaveing on .250 and up is needed. Im sure it works for some people, just not the way I would do it. the way of thinking as I see it, is a bling factor of a weave.Its what the general public think is "badass". I know of guys who use stainless to weld chromo. just because they use it dosent make it right.

[Chase 2]

Pulsed GTAW and trigger MIG are so far apart you can't compare. I've done a far bit of pulsed GTAW on aluminum and I feel it helps my penetration in some applications. The main thing is that when you set the machine up for pulsing you have a choice of the high and low amp settings, the size of the puddle is slightly reduced on the low side of the pulse, but the main thing is that the puddle remains fluid all the time.

Really people, we all know that puddle control is a combination of power, rod feed, torch angle and other very small and variable things. That is where the art part of welding comes in, its your knowing what you need to do to control the puddle to make the type of weld you know the joint is supposed to have.

I see nothing wrong with purging the backside and going for full penetration. It would take a bit more time to set up.

Maybe the welders on this forum have blown the cover for the poor guys who are getting paid chump change by the hour in fab shops. But hey, if the boss wants you to go over each weld three times, who are they to argue? It all pays the same right?? And like said many times before the welding is the easy part.

[motoxscott]

But hey, if the boss wants you to go over each weld three times, who are they to argue?

I think it's quite funny how you keep making these types of statements .... We're not talking about mediocre welders here getting paid slave labor to cover up or give the appearance of a "bling bling" weld.

So what boss at Tubeworks is telling Jason (the owner) to weave weld his chassis's and all the rear ends he builds for a lot of the TT and CORR trucks out there? Should we inform him he is wasting his time, covering up bad welds and what he is doing is incorrect? ... come on be realistic here.

If the end result is a properly welded strong joint that doesnt fail than who's to say one is wrong or one is right? You can get to the same destination via different routes. If Dump prefers single pass, thats ok because he is a skilled welder & fabricator ... if Jason at Camburg prefers to multi-pass weld, thats ok too since he is also a very skilled welder & fabricator. Both welders will get the job done at the highest level.

I think the big problem lies with people and companies that do poor MIG and TIG welding, but since the average customer doesnt know what they are looking at, it's considered acceptable .... well it's not ... and I see those problems all the time.

- Scott

[CRAIG_HALL]

Tubeworks stuff has some spray arc welding in there as well...There's alot of different forms of mig welding as well. Having a couple of Robotic welders (mig & gtaw) it's cool to see differences a small setting can change things. especially with a gtaw and tungsten stick-out & grind angle.

[CMazzulla]

So many variables..... A good weld is a good weld. You would have to argue single pass vs. weave for a specific component and application not just in every situation. I have done both and watched parts live both ways.

[5racer]

i say the bigger the weld the better the weld use all the wall thickness not just the "coopeing" "sp" thickness im not a cert welder but have been in the repair welding buisness for a long time and have built a few race cars and those pretty multi pass welds are bling.i cant see why you would need a multi pass on any race car tube.never seen a ugly weld break.but iv seen bling welds pull apart.theres a 1000 ways to weld and everyone has there opinion but it boils down to what works for you and what has been working .

[Chase 2]

I think it's quite funny how you keep making these types of statements ....
- Scott

Yeah, it's welder humor, maybe that's why your not getting it.

[motoxscott]

Thank god I'm not a welder by your definition ... haha

[BajaFand]

Thanks for the correction Derek and I definately did not mean to discredit you or any of the other guys. Donny Guerrero is an awesome guy and super smart.

[Wild bill]

Many moons ago, I work for Conoco oil company in their material science R&D section. I contacted the senior welding engineer before I started my TT build. He recommended for 4130 .120 wall tubing to use 70s-6 3/32, single pass, 100 amp setting. No pulse, no preheat, no postheat. For .25 4130, 70s-6, double pass, 120 amp. Preheat to 350f, weld, post heat, then slow cool to room temp. As a joke, he recommended welding mig only on body mounts or things that could break and not disable the truck.

[Samco Fab]

I think Camburg needs to hire Fly to argue on the internet with Chase 2 about things for them so they can lay down some sweet weave welds:p:D

[Chase 2]

I think Camburg needs to hire Fly to argue on the internet with Chase 2 about things for them so they can lay down some sweet weave welds:p:D

Hey who's side are you on, anyway???:D:D:D

[Armistice]

This is where I think you don't get it. The first pass is a very hot little rod almost fusion weld connecting the ID wall of the tube. The second pass is for filler material and the third is to finish filling and making sure the puddle is not undercutting the material
(I've only read the first page)

Doing 3 passes on a one pass object means you're not adding enough rod. I've done some heavy SS stuff and it's all one pass work. I'm talking of a 100gal mixer and I had to single pass the legs. Lots of heat and feed the rod in like crazy... you just don't to the "tap tap tap" like you're taught in school when welding on 1/16" plate

Also, if you're fitup is perfect in the firstplace, doing weld on top of weld is only going to put unnecissary heat on the part. If you have the penetration, one pass is going to be fine

Again... to each their own

EDIT:
Read the rest of the thread. Now, when y'all are saying "weave" are we talking about the torch manipulation for joints say like Tees and Laps and Edges, or do you say "weave" when you mean something like a "cover pass"? Cover passes are a no-no, no matter where you go, no matter what industry(again, some don't care, but still not good to do)

That said. Single passes are fine on thin material. Multiple passes are fine on thick stuff. And weaves are fine for tee, lap, and edge, joints. End, lol

[Jerry Zaiden]

(I've only read the first page)

Doing 3 passes on a one pass object means you're not adding enough rod. I've done some heavy SS stuff and it's all one pass work. I'm talking of a 100gal mixer and I had to single pass the legs. Lots of heat and feed the rod in like crazy... you just don't to the "tap tap tap" like you're taught in school when welding on 1/16" plate

Also, if you're fitup is perfect in the firstplace, doing weld on top of weld is only going to put unnecissary heat on the part. If you have the penetration, one pass is going to be fine

Again... to each their own

EDIT:
Read the rest of the thread. Now, when y'all are saying "weave" are we talking about the torch manipulation for joints say like Tees and Laps and Edges, or do you say "weave" when you mean something like a "cover pass"? Cover passes are a no-no, no matter where you go, no matter what industry(again, some don't care, but still not good to do)

That said. Single passes are fine on thin material. Multiple passes are fine on thick stuff. And weaves are fine for tee, lap, and edge, joints. End, lol

We do not always do a 3 pass weld. On a .120 wall tube there is generally 2 passes. On .188 and .250 plate we will do what it takes with filler material. After Vegas to Reno I am going to try and get Jason to do an example with pictures maybe a video.

[Armistice]

Cool, I'm curious to see a vid. Maybe that'll clear up some things

[glamisrnr]

The few times I have used the GTAW process on some 1/8" wall mild steel square tube I have done single pass and no pedal pulse, this was done a barstool racer chassis so there is no suspension and I have not had any cracks anywhere in the chassis. I feel that the double pass could possibly add too much heat if not done correctly thus weakening the the base metal. That is just what I think if I am wrong Please correct me, as I am young 18 and want to learn the right way so that I am safe if I choose to build a race truck.

[husky450rider]

Maybe im off base with this but these are my thought.

I find the subject of multi-pass gtaw very interesting.

Fillet or butt weld,

1st pass –root, proper gap and bevel along with pre-heat. Filler build up enough for proper joining and penetration, ( key-hole) only obtained with proper gap and bevel.
This initial pass can be slightly ground for smoothness for second pass and show defect.

2nd pass- hot pass, completely covers root pass and as stated hotter than your root. Generally this pass is directly following the root pass, if not pre-heat.
This pass is not ground just brushed prior to subsequent passes

3rd pass- filler or cap (not weave or wash, stacking) depending on thickness of material.

4th pass if needed

Generally on thick material (fillet) you look to get a 45 deg angle from the build-up from the multi passes.

Post Heat- generally a good idea to prevent cracking if material is thick or ambient temp is low.

Key Hole- a slight opening ahead of the weld puddle.

Note: adding filler material at the puddle cools your puddle (heat control)

My thoughts are if multi passes are being used the first (root pass) is being done with smaller diameter tungsten and filler. The following passes are with a larger diameter tungsten and filler to open up the HAZ and for placement of more filler.

Gordons welders are using a pipe joining method which is an industry standard in product carrying lines. On smaller diameter tube/pipe the first pass will be gtaw followed by gtaw or mig (mig is faster and cheaper). The idea is more control of the root pass with gtaw for good penetration and no flaws. This method is followed by x-ray or dye pen depending what is being welded.

[mebuildit]

Now I'm not that great of a welder but I can tig and mig stuff that will hold. Since most of my experience comes from drag racing, I have looked at several top fuel and funny cars. From what I have seen none of them have a weave and are all single pass welds.
Now I know that we are not comparing apples to apples, but both are very extreme vehicles. I understand that both types of racing see huge amounts of loads and their fair share of crashes. The one thing that makes me wonder is if a dragster blows up and crashes at over 300+ mph and survives, wouldn't that be the same as a TT with a single pass too?

I"m just an outsider looking in, and had some questions about single pass vs. multi pass welds. I don't want to take sides of which one builds a better truck just curious on the resoning behind it all.

Just a little confused on either process. Thanks for this thread it has been very informative.

[tomahawkracefab]

mebuildit, from what i believe drag cars are thinner tube for weight advantage..a single pass can lay down enough material to be equal or more than the tube's strength, with this whole thread...one pass..two pass..whatever!...do you want productivity or aesthetics?...it takes a good welder's skills to weld different methods according to job requirement...i'm in a position where i earn a living form my welding skills with my own company...my work covers a customer base from marine & offroad to oem's like cat and kenworth..some want aesthetics and performance from welds..takes longer and costs more...some want a weld as per the description on supplied dwg's...and that's all they get. mebiuldit's spot on...this thread can be very informative for the 'layman' that may be learning to weld, there's a lot of valid points here that i acknowledge from my own skills and experience..ask questions!! time for more popcorn!!! no-one's put pics up??? who's game?

[Superfab]

TF and Fuel Funny cars are built with a combination of .058 - .095 wall tube. We single pass weld them with 3/32 rod and a nice slow pace to get a proper heat draw from the weld area. The heat draw should go out about 1/2"-5/8" from the weld joint to eliminate a brittle zone. Top fuel dragsters ues the front half of the chassis as a spring so the tubing goes through some extreme harmonics. When properly welded this will last a long time with out breakage. The same things apply to offroad cars. Proper cleaning , fit-up and even preheating on thick sections will give you welds that won't fail. Of course this means nothing without proper chassis design.

[BallisticFab]

Double pass with pre-heat is the ONLY thing that will hold the studs onto our housings that we manufacture.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Here are some pictures of Single pass vs. Weave. Also the side views of both.

From the views you can see the added filler material and why it would be way stronger not just as some internet experts would say "bling". Pictures are worth a thousand words...

[1450-ranger]

Put some #'s behind it and do the testing...

[Chase 2]

Here are some pictures of Single pass vs. Weave. Also the side views of both.

From the views you can see the added filler material and why it would be way stronger not just as some internet experts would say "bling". Pictures are worth a thousand words...

So let me get this straight, you had your guy out in the shop do "example welds" so you could take pics to prove to us that you personally can tell the strength of a weld from it's surface appearance?

Jerry I know you are convinced that what you have your guys do out in the shop is right, and good for you, you seem to want to do the right thing. But to those of us who actually have worked as welders in various different fields, you are not going to do anything but stir up arguments that you technically don't have the ability or experience to refute. More than one experienced welder (not internet non-welder experts) has posted explaining that if properly done, multi-pass weld joints have a place in fabrication. At the same time, those same people have explained that not only is it not needed, it is time consuming, and opens the door for less than skilled fabricators to cover up and wash over poor quality work. The filler material laid on top of the joint is not where the majority of the strength in the join is. The root pass and penetration is much more important than some pretty pattern or slightly higher build up.

By the way on that Tee fillet weld, which side did you do your guy do the multi-pass weld? Was it welded first or did he do the single pass first? You do know that the second side is much easier to build the fillet but harder to get penetration on right? If you want to cut welds to examine them, do your cut and then polish it. After polishing, brush the weld with acid to etch the weld yielding a plainly visible separation between the base material and the different passes.

[Jerry Zaiden]

So let me get this straight, you had your guy out in the shop do "example welds" so you could take pics to prove to us that you personally can tell the strength of a weld from it's surface appearance?

Jerry I know you are convinced that what you have your guys do out in the shop is right, and good for you, you seem to want to do the right thing. But to those of us who actually have worked as welders in various different fields, you are not going to do anything but stir up arguments that you technically don't have the ability or experience to refute. More than one experienced welder (not internet non-welder experts) has posted explaining that if properly done, multi-pass weld joints have a place in fabrication. At the same time, those same people have explained that not only is it not needed, it is time consuming, and opens the door for less than skilled fabricators to cover up and wash over poor quality work. The filler material laid on top of the joint is not where the majority of the strength in the join is. The root pass and penetration is much more important than some pretty pattern or slightly higher build up.

By the way on that Tee fillet weld, which side did you do your guy do the multi-pass weld? Was it welded first or did he do the single pass first? You do know that the second side is much easier to build the fillet but harder to get penetration on right? If you want to cut welds to examine them, do your cut and then polish it. After polishing, brush the weld with acid to etch the weld yielding a plainly visible separation between the base material and the different passes.

Those welds are from Ron Shouten who has welded for Alpha, Robby Gordon, etc... I would consider him one of the very best in the industry... He "KNOWS" the weave is the way to go. He works down at that little nuclear power plant in Orange County and yes he has his certs and yes this is a required process....

[Wild bill]

The Ph.D welding engineer that I worked under at CONOCO gave me a very easy to remember rule of thumb on the amount of filler to use on a weld. If you are welding two plates at a 90 degree, The correct amount of filler would be where you can place a 5 cent piece and the weld fills the radius of the nickel. Anything 1/4" thick and thicker will require two passes for proper penetration.

[1450-ranger]

Keep in mind the practices for pressure vessles and non-pressure vessle structures are different. Ron does some nice work no doubt.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Keep in mind the practices for pressure vessles and non-pressure vessle structures are different. Ron does some nice work no doubt.

So is a Trophy truck and a building... lol

[Chase 2]

Those welds are from Ron Shouten who has welded for Alpha, Robby Gordon, etc... I would consider him one of the very best in the industry... He "KNOWS" the weave is the way to go. He works down at that little nuclear power plant in Orange County and yes he has his certs and yes this is a required process....

Ok, but Jerry, I never questioned Ron Shouten's welding ability. Ron telling you what he "KNOWS" is hearsay. My instructor in welding school 45 years ago was the lead welder for American Airlines and used to tig weld turbine blades on jet engines BY HAND, so there, I'll match your hero with mine. I'm questioning you, your ability, and your specific knowledge on welding processes. I would love to see YOUR qualifications to speak on the matter.

You aren't listening to what I'm are trying tell you. You are stuck on this particular (what you call "weave" & what those in the welding industry call "walking the cup") style/process and for some reason you think its the snizzle due to it's look. Have your guys do it all you want man, but it is a total waste of time and any qualified welder worth his salt can produce a welded joint that is every bit as strong with one single pass in less than half the time.

Maybe you should give all of this weaving up, speed up your production process and pass the savings on to your customers? Or maybe those extra wide welds are needed to cover up poor coping & fitting? Gee, I just can't tell by looking can I?? You suppose there were big gaps in the joint and the welder just goobered in a "root pass & then came back and washed over it with a "weave" to make it look pretty? Again you just can't tell by looking at it can you? With a good solid single pass, the fit of the joint is obvious. As stated many times before a multi-pass weld has its place, I'm sorry to inform you that it just isn't every where.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Ok, but Jerry, I never questioned Ron Shouten's welding ability. Ron telling you what he "KNOWS" is hearsay. My instructor in welding school 45 years ago was the lead welder for American Airlines and used to tig weld turbine blades on jet engines BY HAND, so there, I'll match your hero with mine. I'm questioning you, your ability, and your specific knowledge on welding processes. I would love to see YOUR qualifications to speak on the matter.

You aren't listening to what I'm are trying tell you. You are stuck on this particular (what you call "weave" & what those in the welding industry call "walking the cup") style/process and for some reason you think its the snizzle due to it's look. Have your guys do it all you want man, but it is a total waste of time and any qualified welder worth his salt can produce a welded joint that is every bit as strong with one single pass in less than half the time.

Maybe you should give all of this weaving up, speed up your production process and pass the savings on to your customers? Or maybe those extra wide welds are needed to cover up poor coping & fitting? Gee, I just can't tell by looking can I?? You suppose there were big gaps in the joint and the welder just goobered in a "root pass & then came back and washed over it with a "weave" to make it look pretty? Again you just can't tell by looking at it can you? With a good solid single pass, the fit of the joint is obvious. As stated many times before a multi-pass weld has its place, I'm sorry to inform you that it just isn't every where.

This is where you come off like a JA(*&@(*&$....

I can care less about the look. I can care less what you call it. I do care about having a stronger joint and higher quality. This is what I have said the whole time. I don't care how long it takes. I am not trying to save time I am saving a life. I am not trying to cut cost in the welding/construction I am building a high quality off-road machine. You keep saying I am not qualified. You are right I am not qualified but then again I don't do the welding. That is not the point...
I am building an unlimited off-road Trophy Trick truck. Our guys can weld the single pass with zero issues. Jason is one of the best at it in this industry. He is not covering up a crappy weld. He is just making sure there is never going to be an issue with the weld.
Now look at the last picture on the right... There is a high quality single pass weld on the left side of the plate and then a weave weld to the right. Note the extra material, larger radius, smoother fillet. Now are you going to tell me it is not stronger?


http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=1225149336

[Chase 2]

This is where you come off like a JA(*&@(*&$....

I can care less about the look. I can care less what you call it. I do care about having a stronger joint and higher quality. This is what I have said the whole time. I don't care how long it takes. I am not trying to save time I am saving a life. I am not trying to cut cost in the welding/construction I am building a high quality off-road machine. You keep saying I am not qualified. You are right I am not qualified but then again I don't do the welding. That is not the point...
I am building an unlimited off-road Trophy Trick truck. Our guys can weld the single pass with zero issues. Jason is one of the best at it in this industry. He is not covering up a crappy weld. He is just making sure there is never going to be an issue with the weld.
Now look at the last picture on the right... There is a high quality single pass weld on the left side of the plate and then a weave weld to the right. Note the extra material, larger radius, smoother fillet. Now are you going to tell me it is not stronger?


http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=1225149336

Jerry, typically the base material will fail with either side before the weld does, therefore your multi-pass weld is no better than the single pass. And to get real technical, your welder failed to get 100% penetration on which ever side he welded first. The top plate should have been beveled to allow him to get that 100% penetration. Either side submitted as a test coupon would have failed! Come on man, your guys should know that!

Chill out Jerry I said that I believe you have the best intentions, and again I'm sure you really believe that cup walking is better. I have no doubt that the quality of your guys work is top notch, I've never said anything less, BUT I, as a welder, can't tell that just by looking at the surface of a washed over or cup walked weld. The fact that you guys do all of this cup walking/weaving causes those who know welding to ask "why are they doing this?", "there has to be a reason to go to that effort". The problem is Jerry you don't have a solid technical reason other that "look at this". There are engineered technical standards for weld height and width that have built in safeguards that insure the the base material will fail before the weld does. All of your "look at this weld" doesn't mean squat.

Exactly how does making that second pass make sure the weld is a good one? The root pass is actually more important than the cover or wash pass. Let me say it again because this is the part you seem to be missing the most: THE FIRST PASS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PASS. Go ask you welders where the strength is root or wash.

[partybarge_pilot]

Note the extra material, larger radius, smoother fillet. Now are you going to tell me it is not stronger?


http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=1225149336

Note the extra warping indicating the extra amount of built up stress in the work piece from all the extra heat and filler......

[Jerry Zaiden]

Note the extra warping indicating the extra amount of built up stress in the work piece from all the extra heat and filler......

This part was just welded.. There was no in the metal and we did not care about the warpage... This was done just to give an example. by the way both sides are warped...

[Dezertpilot]

As McClintock said lets get some real tests done. Can someone test these?

[tomahawkracefab]

You aren't listening to what I'm are trying tell you. You are stuck on this particular (what you call "weave" & what those in the welding industry call "walking the cup") style/process and for some reason you think its the snizzle due to it's look. Have your guys do it all you want man, but it is a total waste of time and any qualified welder worth his salt can produce a welded joint that is every bit as strong with one single pass in less than half the time.

I must be doin somethin wrong...i do single pass and "walk the cup"....my customers cream thier pants over the weave welds...they run off and tell thier mates, and i got a line of work out my front door....that, my friend , is marketing ....cheapest advertising i've ever done.....i'll even put pics up...something most in this thread haven't or can't do....

[truck poor]

I have a question related to tig but not exactly on the multi pass. I have been welding with mig for some years now and just getting into tig, prob only 10 hrs total. my question is... I have a friend that is teaching me and he works for a water bottling plant and uses tig to weld food gade stainless pipe, they mask off ends of the pipe and fill the pipe with argon and it (pulls the weld into the center to make sure it penetrates all the way thru. Is anything like this done in the off road world such as a cage?

[philofab]

What he is doing is required for Stainless, and not for mild steel.

[partybarge_pilot]

Back purging is handy when your building headers to help keep scale/oxidization from developing on the inside of the tube. Also why they use it on food grade instalations.

Not required for stainless......

[truck poor]

Thanks for for answering that for me guys,it sure is nice to be able to ask questions and get the knowledge of people with more expirence.

[FABRICATOR]

...something most in this thread haven't or can't do....

Like those who post almost everywhere, make cheap shots, and never ever show anything?

[cusico]

If you would like it tested let me know.

I would be glad to RI mag shear torsion tensile compression angular flexure MOR proccess on this piece.



I love the offroad industry, it makes me laugh giggle cry and throw things.


Its like eyeballing the speed of a comet, I LOVE IT!!!

[motoxscott]

Craig Williams ... I'm curious as to what your background is in regards to building/welding offroad components and chassis's. I can read your profile on here and see who you've helped out through the years, but it doesn't say at what level. This is by no way insulting you but since you are questioning everyones technical background and qualifications I'm curious as to yours. Most people on the internet and fresh to the sport don't really know most of the truly talented fabricators and welders out there, because they don't work at offroad shops, have their names printed in magazines, etc etc etc. and most times just lurk this forum and others. They aren't new to the industry, in school or fresh out of school, etc. These are the same people that Robby G, Riviera, Herbst, Pflueger, etc etc hire and bring to their own high-end projects.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, thats fine. When I hear from most of the TOP OFFROAD welders they prefer to multi-pass and/or weave weld a lot of critical joints, I would have faith in the fact that they do know what they are talking about because they have the experience and knowledge to back up their opinions when dealing with offroad components. Most of these guys weld 5-6 days a week working on offroad parts in between working on military, aerospace and nuclear components for a living. Clearly they have the skills to single pass so why do they prefer the other method? They aren't covering up poor welds. They aren't dealing with poorly fitted joints. Do they know something that an outside industrial welder doesn't as it relates to offroad parts .... YES.

You mentioned that your expert single pass welded turbine blades on. Well playing devils advocate are the blades only stressed in one direction or multi-directional? How often do they inspect for fatigue and cracks and to what extent, dye, xray,? What is the life expectancy of the part, short or long? What material are they made from and how rigid of a part are they? I'm by no means an expert of turbine technologies or construction, hence why I'm asking.

Then you look at an offroad chassis .... stress and fatigue is constant and multi-directional and very unpredictable. Most chassis's are checked for cracks visually only. Life span of most chassis's are VERY long. The Riviera and PCI/ex Herbst truck are still going many many years later. By design and the material being used 4130 chromoly, the chassis is a very rigid structure especially if it gets heat-treated.

See where I'm going with this?? We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples. Sure you can single pass weld a offroad chassis, but can you say that it is just as strong and will have less issues over the years of hard use and abuse compared to a chassis that has been multi-pass welded and offers joints smoother transitions which elevates stress risers, etc? Look how properly machined parts are ... same way.

Like I've said before I'm by no means an expert, but I do have a head on my shoulders and can think for myself. I also listen and ask questions to the real experts that have years of experience ..... not internet know-it-alls.

Our trucks WILL be welded by the best in this industry and others. We aren't dictating the weld type, the welder is. It just so happens we all think alike. Their multi-pass/weave welding is not a waste of time or money when offroad customers are pushing their vehicles and themselves to the limits. These chassis's aren't used for just one race but are a long-term investment and need to be just as strong from day 1 to day 3,650 without having re-constructive surgery after every event.

You are right their are many poor welds out there and being covered up, but that's not what we're talking about now are we. Sorry for the novel haha :)

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

[Chase 2]

It would be very difficult for me to explain the complexity of welding jet engine turbine blades, let alone what sort of stress they are put through, stiff, rotational torque, vibration, let alone the cyclic heat stress. And yes they are inspected on very regular schedules, magnaflux and x-ray. The spacing between the blades along with the curved airfoil shape that tapers off to a razor sharp edge are just a couple of things that makes the weld difficult to do. You'll need to look at a turbine for a jet engine before you can see the level of skill I'm talking about.

In my opinion, someone who is exposed to a wide range of environments has a better knowledge base to work from. My qualifications? Well I first started welding in high school 40 years ago and attended Southern California Regional Occupational Center in Torrance during my last year in high school. I've been certified in mild steel and stainless but only became certified when required. I've been employed as a welder in different industries from Todd Ship Yards to off-road cars, motorcycles. I've done aerospace work in job shops and I've done mufflers, headers & expansion chambers. So many different products From tractors to bicycles. So you can see my background in welding is very eclectic. In the last 15 years I've not worked as a welder for full time employment, I've followed my interest in geology and now make many times the money I could as a welder. However, my passion for welding was never lost, and when things get slow with environmental geology I'll help friends out in their job shops. Last year I felt that I was losing my touch because I just wasn't welding enough, so I enrolled over at the Simi Valley Adult School so I could go in in the evenings and weld for 4 or 5 hours several times a week. The top dog at Simi was retired from Rocketdyne and I was pretty cool to be able to pic his brain. He also brought me up to speed to current standards from my old school Heli-arc days. Nice to be able to go in an in a relaxed atmosphere challenge yourself to weld things you wouldn't normally do just to gain the skill. I spent all day yesterday and will spend the rest of the week doing fab work for a major offroad race team while my environmental work is slow.

Scott, when it becomes available to the public, go look at the new VW Trophy Truck. I started this same fire storm of a discussion in that shop and they decided to do tests on several different styles and techniques including single pass and multi-pass. The bottom line is that there are a few mulit-pass welds on a few components and those mostly are from stuff built outside the Arciero Miller Shop, everything else is single pass.

When the base material fails before the weld, having a larger weld doesn't help. Lets go back to that Tee fillet weld you guys are using as visual proof that bigger wider welds are stronger. Although sides of the Tee were welded (and most of the time that doesn't happen), however in your example, you can clearly see the penetration from each weld right? On you supposed higher quality multi-pass weld, you can see that the weld only penetrated 1/2 way through the base material, right? All of the additional passes on top doesn't mean squat if you don't have a quality root pass. A single pass weld with the top having a beveled edge allowing for 100% penetration would have been the proper way to make that joint. In your own example who ever made the weld was concentrating on some visual snizzle on the surface and failed by not concentrating on the important part of the weld. I rest my case.

[partybarge_pilot]

Like those who post almost everywhere, make cheap shots, and never ever show anything?


So how is that project coming?




http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/Smilies/peepwall.gif

[motoxscott]

That's an interesting background you have there Craig.

I'm listening to what you're saying and understand ... BUT lets throw out the window what I think, I'm not an expert. Please explain to me why most of the top professional welders that have aerospace, military, nuclear AND this is key ... OFFROAD experiance perfer to multi-pass/weave critical joints? You said for the last 15 years welding has been a hobby for you and you're getting back into it more. Well these gentlemen have been welding as an occupation for the last 15+ years on projects that hold the highest specifications and quailty control. If they felt a single pass weld was the better way to go, now why wouldnt they do that?

Please explain how a single pass weld is superior to a multi-pass/weave weld other than it takes less time.How is the weld structure stronger. We've already gone over the fact that they are not covering up a poor root weld or fitment issue or as you put it some visual snizzle and that it's not there just to build up the weld thickness either.

It's easy to sit here on the computer and pick apart other peoples work so lets see yours. I'm sure it's not classified.

it's hard to rest a case when nothing has been proven yet. Educate me please.

- Scott

[Chase 2]

No one is going to prove anything by posting pics of welds, you guys already tried that and failed. Camburg seems to want to make some kind of marketing deal out of this like the Aussi apparently has. Go for it.

[dezerts10]

what i dont get is why weld using this muitpass / weave / cup walking way if you know the weakest part of the welded structure is the tubing right next to this weld. multi pass or single pass the material will fail before the weld is what i have been reading. is this not correct?

Scott i can acid etch and see how much penetration and take a picture to post on the internet all for free if Jerry is up for it. we do this everyday at work

Gregg

[motoxscott]

No one is going to prove anything by posting pics of welds.

Thanks you just proved my point. You still haven't touched on the questions I asked you. Maybe you are the wrong person for the subject.


Camburg seems to want to make some kind of marketing deal out of this

We didnt develop the concept, it has been done for years by the most experienced welders. No need to market it, Robby G., Riviera, Herbst, Alpha, etc have already done it for us. We prefer this technique yet you feel the need to dis-credit it. To each their own right.


the weakest part of the welded structure is the tubing right next to this weld is.

Gregg since I know you've been thinking about machining a lot lately, think of it in terms of having a larger radius where two paths intersect. You're not adding material to strengthen the joint but to help dispurse the load and not have a focused stress riser area. Where do cracks propogate in, smooth radius's or sharper corners? It doesnt have to do with penetration it has more to do with attachment.

I do know our customers will thank us when they have a chassis that is very strong and built to the highest standards. They wont be chasing down stress fractures and needing a quarterly crack repair team at their shop years to come ..... but what do I know.


- Scott

[FABRICATOR]

So how is that project coming?




http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/Smilies/peepwall.gif


Funny how it would be just you to pop out of the woodwork on that. Must have been the part about "cheap shots", just like now. How about showing us your asperations or expertise some day?

******************************

This is a touchy thread. Oh, and I just like good welds. :)

[motoxscott]

This is a touchy thread. Oh, and I just like good welds. :)

See the good ones just dont do it for me .... it's all about the sexy welds! haha :D

[partybarge_pilot]

Funny how it would be just you to pop out of the woodwork on that. Must have been the part about "cheap shots", just like now. How about showing us your asperations or expertise some day?

It just seemed so appropriate I couldn't resist. Hey, if the shoe fits......

As for My aspirations and expertise, you need look no further than My avitar......


Gregg since I know you've been thinking about machining a lot lately, think of it in terms of having a larger radius where two paths intersect. You're not adding material to strengthen the joint but to help dispurse the load and not have a focused stress riser area. Where do cracks propogate in, smooth radius's or sharper corners? It doesnt have to do with penetration it has more to do with attachment.


Apples and oranges man..... The reason tubes crack next to the weld is the HAZ, not the size of the radius. You don't have a HAZ in machining unless your doing something really wrong.....

[motoxscott]

Apples and oranges man....

I know that, but the idea is similar.

[specialized]

how "walking the cup" was developed
The term "walking the cup" is the name given to the technique of "weave welding". This technique was developed in the pipe industry when welders needed to fully weld a pipe joint together using 5/32 diameter welding rod. some welders would tie
two rods together to fill the weld area up faster. by using this technique, welders would have less fatigue because they where able to rest there torch on the weld groove and by rocking back and forth,and they were able to have good penetration on their root pass and tie in the toes of the weld into the apparent metal to eliminate poor penetration needed for welds that were going to get x-rayed. Most Welding Procedure Specification do not state to "walk the cup" as a welding process. but most state that you can "weave" leaving a weld deposit up to 1/2 wide in most cases. This technique is very common in the piping industry both for the root pass as well as a cover pass.
schout.

[tomahawkracefab]

i bought a new welder today...this sucker i'll fill a 1" gap in a single pass!!!!...lol...

[Jerry Zaiden]

When the base material fails before the weld, having a larger weld doesn't help. Lets go back to that Tee fillet weld you guys are using as visual proof that bigger wider welds are stronger. Although sides of the Tee were welded (and most of the time that doesn't happen), however in your example, you can clearly see the penetration from each weld right? On you supposed higher quality multi-pass weld, you can see that the weld only penetrated 1/2 way through the base material, right? All of the additional passes on top doesn't mean squat if you don't have a quality root pass. A single pass weld with the top having a beveled edge allowing for 100% penetration would have been the proper way to make that joint. In your own example who ever made the weld was concentrating on some visual snizzle on the surface and failed by not concentrating on the important part of the weld. I rest my case.

Closed minded people will never get it or lean the proper way.... I hope your welds/joints don't fail and get some one killed....

[Wild bill]

Back in a previous life, I worked at CONOCO in the material science division. All day long my job was to break welds and test different materials. We would either fatigue the weld or yield the weld to the breaking point. 99% of the time the base material would break at the HAZ zone. Only time the weld would break is when the filler material tensile strength was less than the base material. For our applications with 4130 base and welding with 70s filler, the base material will break 1st.

[specialized]

i found this article in the AWS welding journal. about half way down refers to "if extra joint strength is reqired, a slightly larger fillet size or gusset can be employed". Please cut and paste the link below to read the article.


Filler Metal Choice
The main objective was to produce porosity- and crack-free weld deposits. The best filler material to use was a low-carbon alloy, AWS ER70S-2. This welding alloy has a very low carbon content, nominally 0.06, which can handle dilution into the relatively high (in terms of weld metal) 0.30 carbon in the 4130. The resulting diluted weld deposit has a tensile strength of approximately 590 to 620 MPa (85,000 to 90,000 lb/in.2) The actual strength will depend on the amount of dilution with the 4130, weld bead size, and material thickness. This is usually an under match for the 4130 tubing, which could have 760 to 800 MPa (100,000 to 115,000 lb/in.2) tensile strength, depending on how the material was processed. However, if extra joint strength is required, a slightly larger fillet size or gussets can be employed. In addition, this welding wire contains small amounts of aluminum, titanium, and zirconium. Although these elements were initially added to handle welding over mill scale, they also contribute to a less fluid weld pool. The benefit to the welder is easier out-of-position welding. Note: It is recommended all welding on 4130 be performed on ground surfaces free of oil or grease.

here is the link
http://www.aws.org/wj/apr03/AWfeature.html

schout.

[partybarge_pilot]

This is usually an under match for the 4130 tubing, which could have 760 to 800 MPa (100,000 to 115,000 lb/in.2) tensile strength, depending on how the material was processed.




4130 condition N Yield@60,200 ultimate@89,200

ER70S-2 seems like a pretty good match.

[FarrisMotorsports]

I know its a little off base for this thread, but have any of you used stainless rod when welding arms, housings, or spindles? What would give the parts a kind of yellowish and purple weld? Rather than the standard silver looking weld.

[rojodiablo]

I know its a little off base for this thread, but have any of you used stainless rod when welding arms, housings, or spindles? What would give the parts a kind of yellowish and purple weld? Rather than the standard silver looking weld.

The only SS you would want to use as a filler in relation to steels would be 309L. (It is not the recommended filler...) If you are welding and looking for a special color?? Please take up fiberglass work instead.;) Seriously. Too many people are hung up on colors, look of weld bead, and they do not concentrate on the things that matter most: Good prep work, fitup, proper heat, proper filler application, preheating and post welding heat application.

In general, a good looking weld is more likely to be a good weld, and it is surely a characteristic one should look at when trying to judge a welds' quality. But it is by no means the end of the road; only the beginning. Everyone has seen a great looking welded part fail miserably, and yet we all know of a few hack welds we made that have survived hell on earth without flinching.

One of the main reasons for multi-pass welding has not been talked about yet: The addition of filler in the welding process is obviously to build up the area being fused. But the other part is- when a parent metal is heated, it will change its' properties. Filler metals add those silicones, nickels, etc. that are burned off or molecularly modified due to the heat being applied. Multi-pass welding can be an excellent way to get the necessary surface area fused to give complete bond strength. Especially in situations where total 100% penetration is either impossible, or not desired for one of many reasons.

It is the same theory as your hand holding onto something: One finger hold is weak. 2 is more than twice as strong as one. An entire fist clutching something is maximum strength...but 5 fingers grabbing can give better grip than actual hold power. It is all in the application.

Personally? I like multi-pass, and I believe heavily in gussets for more surface area bond.

[Chase 2]

Back in a previous life, I worked at CONOCO in the material science division. All day long my job was to break welds and test different materials. We would either fatigue the weld or yield the weld to the breaking point. 99% of the time the base material would break at the HAZ zone. Only time the weld would break is when the filler material tensile strength was less than the base material. For our applications with 4130 base and welding with 70s filler, the base material will break 1st.

This is the bottom line isn't it? What do you say to this, Jerry? Or should I say what does your person with the knowledge say to this?

Jerry, if you are trying to say that anything less than multi-pass is dangerous, you are showing a very closed mind indeed. Be careful or whole marketing ploy to promote your technique of choice may end up showing something less than marketable.

No wait, it's Scott's turn now isn't it?

[Jerry Zaiden]

This is the bottom line isn't it? What do you say to this, Jerry? Or should I say what does your person with the knowledge say to this?

Jerry, if you are trying to say that anything less than multi-pass is dangerous, you are showing a very closed mind indeed. Be careful or whole marketing ploy to promote your technique of choice may end up showing something less than marketable.

No wait, it's Scott's turn now isn't it?

Here is my marketing ploy...

Higher quality
More strength
Safer

If that is a lie then so be it... haha you make me laugh.

Your whole argument is we are spending more time...Wasting our time etc... haha Kind of makes me laugh.

[Justin]

Closed minded people will never get it or lean the proper way.... I hope your welds/joints don't fail and get some one killed....

Thats a very bold statement considering there are quite a lot of championship winning and proven very safe trucks and buggys built by reputable shops all with single pass welded chassis.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Thats a very bold statement considering there are quite a lot of championship winning and proven very safe trucks and buggys built by reputable shops all with single pass welded chassis.

Call it what you want. But when someone is trying to discredit the use of a weave weld because it is in their eyes a waste of time. To me that is a problem. Now what if the driver of a truck he welds gets hurt because a single pass weld broke? Then should I say I told you so? I think it would be to late....

At Camburg we focus on 100% quality and in a Trophy Truck if we are going to TIG weld it then it must have the weave technique plane and simple. I have seen the very best of the best trucks and buggies with single pass TIG welds fail but I have yet to see a good weave weld fail. I have seen single pass TIG welds with cracks in them race after race but when they got weaved they never cracked again. To me this is testing. Real world a laboratory can't simulate.

[matt_helton]

mot really talking $heit.....just saying here but........ive been around a few race cars and ive seen plenty of parts crack that were weaved......and these parts were built/welded by an exceptional fabricator/welder.......once again, just throwing that out there for you.

[Jerry Zaiden]

mot really talking .....just saying here but........ive been around a few race cars and ive seen plenty of parts crack that were weaved......and these parts were built/welded by an exceptional fabricator/welder.......once again, just throwing that out there for you.

Lets see some samples of the welds. I have seen so called "Exceptional" Work crack as well but that does not mean it was done correctly.

I will post pictures of work done by "Reputable" shops that was redone correctly...

[FABRICATOR]

Another take on that is that no welding person, machine, or technique, can make up for poor chassis or component design. It's a balance like everything else.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Another take on that is that no welding person, machine, or technique, can make up for poor chassis or component design. It's a balance like everything else.

I agree.. My posts are based on a quality part with either a quality single pass vs. a quality single pass with a weave over it. My whole point is a weave is going to be higher quality and stronger. It is not a waste of time like chase keeps saying...

[Jerry Zaiden]

Here is a before and after on a class 8 truck single pass with a weave vs. a real weave done correctly... As you can see there is a huge difference when you are talking done or done correctly.

[Kbach66]

Here is a before and after on a class 8 truck single pass with a weave vs. a real weave done correctly... As you can see there is a huge difference when you are talking done or done correctly.

I'm sorry but whoever welded that in the first place should not be welding up cages or any other structural parts. That is horrible, I can only imagine how that weld would fair in a weld test or worse yet a crash.

[murphco]

thats just a bad weave to begin with loosely spaced piles of cold filler,but whatever this is never going to end.

[f1sleepy]

That is a pretty piss poor example when it is very obvious that that is a horrible weave.

All this arguing doesn't prove crap. Like many before me have posted, someone needs to submit "quality weave" examples and "quality" single pass examples for testing to PROVE which is better or more appropriate for off-road fabrication. Pictures and words alone don't mean poop!

James

[Jerry Zaiden]

That is a pretty piss poor example when it is very obvious that that is a horrible weave.

All this arguing doesn't prove crap. Like many before me have posted, someone needs to submit "quality weave" examples and "quality" single pass examples for testing to PROVE which is better or more appropriate for off-road fabrication. Pictures and words alone don't mean poop!

James

My point of showing this example is maybe Chase has not seen a high quality weave before. So I showed a picture of a poor weave with poor single pass redone in the next picture by a good welder. Now in his opinion it is a waste of time and it must be covering up a bad single pass if it is a quality weave. This is not the case in a proper weld with a weave. Now to be clear I have never said a single pass weld won't work I am saying the weave is just superior. In our opinion it is not worth spending the time to just single pass the chassis. In our opinion it must get weaved. Now I would never argue the single pass is a stronger joint than a weave because you get more filler, larger radius, etc...etc...

[Chase 2]

My point of showing this example is maybe Chase has not seen a high quality weave before. So I showed a picture of a poor weave with poor single pass redone in the next picture by a good welder. Now in his opinion it is a waste of time and it must be covering up a bad single pass if it is a quality weave. This is not the case in a proper weld with a weave. Now to be clear I have never said a single pass weld won't work I am saying the weave is just superior. In our opinion it is not worth spending the time to just single pass the chassis. In our opinion it must get weaved. Now I would never argue the single pass is a stronger joint than a weave because you get more filler, larger radius, etc...etc...

So how was the poor quality weld re-done?? Was it scarffed or ground out before welding the second pass "single pass"?? If not, then the second pass is not really much better at all than the first. Its all about the penetration Jerry, not about the amount of time spent building up fillet. Again, the second pass is ALWAYS minor to the root/first pass.

But if it must be TIG multi-pass and woven, why are all of your "production" products single pass MIG welded?? What's the deal? Do you have a second set of lesser standards for the people that can't pay the big bucks? Why haven't you developed a MIG weave technique? If more fillet is better, gezze man, you could build some big fillets with a MIG machine. Just trying to apply some of what you consider to be logical welding knowledge.....

[Jerry Zaiden]

So how was the poor quality weld re-done?? Was it scarffed or ground out before welding the second pass "single pass"?? If not, then the second pass is not really much better at all than the first. Its all about the penetration Jerry, not about the amount of time spent building up fillet. Again, the second pass is ALWAYS minor to the root/first pass.

I am not sure what was done when those bad welds were re-done. I am sure Ron will post on that subject.





But if it must be TIG multi-pass and woven, why are all of your "production" products single pass MIG welded?? What's the deal? Do you have a second set of lesser standards for the people that can't pay the big bucks? Why haven't you developed a MIG weave technique? If more fillet is better, gezze man, you could build some big fillets with a MIG machine. Just trying to apply some of what you consider to be logical welding knowledge.....

I prefer the MIG weld over the single pass TIG weld all day long. Back to the amount of filler, radius of weld etc... Also I very rarely see good MIG welds fail. As for the MIG technique the MIG pattern is a weave technique you don't move the arch back and forth you weave it. So I guess you get the best of both worlds....

[Scooterinvegas]

http://www.dumontduneriders.com/invision/style_emoticons/Default/beatdeadhorse.gif

[partybarge_pilot]

http://www.dumontduneriders.com/invision/style_emoticons/Default/beatdeadhorse.gif


More like http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/Smilies/Whip.gif

[husky450rider]

I think you can look at this post and see a few things. First off there is no "industry standard" for this line of work. Second, the offroad fabrication industry at this level has benefitted from welding and fabrication related to tube and pipe construction. Third people are giving there opinions related to welding and not giving there own backround in the field.

I can say that a properly done single pass tig weld on thin wall tube is no less weak than a multi pass.

I can also say that a multi pass tig weld on heavier wall tube and plate is much stronger than a lone single pass..root/stringer then hot/weave.

[fathead]

More like http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/Smilies/Whip.gif

Has anybody seen Fish's baseball?

[Dezertpilot]

I'm sorry but whoever welded that in the first place should not be welding up cages or any other structural parts. That is horrible, I can only imagine how that weld would fair in a weld test or worse yet a crash.

That first weld is HORRIBLE! Sit me down let me have a few pointers, some practice and I am almost certain that I can lay down a cleaner weld and I dont weld!

[philofab]

The weld itself doesn't matter that much as long as it's adequate. Proper welds don't fail... the base material does. I don't care how strong the weld is, the base metal on a comparison will fail in the same place.

[SteveinAZ]

Oh my...I think the horse has been dead a long time. As far as right, wrong or indifferent, if you really want to prove your position on the weld process, qualify the weld procedure, and then report back. We are an ASME pressure vessel shop holding a "U" certificate, you would need a "N" cert if doing the glow in the dark stuff. We have to qualify every procedure, and one of the variables is technique (weave, stringer, etc) - and it's not even an essiential variable (read "required"). For a weld procedure you have to write the procedure, weld coupons to the stated procedure, and then bend and break some samples to determine the soundness of the procedure, and then qualify the welder to the procedure. We have to do this for every process, every welder, and sometimes multiple coupons for thickness ranges. We don't have a lot of procedures in comparison to some shops, but we do have them for the basic stuff...tig from 20 amps to sub arc at 1,000 amps, all documented and qualified. To give you an idea about multipass welds and their strength, it takes us 7 passes to fill in a 3/4" thick double V groove, with 300 amps being the minimum and we usually don't run over 600 amps on passes 5-7. These welds are very ductile, and yes the parent metal is what fails when tugged into two pieces.

With all other factors equal, weld strength come from the weld throat thickness, so those cute, little, concave tig welds that look like caulking wiped in there just are not that strong...they just don't have the material there. We have to calculate weld size when welding, for example, pipe to pipe in a "T", it has to have a full penetration weld (open root) with tacks feathered to nothing, and then a throat thickness of 1.25*wall of the thinner of the two items, divide that by 0.7 and you end up with your leg length. Take 0.120 wall tube for example... 0.120"*1.25/0.7=0.214" leg length...not across the diagonal (which would be 0.303"). So any TT out there should have full penetration welds and about 5/16" across the weld on all of the main cage - as I recall in the Score rule book it says full penetration and to AWS codes, am I right about this???

Ok, with all that said, it really comes down to personal preference and skill of the welder, unless someone out there can give us documented evidence to the contrary.
Anyone want to put their money and coupons up for destructive testing?

Steve

[specialized]

Ok, with all that said, it really comes down to personal preference and skill of the welder, unless someone out there can give us documented evidence to the contrary.
Anyone want to put their money and coupons up for destructive testing?

Steve[/QUOTE]

I'm up for it. just tell me what you need and i can ship it to you so you can test it. It would be nice to see what the results would be. No money, just the information of the test would hopefully put everything to rest. Just a little back round on myself. my company also does pressure vessel welding, so i will try to see if there is a WPS that suits the test we are going to do. hopefully we have something close to it. Does your company have a web site???
schout

[Chase 2]

Oh my...I think the horse has been dead a long time. As far as right, wrong or indifferent, if you really want to prove your position on the weld process, qualify the weld procedure, and then report back. We are an ASME pressure vessel shop holding a "U" certificate, you would need a "N" cert if doing the glow in the dark stuff. We have to qualify every procedure, and one of the variables is technique (weave, stringer, etc) - and it's not even an essiential variable (read "required"). For a weld procedure you have to write the procedure, weld coupons to the stated procedure, and then bend and break some samples to determine the soundness of the procedure, and then qualify the welder to the procedure. We have to do this for every process, every welder, and sometimes multiple coupons for thickness ranges. We don't have a lot of procedures in comparison to some shops, but we do have them for the basic stuff...tig from 20 amps to sub arc at 1,000 amps, all documented and qualified. To give you an idea about multipass welds and their strength, it takes us 7 passes to fill in a 3/4" thick double V groove, with 300 amps being the minimum and we usually don't run over 600 amps on passes 5-7. These welds are very ductile, and yes the parent metal is what fails when tugged into two pieces.

With all other factors equal, weld strength come from the weld throat thickness, so those cute, little, concave tig welds that look like caulking wiped in there just are not that strong...they just don't have the material there. We have to calculate weld size when welding, for example, pipe to pipe in a "T", it has to have a full penetration weld (open root) with tacks feathered to nothing, and then a throat thickness of 1.25*wall of the thinner of the two items, divide that by 0.7 and you end up with your leg length. Take 0.120 wall tube for example... 0.120"*1.25/0.7=0.214" leg length...not across the diagonal (which would be 0.303"). So any TT out there should have full penetration welds and about 5/16" across the weld on all of the main cage - as I recall in the Score rule book it says full penetration and to AWS codes, am I right about this???

Ok, with all that said, it really comes down to personal preference and skill of the welder, unless someone out there can give us documented evidence to the contrary.
Anyone want to put their money and coupons up for destructive testing?

Steve

Finally, a true professional steps in.

[DUMP!]

Ok, with all that said, it really comes down to personal preference and skill of the welder, unless someone out there can give us documented evidence to the contrary.
Anyone want to put their money and coupons up for destructive testing?

Steve

I'm up for it. just tell me what you need and i can ship it to you so you can test it. It would be nice to see what the results would be. No money, just the information of the test would hopefully put everything to rest. Just a little back round on myself. my company also does pressure vessel welding, so i will try to see if there is a WPS that suits the test we are going to do. hopefully we have something close to it. Does your company have a web site???
schout

So, Ron, What are you going to send for a sample, a single pass or a multi pass weld?

Dump

[specialized]

So, Ron, What are you going to send for a sample, a single pass or a multi pass weld?

Dump

I will supply both weld samples single and a weave. If you want to do the single that fine, that way we can get a better perspective on comparing the two. Lets have Steve write up what he wants to test. I don't want this to be a competition on who's better, i just want to help educate everybody on where to apply this style "weave" on and the most important, how to do it correctly if they want to use it. Both you and i have seen it all, both good and bad weave welds. By the way DUMP. I miss you.:)
schout

[binderbound]

Very interesting thread guys. You can definately tell the guys who care from the internet tough guys.

Looking forward to seeing the destructive test pics. Hell, put the video on youtube:D

[glamisrnr]

anything to update us with?

[SteveinAZ]

Dump sent me a PM about doing the testing and has prompted this:

Sorry to not chime in again on the discussion...been out of town and got back to the shop with a ton to do. Here's the long winded version.

Anyway, I am not looking to do this (weld testing) as I really do not have the time or the correct fixturing for typical (heavier) tube sizes used on an offroad car (ie. 0.095-0.120 wall). My bend fixtures are designed for 1/4" and 3/8" thick coupons (the radius of the bend fixture is 2X material thickness-I have them made from 1.0" & 1.5" 1018), so I would have to have to build a new one, which I am really opposed to doing right now from a time standpoint. I would propose that if someone wishes to move forward on this that they can contact the test lab I use ($350 is what the lab charges PER SAMPLE for all of the sectioning, bending and tensile pulls required). If someone is willing to build fixturing for bending and do all of the sectioning, then the lab would only have to do the tensile pulls (@ $15 per pull each). What I really believe is that both methods are going to pass, so this may not prove anything.

I did think about this as I was driving across the desert the other day...since 4130 has all of its alloying elements which tends to react differently than plain 'ol low carbon steels with HAZ and chromium carbide formations and all that bs. Since we are always dealing with loadings that are dynamic, what might be the best, in addition to the weld tests above, would be to build a flexure test contraption. In a previous life we had field failures due to vibration and extreme pressure in the tubes, added with expansion and contraction due to heat. So in order to test a theory, we built a testing rig to flex the tube; for this application, I would probably want to make it with one additional axis of load.

I hope I can explain the fixture well enough here. Take two tubes, lets say 1-3/4 -0.095 or 0.120, cope and weld in a 90 degree tee. Attach the top of the tee to a large fixture plate firmly enough that the connection to the fixture is not a controlling element. The vertical leg of the tee is what we want to flex, lets say in the same direction as the axis of the top of the tee. Our secondary axis load would be to pull or push on the vertical tube, and pulling is a lot easier, so lets go with that. If we lay the tubes on the fixture flat, a large die spring can probably give us a pretty good tension load on the tube/weld.
Now, back to the flexing - an electric motor with a small eccentric on the end of the shaft and a couple of heims (maybe an old tie rod) will do the trick for flexing the vertical tube. Turn the motor on and let it run until the tube fails, checking periodically for fatigue cracks. Repeat with as many samples as required for some kind of analysis to the "right way" - you could have a whole bunch of different samples to test...single pass, weave, pre-heat, post weld anneal.

Sorry for the long post.

Steve

[flatiron]

i have only been gtaw welding frequently for about 2 years. I have been very happy with my results, and have done a bit of my own destructive testing with good results. I have until this point only done single pass as i felt it unneccessary to multipass /weave(i have only been doing .120" max.). As i feel you should never stop learning, i want to start welding some heavier material(up to .250") so I thought i should learn to multipass/weave. I made passes and am pretty happy with the results. I still want to have both my single and multipass welds professionally tested though.
My question is for the quys who multipass all welds. When you are welding up, say, a 5 tube joint/intersection, do you multipass each tube individually?, or are you single passing them all, then going back and multipassing all welds that are still visible?
it would make the most sense to do them individually, but in studying others work, it looks like they are multipassed as a group. Maybe its a stupid question, but something that hasnt been mentioned yet. thanks.

[2.3danger]

i have only been gtaw welding frequently for about 2 years. I have been very happy with my results, and have done a bit of my own destructive testing with good results. I have until this point only done single pass as i felt it unneccessary to multipass /weave(i have only been doing .120" max.). As i feel you should never stop learning, i want to start welding some heavier material(up to .250") so I thought i should learn to multipass/weave. I made passes and am pretty happy with the results. I still want to have both my single and multipass welds professionally tested though.
My question is for the quys who multipass all welds. When you are welding up, say, a 5 tube joint/intersection, do you multipass each tube individually?, or are you single passing them all, then going back and multipassing all welds that are still visible?
it would make the most sense to do them individually, but in studying others work, it looks like they are multipassed as a group. Maybe its a stupid question, but something that hasnt been mentioned yet. thanks.



Single pass on all, then do your second pass as to prevent movement of other tubes.

[jrtorres]

what if i knew someone that got a brand new desert dynamics car and paid someone to do a few weave passes over a few key areas? the single passes already looked really good but is he gaining anything by adding a weave pass over it?

[philofab]

Peace of mind.


what if i knew someone that got a brand new desert dynamics car and paid someone to do a few weave passes over a few key areas? the single passes already looked really good but is he gaining anything by adding a weave pass over it?

[FUMMER]

I know this has been beaten and I think it all boils down to heat control. If you can lay a solid root pass with excellent heat control and follow it up with a weave with heat control just as good I think your golden. I think a weave would be more likely to fail with a new welder whom does not have good heat control and creates a massive HAZ. The weld would not fail but the damaged parent material would. The HAZ is the key in my book. I have seen many moly arms etc. broken on the trail and none were broken on the weld, they fractured at the HAZ.

[wheezy]

Personally, I barley know the difference between **** and shinola when it comes to welding BUT I sure do love the way the double stitch tig welds look!

Bitchen is a good word to describe it. Brandon at Sinister Fab swears by this method, he learned from Porter and that's good enough for me.

[randy s]

don't the governing bodies have info when there are crashes? does'nt savage inspect cages and see what techniques were used? which techniques were stronger than the other in post crash inspections? in nascar, don't they go over the things pretty carefully. i'd be interested to know what the santioning race body likes to see. not necessarily what they will accept. then do it the way they prefer. in other words, for our teams purposes, which technique does bill savage like to see?

[1474Prerun]

all savage chassis are basic single pass, at least from what ive seen. very similar to DUMPs technique on the new Herbst trucks

[Triaged]

...in nascar, don't they go over the things pretty carefully. i'd be interested to know what the santioning race body likes to see...NASCAR uses mild steel tubing and many are MIG welded.

[amerikanmade]

Steve Sourapas truggy built by Porter
52979
52980

[FUMMER]

To be fair I will post my weld tomorrow. But what I see on the above weld are "dropplets". The raised "bumps" occur during a cold weld when the rod melts and "drops" onto the parent metal. I am sure the root is solid, but the cover is cooler. I dont want to knock anyone or say it is no good. Just an observation having laid similar "bumpy" welds. And like I said to be fair I will post mine which I welcome advise. I have even caused the "zit" thing on the bottom of the weld from dipping my tungsten.

[Brian Mapes]

I have to agree with you here that last pic is not a very good weave. It is too spaced out and there is some cold lap as well. The dimple at the end of the weld is a starting point for a crack. I will also post a pic tomorrow of my welds just so that I am not an "internet fabber"

[Brian Mapes]

Here are two of my welds a weave and a single pass. I prefer to only do a single pass to limit the haz but there are just sometimes when you need to do a weave to get a bigger bead.

[Brian Mapes]

another

[Jerry Zaiden]

Here you go...

[Chase 2]

Those examples shown are seriously close to being undercut, fillets should not be on the concave side of flat.

[ndvalium]

Those examples shown are seriously close to being undercut, fillets should not be on the concave side of flat.

Sorry just a brief side track.....Just learning some weld stuff, Can you explain what you mean?

[Jerry Zaiden]

Those examples shown are seriously close to being undercut, fillets should not be on the concave side of flat.

You are saying the picture I posted has undercut welds?

[saintsandman]

Sorry just a brief side track.....Just learning some weld stuff, Can you explain what you mean?

What a fillet weld should look like

http://www.weldingengineer.com/Fillet%20Weld%20Size%2002.GIF

[Chase 2]

You are saying the picture I posted has undercut welds?

Look at the the example posted above, the fillet should be convex not flat nor concave. So I guess what I'm saying is that you ought to stop posting about stuff you have no actual personal experience with because you keep shooting yourself in the foot. At least WIP is posting pics of welds that he personally made, not one of his employees.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Look at the the example posted above, the fillet should be convex not flat nor concave. So I guess what I'm saying is that you ought to stop posting about stuff you have no actual personal experience with because you keep shooting yourself in the foot. At least WIP is posting pics of welds that he personally made, not one of his employees.

Well lets see your work! You keep posting and I have seen nothing from you. So what you are saying... Is the example I posted, from probably the most experienced welder in our industry who has worked on the most accomplished TT's is a bad example?

Dude you are a joke!

[saintsandman]

Look at the the example posted above, the fillet should be convex not flat nor concave. So I guess what I'm saying is that you ought to stop posting about stuff you have no actual personal experience with because you keep shooting yourself in the foot. At least WIP is posting pics of welds that he personally made, not one of his employees.

In Jerry’s defense the weld is not under-cut only concave, which offers better stress distribution, but is more likely to crack. However if the weld is a multi-pass the first weld is the only one that needs to be convex. It should be noted that concave welds offer less penetration than convex welds. The example above is a typical single pass fillet weld.

[Wild bill]

Jerry's example is just fine. Those welds look like the proper heat was applied and the filler conture is perfect.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Chase 2 just does not get the weave and is closed minded because he got certified 30 years ago in TIG welding...lol..
The weave weld is a second process to a proper single pass weld. The first single pass weld is a perfect example. Then the weave goes over it adding more material to the weld.

And yes I will post pictures of a single pass weld... It will just take me a week because I am off to Hawaii in the am :D


Now Chase show pictures of what you have welded! Lets see your work!

[Chase 2]

Posting pics are for little emo girls on their myspace sites. Tell you what Jerry, I'll come by your shop and you and I will both weld identical coupons. We'll test them and the weak one gets to STFU for good. I don't want to hear what someone else does or says, or someone who works for does or says, YOU personally put up or shut up.

[matt_helton]

OH BAM!! haha, wow i love this stuff! teeheehee :)

[Jerry Zaiden]

Posting pics are for little emo girls on their myspace sites. Tell you what Jerry, I'll come by your shop and you and I will both weld identical coupons. We'll test them and the weak one gets to STFU for good. I don't want to hear what someone else does or says, or someone who works for does or says, YOU personally put up or shut up.

Any time... bring it!

I have been told by a few people who know you that you are just an old man who likes to just talk... lol...

By the way I am still waiting for pictures of your work.

What have you welded in this industry? Anything current? Please share?

I have been posting pictures of work done in my company. I don't need to be the so called welder to inform people. I do know what I am talking about and I can do the process my self. you on the other hand call out really good high quality welds and act like you can do better. Like I said please share! or STFU!!!!! lol.....

[Chase 2]

Any time... bring it!

I have been told by a few people who know you that you are just an old man who likes to just talk... lol...

By the way I am still waiting for pictures of your work.

What have you welded in this industry? Anything current? Please share?

I have been posting pictures of work done in my company. I don't need to be the so called welder to inform people. I do know what I am talking about and I can do the process my self. you on the other hand call out really good high quality welds and act like you can do better. Like I said please share! or STFU!!!!! lol.....

I once had a job running a training center for Schlumberger, an international oil field service company. Schlumberger invited three engineers from The Peoples Republic of China to attend our training sessions so they could better evaluate our products and services. I picked the three guys up at the airport and drove them to the company apartment where I would pick them up everyday and drive them to our office to attend my classes. This went on for a couple of weeks when suddenly one morning Mr. Zau said "Please, Mr Williams, I think that I would like to drive!" My answer was "O.K........have you driven before?" Mr. Zau's answer was "No, but my brother has!" So Jerry, do you happen to see any parallels between Mr. Zau and yourself?

While I may be an old guy who was has had several different welding certs in the past, and while I may not be currently employed in the industry as a welder (I prefer making a six figure income with my current job), my past experience more than qualifies me to make comments on pictures you post.

Jerry, you called me out personally to prove my welding skills, the least you can do is prove yours too. How can you possibly consider yourself to be an expert you can't personally perform the task or have never been properly educated/trained in the task. Do you have a diploma or a certificate of completion from a welding school? Hmmm... maybe your brother does? Oh wait, a guy who works for you does. Well that's just peachy, I'm not questioning his abilities, and I'm not saying I'm better than him either, if you think that I have please link to where I've said it.

It's too bad that you've totally missed the main point with the critiques of multi-pass welding and those basically are that you can't tell jack sheet about the quality of a weld from pictures. Root penetration is the most critical part of the weld and fillet development is secondary.

As far as what I've been told when asking about you... I don't think it would be appropriate to post such inflammatory comments. I mean really, you don't want me to start posting here what others say about you, do you? Too bad you are resorting to having to try to attack my character rather than debate welding techniques, so I'm guessing it means you've run out of talent in that department?

[Chase 2]

Oh and Jerry, your giving me positive rep points while calling me an idiot just shows everyone who the idiot is. Ja, Ja, Ja, Ja !!! Just can't seem to get it right can you? Here you are trying to brag on your company, yet

Never mind, I give up, your posts speak for themselves, I don't need to point this stuff out to others, it is obvious.

[matt_helton]

hey craig, you going to parker?

i hope so, cus its gonna be a good time! :)

[Chase 2]

hey craig, you going to parker?

i hope so, cus its gonna be a good time! :)


Yeah, I'll make an effort to look you up!

[Brian Mapes]

I would like to post one more picture just to clarify and clear up any misconceptions about my welds, sometimes me as well as other people make welds with a little undercut, most of the time it will not have ill affects but of course, if you can do away with it then do it. Obviously a lot of undercut is very bad but there are times when you might get a little bit on one edge, as long as it does not run the length of the bead then your probably good, wont pass a weld test though, but no one is testing us. Here is the last pic I am going to post, this is using 312 1/16" filler on 1" x 1" x .090" mild steel tubing, But weld, no slight bevel, the bead is completely flat, neither concave or convex.

[Dezertpilot]

Well lets see your work! You keep posting and I have seen nothing from you. So what you are saying... Is the example I posted, from probably the most experienced welder in our industry who has worked on the most accomplished TT's is a bad example?

So Craig asked you to post a picture of your work and you post someone elses work!? WAFJ no wonder he always talks $**** to you HAHAHA. This is fun!!!!

[loufish]

I have been TIG welding for quite some time and all of it would be "Single Pass". Of course I've seen many beautiful examples of a multi-pass, but have never actually seen it as it was being performed, so I have to ask, does anyone have a short video to watch how the torch/rod is correctly manipulated?

Thanks...

[nordictom]

I have been TIG welding for quite some time and all of it would be "Single Pass". Of course I've seen many beautiful examples of a multi-pass, but have never actually seen it as it was being performed, so I have to ask, does anyone have a short video to watch how the torch/rod is correctly manipulated?

Thanks...

The company I work at, has some very highly trained welders (nuclear, tig on hastelloy tube, etc) I'll talk to them this week, I'm sure we have some type of training video somewhere.

[cusico]

The company I work at, has some very highly trained welders (nuclear, tig on hastelloy tube, etc) I'll talk to them this week, I'm sure we have some type of training video somewhere.

Hastelloy is good stuff. Invar/monel/kovar, Waspaloy etc. is used everyday at my shop, and tested everyday. Most high temp alloys are only being used as a secondary piece, not as a structural member.

I put the offer out there to test everyone's welds ten pages ago, but not a soul even said a peep.

What I will say is true.... The greatest welds fail on poor designs. Most welds from a decent welding fabricator hold up on good chassis designs-proper triangulation, no dead tubes etc.

Weld have good values under shear and compression. tension load is not good for welds. The more you increase the flexure angle of the design, the greater the risk of weld failure.

Its all good, the off road genre sees higher load dynamics than most industries, so the bar is reset higher here. Just need to quantify those loads and petition the ISO to write a new assembly standard and we will win!

18,000 MPH + Vibration Amplitude + etc etc etc <trophy truck at idle.

[Brian Mapes]

Cusico, what kind of testing does your shop do. I will be more than happy to weld some 4130 coupons with any number of different filler types in a weave and single pass. Just let me know what kind of joint you guys want and what filler and I will weld it up.

[Brian Mapes]

And as for the question about how to weave. Basically just move the torch back and forth from side to side, everytime you get to the outer edge dip your filller then move to the other side and dip again. When you are just starting this technique it might help if you pulse with the pedal to help you get a better weld and reduce undercut.

[cusico]

posted Oct 28th 2008

If you would like it tested let me know.

I would be glad to RI mag shear torsion tensile compression angular flexure MOR proccess on this piece.



I love the offroad industry, it makes me laugh giggle cry and throw things.


Its like eyeballing the speed of a comet, I LOVE IT!!!

++++ Quote workinprogress====Cusico, what kind of testing does your shop do. I will be more than happy to weld some 4130 coupons with any number of different filler types in a weave and single pass. Just let me know what kind of joint you guys want and what filler and I will weld it up. Quote

Pick and choose.

[partybarge_pilot]

Pick and choose.

I'm in too, tell us what you need and I'll send it.


I think have this done by a neutral party is a good way to separate the hype from the fact.

[f1sleepy]

Nice to see some people stepping up to put their welds to the test. It would be nice to finally get some real, tangible data and not just a bunch of BS.

James

[tomahawkracefab]

everytime i weld it turns out down under....i'll send somethin over....nominate a standard for everyone to adhere too....fillet , butt and material, one weave, one sinlge pass

lol..this is like standing around in a circle and seein who's got the biggest schlong!....

are we chippin in beer for cusico ?

and no foot pedals!....pussies....

oh yeh....one more thing, we're playin the ball here.....not the man....

[ndvalium]

What a fillet weld should look like

http://www.weldingengineer.com/Fillet%20Weld%20Size%2002.GIF

Thank you very much ...I understand

[Brian Mapes]

So what does everyone want to do then maybe one person do only T joint fillet, one person only do butt joint, and one person maybe do an outside corner. All 1/8" 4130 plate since that thickness is what is most common in off road cages. use ER70s-2 filler. The weld has to be of correct size according to a.w.s. for 1/8" plate the legs of the fillet would need to be 1/8" tall. On a butt it needs to be fully penetrated to the back side. Without having a proper size weld the comparison will not work.Anyone want to add to what I just came up with??

[partybarge_pilot]

I'd like to see each person do all 3 in there style.

Cusico, what size coupons do you need? Should we all be welding pieces from the same sheet for accuracy? I can get them cut and sent out to participating people. EDIT..... Sent out to people on the west coast, If Tomahawk wants to get in on the fun he can pay for his own shipping......

[Brian Mapes]

I'd like to see each person do all 3 in there style.

Cusico, what size coupons do you need? Should we all be welding pieces from the same sheet for accuracy? I can get them cut and sent out to participating people. EDIT..... Sent out to people on the west coast, If Tomahawk wants to get in on the fun he can pay for his own shipping......



That works, we will get a better chance of having sucess doing it that way. What rod do you want to use? The pieces should probably first be checked for cracks before they are destroyed. Let decide on all the variables and then we can make it happen. What size plate do you want to use. Id say 1/8" 4130N 3" x 5" or 3" x 7".

[saintsandman]

Nice to see some people stepping up to put their welds to the test. It would be nice to finally get some real, tangible data and not just a bunch of BS.

James

I can already tell you, the base metal is going to control, as it does on most welds. So it does not matter if you single or weave weld the sample since the amount of filler is not determining the strength of the joint. If you over size the plate, say a 1/4” plate with a 1/8” fillet the weld now controls and since the weave places more filler into the joint it is going to be stronger than a single pass weld. If you really want to test the strength of the welds, you need to make sure the plate does not control the strength. You need to compare the effective throat of each, the single and weave than match them, if a single only allows .177” assuming 1/8” legs, and say the weave gives you an effective throat .1875” than the weave is going to be stronger. So if you guys want to compare methods you have to make sure that the tests are comparable. As I said 99% of the welds in off-roading the weld does not control the base metal does. Do I get a prize for providing tangible data?

P.S. To whoever said that welds have lower allowable loads in tension, that is incorrect, they have decrease ductility but increased strength.

[tomahawkracefab]

I can already tell you, the base metal is going to control, as it does on most welds. So it does not matter if you single or weave weld the sample since the amount of filler is not determining the strength of the joint. If you over size the plate, say a 1/4” plate with a 1/8” fillet the weld now controls and since the weave places more filler into the joint it is going to be stronger than a single pass weld. If you really want to test the strength of the welds, you need to make sure the plate does not control the strength. You need to compare the effective throat of each, the single and weave than match them, if a single only allows .177” assuming 1/8” legs, and say the weave gives you an effective throat .1875” than the weave is going to be stronger. So if you guys want to compare methods you have to make sure that the tests are comparable. As I said 99% of the welds in off-roading the weld does not control the base metal does. Do I get a prize for providing tangible data?

P.S. To whoever said that welds have lower allowable loads in tension, that is incorrect, they have decrease ductility but increased strength.


you've just summed-up the whole thread!!! play ball.....;)

[f1sleepy]

I can already tell you, the base metal is going to control, as it does on most welds. So it does not matter if you single or weave weld the sample since the amount of filler is not determining the strength of the joint. If you over size the plate, say a 1/4” plate with a 1/8” fillet the weld now controls and since the weave places more filler into the joint it is going to be stronger than a single pass weld. If you really want to test the strength of the welds, you need to make sure the plate does not control the strength. You need to compare the effective throat of each, the single and weave than match them, if a single only allows .177” assuming 1/8” legs, and say the weave gives you an effective throat .1875” than the weave is going to be stronger. So if you guys want to compare methods you have to make sure that the tests are comparable. As I said 99% of the welds in off-roading the weld does not control the base metal does. Do I get a prize for providing tangible data?

P.S. To whoever said that welds have lower allowable loads in tension, that is incorrect, they have decrease ductility but increased strength.

That was the first clear, logical explanation in this entire thread.

James

[Wild bill]

F1sleepy gets the cookie. Now lets get back to welding.

[cusico]

I can already tell you, the base metal is going to control, as it does on most welds. So it does not matter if you single or weave weld the sample since the amount of filler is not determining the strength of the joint. If you over size the plate, say a 1/4” plate with a 1/8” fillet the weld now controls and since the weave places more filler into the joint it is going to be stronger than a single pass weld. If you really want to test the strength of the welds, you need to make sure the plate does not control the strength. You need to compare the effective throat of each, the single and weave than match them, if a single only allows .177” assuming 1/8” legs, and say the weave gives you an effective throat .1875” than the weave is going to be stronger. So if you guys want to compare methods you have to make sure that the tests are comparable. As I said 99% of the welds in off-roading the weld does not control the base metal does. Do I get a prize for providing tangible data?

P.S. To whoever said that welds have lower allowable loads in tension, that is incorrect, they have decrease ductility but increased strength.

I said that I think. Most structural airframe engineers (aeronatical engineers) design welded componet to have the tension load placed on the linear axis of the weld (typ. fillet for example) because of Higher values given in that configuration. I am Not an engineer FYI. I just keep a few working steady.

The control comment is soo true. BUT the 2"x.120" 4130 "weave is better than single pass" thead is the basis right?

Does an 1/8" fillet single pass hold .120" material the same as a wide weave. P/P thought is yes.

Send me what ever to destroy, but the big dick thing will only be settled by setting a formula.

3 samples of 2"x.120" round welded to a 4"x4"x.250 plate with the standardized filler or 90 degree t section tube fit with standardized filler.

Unless I get a large number of samples, the averages are going to very close. I could have my welder weld up tube with the mig and come close to the same KIP shear.

Its going to be 2.2% stronger over 3 test-hah

[Chase 2]

My point has always been that the multi-pass weave welds being promoted are unnecessary, time consuming, and has conducted in the past to cover cr@ppy/sloppy work. I think that anyone who has been around welding for any length of time knows that the base material will fail before the weld with both properly welded single and multi-pass fillets. As pointed out, even a properly performed mig weld on the same joint should show base material failure before the fillet.

This whole thing basically boils down to what the untrained customer thinks is a better weld, its a sales gimmick in a vain attempt to set themselves apart from the competition. Or maybe this is like an argument of which is better; bolt-ons or naturals?

[WoodyW]

Or maybe this is like an argument of which is better; bolt-ons or naturals?

I volunteer myself to perform the Visual and non-destructive testing!

[Chase 2]

I volunteer myself to perform the Visual and non-destructive testing!

How did I know at least one guy would say this???

[1450-ranger]

Speed or comfort?? thats the real question

[WoodyW]

How did I know at least one guy would say this???

Because you are a guy too...

If there ever is a consensus on what, how and when there will be testing done, I'll submit coupons too just to keep it interesting.

[Chase 2]

Because you are a guy too...

If there ever is a consensus on what, how and when there will be testing done, I'll submit coupons too just to keep it interesting.

I seriously don't think that testing coupons will end the discussion. Both techniques should produce a joint where the fillet is stronger than the base material and that is where the coupon will fail.

[WoodyW]

I seriously don't think that testing coupons will end the discussion. Both techniques should produce a joint where the fillet is stronger than the base material and that is where the coupon will fail.

Exactly why I haven't commented on this thread, I have a lot of welding to do and not a lot of time to talk about it.

[cusico]

I will post pics of the welds I will detroy soon. I wish I could get paid to just break stuff. I kinda do, but I have to build what I break first.

[FUMMER]

I tend to play Devils advocate when someone asks for something out of the norm. or standard operating procedures. I am a newbie to the forum and only wish to express the what if:
Say your TT is involved in a horrific crash. Not your typical yard sale, but missed the opening to the overpass and hit a concrete barrier at a 45 degree angle, a true test of cage design, construction and safety equipment. Unfortunately the driver perishes as do 2 bystanders. Co-drivers and fellow chassis builders all agree it was unsurvivable.

Race officials document several fractures of tubes at the HAZ (heat affected zone) and a subsequent investigation revels the “possibility” of a manufacture defect.

A good trial lawyer will first compliment you on all your achievements and the beautiful work you have created over many years to establish you as a professional and then give the “so they should practice professional standards”.


He will want to see your welding procedure and certs. for the welders involved in welding “life saving protection cages” (or some dramatic description to emphasize the importance of it). He will also want to see the quality control docs, engineering data, and welding standards to which you comply.

This is when he may pull up a pic of a fractured HAZ and then provide the AWS description of a fillet weld. When asked why you do not conform to the standards and your reply is everyone else is doing it. He eats you alive. He will enlarge the photo and provide data of this and that. He will even get an easel with this blown up!

Regarding fillet welds. The leg should be the same size as the thickness of the metals. (In Bold type), If ¼” plate is being welded, a ¼” leg fillet is needed to properly join the members. The old saying, “If a little is good, a lot is better” may be true in some cases but not with fillet welds.
Consider again the ¼” thick plate. If a lot of weld would be better, think of ½” legs on the fillet. This would result in what is termed over-welding. This is not just twice as large as required, but its volume is three times that required. This wastes weld metal, welders time, causes more distortion and may even weaken the structure because of residual stress.
TIG Handbook for GTAW
Miller Electric Mfg. Co. 2005

I am not innocent, nor do I condone or support one way over another. However, when you are contracted to build a customer a life safety device (Cage) you are liable to build it to the standards set forth by the sanctioning body. And since welding is required it also needs to conform to standards.

Oh, and as a zinger- The laywer of coarse finds this 40 page debate that contested and raised concerns regarding the differences between the two techniques. And , to the lawyer’s delight ----you were here!
This will probably get me tossed out, but you got to think about the what if (especially around cages).

Here I sit "Do I hit Submit, or just let it lie".....Lie, lay, dam stupider than a 5th grader. I think its lie

[partybarge_pilot]

Say your TT is involved in a horrific crash. Not your typical yard sale, but missed the opening to the overpass and hit a concrete barrier at a 45 degree angle, a true test of cage design, construction and safety equipment. Unfortunately the driver perishes as do 2 bystanders. Co-drivers and fellow chassis builders all agree it was unsurvivable.

What you just described was Jason Baldwins crash at the 99? 500 except he lived. The other ultimate test of a cage that comes to mind recently is Jesse Jones crash of the cliff. In both case, the trucks hit things at angles you really wouldn't expect. While there was some structural damage, they all lived.

[FUMMER]

And thank God for that. I must say the sport has over-all has a awesome safety record. Hopefully a Earnhardt/Elliot never happens.

[loufish]

And as for the question about how to weave. Basically just move the torch back and forth from side to side, everytime you get to the outer edge dip your filller then move to the other side and dip again. When you are just starting this technique it might help if you pulse with the pedal to help you get a better weld and reduce undercut.

From the look of the weld, that's exactly what I thought (except pulsing the pedal)
Thanks...

[tool46n2]

Posting pics are for little emo girls on their myspace sites. Tell you what Jerry, I'll come by your shop and you and I will both weld identical coupons. We'll test them and the weak one gets to STFU for good. I don't want to hear what someone else does or says, or someone who works for does or says, YOU personally put up or shut up.

Soooo. How did the weld off go? Who won?

[Harrenstein]

I just started learning to tig weld this week and could use some advise. I am using a Miller syncrowave 200. The material I am welding is mild steel with thickness of .74-.10 (14-12 gage). I've been around 90-100 amps and using .35 wire for filler. And have not been pedal pulsing. Any suggestions on amperage or filler wire? I will post some pictures tomorrow of what I have done so far. Thanks.

[Brian Mapes]

Post pictures then I will comment and give advice. ok.

[Jerry Zaiden]

So Craig asked you to post a picture of your work and you post someone elses work!? WAFJ no wonder he always talks $**** to you HAHAHA. This is fun!!!!

He talks $**** to me because that is all he can do... Typical internet know it all.

I have posted plenty of pictures of work done in my company. This is my work as I own the company. Craig the so called welding expert has posted none. He is the typical internet know it all but yet when I called him out to show us his pictures of his work he said posting pictures is for emo girls... Every time chase 2 resorts to bashing.

I still do not understand why someone would call out the highest quality most proven welds in the industry by just saying it is a waste of time, covering up poor single pass welds, etc... Yes just like in a single pass weld it could be done incorrectly. But that is not the point, I am talking about both processes being done correctly the weave will take more time yes, but it will add more strength, and gusset the joint making a stronger attachment. But i guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks... lol

Now back to real world use in the off-road industry all I know is the highest quality race cars/trucks in this industry all have the weave process done to them. These builders do not use this process to cover up crappy single pass welds. These builders use this process because they have learned over the years that it will yield better results in the long run. Longer lasting chassis, less cracks in weld joints, better attachment. And I have yet to see a proper weave fail... EVER! but I have seen many high quality single pass welds fail. And yes the weave is a process used in welding it is not just a made up technique for looks like craig the certified welder from 30 years ago claims.

And Craig by the way yes I went to school for welding, Orange Coast College. I learned a good amount there but nothing like what I learned working in high end shops doing it in real world.

Come on craig let me have some more bashing...

By the way still waiting for the pictures of your work....

[mebuildit]

I've been following this thread for a while now. It's been very interesting to say the least. Very informative and that's what I like about these types of threads.

Although, I do have one question. Some people are saying that a weave is covering up a single bad weld. But if you weave over that it makes it stronger. I agree that a weave is stronger in the end. But, there always is one. If a welder can produce a nice looking good penetration weave then how would he / she have a crappy looking weld underneath?
I think if you can make a weave that looks great and has all of the correct heat and process done, wouldn't you be a good welder for your single pass?

Hopefully, you guys are understanding what I'm trying to say here.

Basically, good looking weave usually equates to a good single root pass. Shoot if you can't weld a weave then your single pass should look terrible.

I'm just a curious by-standard looking from the sidelines. I am not a great welder by any means.

[Chase 2]

He talks $**** to me because that is all he can do... Typical internet know it all. ohh the bashing, the bashing, I'm hurt LOL!! I have posted plenty of pictures of work done in my company. This is my work as I own the company. Jerry, is it true that work shown in your pics was done by a welder who is not a full time employee?? I have been told by at least three people that your welder of choice for pictures is a full time employee of a major power company. How can you try to use a thread like this brag on your company's work when what you are showing isn't done by your full time employees?? If this is true then the pics are not typical of the work being sold by you. Craig the so called welding expert has posted none. He is the typical internet know it all but yet when I called him out to show us his pictures of his work he said posting pictures is for emo girls... Every time chase 2 resorts to bashing. Oh Jerry don't bash so hard it hurts me so when you say hateful things like that! LOL!!! I've said it before and I'll say it again that posting pics of a weld yields little as to the quality and strength of the weld. A pic of the surface of a weld shows nothing other than how smooth a hand a welder has.

I still do not understand why someone would call out the highest quality most proven welds in the industry by just saying it is a waste of time, And just how are you backing up this statement??? Really, the most proven welds in the industry? What are your standards of proof? Jerry, that's a typical marketing spin and complete BS. covering up poor single pass welds, etc... Dude you are just being paranoid here, please provide a link where I said specifically that Camberg's initial passes were poor. Yes just like in a single pass weld it could be done incorrectly. But that is not the point, Actually it is the exact point, and the one that you seem to be missing. I am talking about both processes being done correctly the weave will take more time yes, Finally something we both agree on!!! LOL!!! but it will add more strength, and gusset the joint making a stronger attachment. This is exactly where you are wrong. If a proper single pass weld does not fail prior to the base metal the usage of a wider fillet yields nothing to the strength of the joint. There are welding industry standards for the size and shape of fillets, as mentioned above you should be very careful with what you promote from a product liability point of view. But i guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks... lol Oooh Jerry you are so mean LOL!!

Now back to real world use in the off-road industry all I know is the highest quality race cars/trucks in this industry all have the weave process done to them. So then you could provide a list of all of the fab shops that multi-pass weave all of the welds on their chassis and a list of those that don't, and not one of the none multi-pass shops are producing quality work? These builders do not use this process to cover up crappy single pass welds. These builders use this process because they have learned over the years that it will yield better results in the long run. Longer lasting chassis, less cracks in weld joints, better attachment. That my friends is just marketing hype here, no more no less. And I have yet to see a proper weave fail... EVER! but I have seen many high quality single pass welds fail. Hopefully not from your shop LOL!!! Jerry if you are saying that these specific "high quality single pass welds" failed where a multi-pass weld in the same application wouldn't, you are simply spewing BS. And yes the weave is a process used in welding it is not just a made up technique for looks like craig the certified welder from 30 years ago claims. Some here seem to get the impression that a a multi-pass weld always hides some underlying crappy work, I don't think that was ever said. However, that doesn't mean that it can't or isn't done. I've even see welds where that welder makes a second pass to clean up a weld and tried to make it look like a single pass.

And Craig by the way yes I went to school for welding, Orange Coast College. I learned a good amount there but nothing like what I learned working in high end shops doing it in real world.

Come on craig let me have some more bashing...

By the way still waiting for the pictures of your work....

Sorry Jerry, I still refuse to post meaningless pics. BTW how is it you bash me for being an internet know it all and a 30 year vet both at the same time?

[Jerry Zaiden]

Just to be clear... I have posted welding done by Jason the CAM in Camburg and Ron who we hired to weld on our new TT. Now we did not hire on Ron because we can't do the job. We hired him on because we are to busy. Now if we are going to hire on someone to do the job they better be as good or better than us at doing the job.

Now here are some pictures of work done in house by full time or should I say the other half... lol

[partybarge_pilot]

Jerry, is it true that work shown in your pics was done by a welder who is not a full time employee?? I have been told by at least three people that your welder of choice for pictures is a full time employee of a major power company. How can you try to use a thread like this brag on your company's work when what you are showing isn't done by your full time employees?? If this is true then the pics are not typical of the work being sold by you.

If you want to take it that far, their whole TT has been outsourced....... Everything from design, tube cutting, welding........ The only thing done in house was the tapping of the jig table. Speaking of which.........


Now we did not hire on Ron because we can't do the job. We hired him on because we are to busy.


So you are to busy to weld, but not to busy to drill/tap over a but load of holes in jig table?

Your still posting pics of other peoples work. I think the main point he is try to get across here is , Get out from behind the sales desk and weld something your self or keep quite.

[partybarge_pilot]

Why do I feel another ban coming on?

[Chase 2]

the CAM in Camburg


OK so where is the BURG?

[Brian Mapes]

I've been following this thread for a while now. It's been very interesting to say the least. Very informative and that's what I like about these types of threads.

Although, I do have one question. Some people are saying that a weave is covering up a single bad weld. But if you weave over that it makes it stronger. I agree that a weave is stronger in the end. But, there always is one. If a welder can produce a nice looking good penetration weave then how would he / she have a crappy looking weld underneath?
I think if you can make a weave that looks great and has all of the correct heat and process done, wouldn't you be a good welder for your single pass?

Hopefully, you guys are understanding what I'm trying to say here.

Basically, good looking weave usually equates to a good single root pass. Shoot if you can't weld a weave then your single pass should look terrible.

I'm just a curious by-standard looking from the sidelines. I am not a great welder by any means.



Ok i understand what you are saying but it is incorrect. Someone can do a horrible first pass weld and have lack of fusion, lack or penetration, cracking, cold lap, and then lay a weave on top of it and it will make it look good, but underneath you will still be lacking fusion and penetration. Get it?

[Chase 2]

Ok i understand what you are saying but it is incorrect. Someone can do a horrible first pass weld and have lack of fusion, lack or penetration, cracking, cold lap, and then lay a weave on top of it and it will make it look good, but underneath you will still be lacking fusion and penetration. Get it?

Exactly! You only get one chance at full penetration and that's the first pass AKA "root pass" or as they say you "burn a root in". I've seen it where a poor fitting joint has a gap so the welder comes in and fills the gap with a bunch of "boogers" then washes over the entire mess soothing it out making it appear to be an acceptable joint. Most commonly in high pressure pipe welding the pipe is first beveled and a root pass is made with 100% penetration, then two successive passes are laid down adjacent to each other on top of the root pass, then a third cup walked weave is washed over the top finishing the entire joint. This process is done where it takes the multiple passes to properly fill the bevel and build the proper fillet on top.

[D-T Yota]

Well for everyone who "knows it all" I dont think you really do. I'm not claiming to know it all either. But there are a few things to take into consideration when TIG or GTAW welding. First of all it is pretty neccesary to have a multi-pass weld on anything over 3/16 or 1/4" because the strength of a TIG weld is usually determined by how much filler material is in the weld. And it is better to do multi pass because you can get a good root pass to initially join the base metals and then go over it again with rod to strengthen the weld and adding another pass also acts as a form of heat treating(stress releiving) which will bring the heat affected zone and weld zone up at an even temperature all at the same time and then slowly cool down at the same rate which will releive stress and help prevent cracks. And as far as tubing, theres not just one right way and wrong way to do it. I personally like to run two passes on main structural parts because they take allot of stress and abuse, and i usually weld overlay plates and gussets and smaller tubes with only one pass because they dont take as much force. So you cant really argue and say this is wrong or right because every application is different. Some things require more weld than others.

Allot of it comes down to your skill level, knowledge and preference. You can hear this or learn that in school or from others but you cant really just know what works and what doesnt work until you do it yourself and go through the trial and error. and if im goin 100 mph in a 6,000 pound truck and flip it or wad up i dont wanna rely on a tiny little one pass tig weld

[Jerry Zaiden]

If you want to take it that far, their whole TT has been outsourced....... Everything from design, tube cutting, welding........ The only thing done in house was the tapping of the jig table. Speaking of which.........




So you are to busy to weld, but not to busy to drill/tap over a but load of holes in jig table?

Your still posting pics of other peoples work. I think the main point he is try to get across here is , Get out from behind the sales desk and weld something your self or keep quite.


The main point of this thread is to inform. Now I have posted pictures and am trying to inform. The other guy is just typing and so are you.

Barge you come on so many posts and also act like an expert. Please show us what you have built or what you can do. Can you weld? lets see it!

[JPhillips]

Jerry, you mentioned going to OCC for welding. Did you happen to have Galvery teach you? Just curious. I don't want to take sides because I'm no expert (like most of the people on here, but unlike most I will admit it) but if you did take him I recal asking him the same question and he told me on material .120 and smaller a single pass is standard. Of course you can argue that he doesn't offroad and you do. Sigh, this just keeps going around in circles. Plese don't take offense I'm not attaking anyone, just observing.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Jerry, you mentioned going to OCC for welding. Did you happen to have Galvery teach you? Just curious. I don't want to take sides because I'm no expert (like most of the people on here, but unlike most I will admit it) but if you did take him I recal asking him the same question and he told me on material .120 and smaller a single pass is standard. Of course you can argue that he doesn't offroad and you do. Sigh, this just keeps going around in circles. Plese don't take offense I'm not attaking anyone, just observing.

Yes I had him and Blesh back in 1991-1993.

[specialized]

My point has always been that the multi-pass weave welds being promoted are unnecessary, time consuming, and has conducted in the past to cover cr@ppy/sloppy work.

This whole thing basically boils down to what the untrained customer thinks is a better weld, its a sales gimmick in a vain attempt to set themselves apart from the competition. Or maybe this is like an argument of which is better; bolt-ons or naturals?

What I do for a living requires my utmost attention to detail and craftmanship. Not only my reputation is on the line, but also peoples lives are at stake. If my welds are a sales gimmick and people buy into this, then i should be salesman of the year. My job is to educate the customer to provide the best workmanship I can so they can race another day. By the way, how much is your life worth?

[FUMMER]

Just a question. The first pic is your root pass. I don't see any heat signature, are you just adding filler for a base? I ask cause I have been laying a good looking single pass but jack it up on the second pass. Corners and T's are looking good but roundy round is proving more difficult. Are you using the pulsar and if so what PPM are you using. Thanks

[specialized]

Just a question. The first pic is your root pass. I don't see any heat signature, are you just adding filler for a base? I ask cause I have been laying a good looking single pass but jack it up on the second pass. Corners and T's are looking good but roundy round is proving more difficult. Are you using the pulsar and if so what PPM are you using. Thanks

Silly me. the first pic is from somebody else. The point I was trying to get across is that there are a lot of people trying to do this type of welding. I was just showing the proper way of doing this method. The worst part of going over someone else's mistake
is to make sure you grind out the weld the best you can and start over. Thanks

[wheezy]

Jerry, you mentioned going to OCC for welding. Did you happen to have Galvery teach you?


Yes I had him and Blesh back in 1991-1993.

Jerry is old.... :p:D just kidding Jerry.

OCC Welding... I had Galvary too, but HUTCH is the man! That guy is amazing with a TIG torch in his hand. I witnessed him fusion weld a butt joint on some pipe (don't remember the material) and you couldn't see the joint with the naked eye. He was demonstrating "walking the cup". I learned just enough to know that I shouldn't ever weld a chassis, or anything else structurally important.

Anyhow, it seems that welding is an extension of the wiener, and a source of pride for many. I don't know what my point is, but I'll echo the fact that I think double stich tig welds look cool!

My spare tire mount.
http://toddaveryphoto.com/hostedpics/bug/DSC_1548.jpg

[motoxscott]

Ron ... those are some sexy welds you got there ... time to start throwing them down on my Bronco ... haha

Funny thing about what you posted .. the first pic is an end product that a "reputable" offroad shop did. I'm sure the new owner of the truck is very happy you ground those welds out and re-did them "correctly".

Suxs you lost UFC 94 ... you'll get St. Pierre next time haha.

- Scott

[Jerry Zaiden]

Suxs you lost UFC 94 ... you'll get St. Pierre next time haha.

- Scott

Lol... :D

[motoxscott]

http://tequiero.nimnim.net/richchou/files/2008/11/ufc94poster21.jpg

[Jerry Zaiden]

This looks a little better... haha

[roostthemoon]

My spare tire mount.
http://toddaveryphoto.com/hostedpics/bug/DSC_1548.jpg

WOW, I really like the design of that tire mount. Purchase available??

[wheezy]

WOW, I really like the design of that tire mount. Purchase available??

Yep, not sure how much though, and he's gotta finish MY car first!

I'll be at the shop all day today. I'll ask him about it and let you know.

[JPhillips]

[QUOTE=wheezy;717933]Jerry is old.... :p:D just kidding Jerry.

OCC Welding... I had Galvary too, but HUTCH is the man! That guy is amazing with a TIG torch in his hand. I witnessed him fusion weld a butt joint on some pipe (don't remember the material) and you couldn't see the joint with the naked eye. He was demonstrating "walking the cup". I learned just enough to know that I shouldn't ever weld a chassis, or anything else structurally important.

Anyhow, it seems that welding is an extension of the wiener, and a source of pride for many. I don't know what my point is, but I'll echo the fact that I think double stich tig welds look cool!

I never had Hutch, was he the guy that taught the Orbital welding course? i went about 4 years ago, so maybe he was gone. They had a great program there and Galvery was so good,but I know what you mean about not wanting to weld chasis anymore. I think the class scared me when he showed us all that can go wrong, even though I passed with flying colors. I guess the more I know the more I know that I don't know anything.

[wheezy]

Yes, Hutch teaches TIG and Orbital and probably a slew of other things as well. He's still there as far as I know.

Roostthemoon: $120 for the mount (beats the crap outta the junk they sell at McKenzies for $100)

[loufish]

Has anybody found a short multipass welding vid? I'd still love to see it performed correctly....

[Jerry Zaiden]

Has anybody found a short multipass welding vid? I'd still love to see it performed correctly....

I am working on it, it will be very informative. Specialized is one of the great welders in this his work can be seen on Robby Gordon, Alpha, and now the Kinetik TT as well as many others. I am bribing him to do a how to video... We will see what happens. :D At minimum I will get a video up with the first single pass then the weave process. Either Ron or Jason will do it. Who knows maybe I will even do it!

[nordictom]

Has anybody found a short multipass welding vid? I'd still love to see it performed correctly....

I have made a few calls to our in house testing staff, they are trying to come up with something.

One of our welders is looking for a few photos of the welds he did on R. Gordon's car last year. should be interesting....

[partybarge_pilot]

The main point of this thread is to inform. Now I have posted pictures of other peoples work and am trying to inform. The other guy is just typing and so are you.

Barge you come on so many posts and also act like an expert. Please show us what you have built or what you can do. Can you weld? lets see it!

Ah, you got Me Jerry! I can't weld. But a couple of pages back Cuisco was offering to test some welded samples. I was more than willing to send out material so that the results wouldn't be influenced by different materials. So how about it Jerry? Want to put your (not somebody working for you) welding skills up against somebody that is just learning how to weld? Throw down your best double pass and I'll try to figure out how to TIG a single pass and will see whats up. I mean, it's going to a large learning curve for Me going from 2 car batteries, jumper cables and some left over 7013 rod from the 70's, but I'm willing to try.

[Andy McMillin]

This thread is like a bunch of 5 year old girls arguing about whose barbie doll is prettier. This thread should be about WELDING. And helpful tools for people to learn from. This thread should not be aimed at degrading other people's work.

Chase 2 and all others from this thread. I'm pretty sure we all learned this lesson as kids, but some of you seem to have forgotten what MOMMY used to say...

If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all!

RDC is getting rediculous because of threads like these and because of some of the stupid people who post on them that really don't know what they are talking about!