Baja Bug 5-1600class

[David Casas]

Does anyone have any pointers?
Need some ideas on some fab work.

[Gonzo 5/1600]

Kind of a broad question... I'd suggest looking at pictures of various cars and seeing what works and what doesn't, pick out some designs you like and combine them. There are lots of tricks you'll learn along the way, so talking to people is important!

These cars are a ton of fun but a rough ride! Good Luck.

[David Casas]

Sick,
man thanks for answering the call.
Yea i work at VW Paradise, machine shop with Jason.
Im doing this on the side. Im not really a fabricator though.
Do you suggest that i Remove the body and install new floor pan halfs?
My profoile has the pictures of what shape it is in.
If yes then its cool.

[Gonzo 5/1600]

Awsome! Jason built our motor. I've probably seen you there (at VW paradise) we're always in there wasting Jason's time!

I would definately suggest removing the body from the pan for replacing the halves among other things. I see your car is either a '66 or '67 so you'll need to convert both front and rear to linkpin/IRS... We spent hundreds of man hours just prepping the pan for various things.

[FullsizeFun]

Hey David, we didnt have too much time to talk when you picked up the car. Start by stripping it down to the bare pan. The floor should be in pretty good shape except for maybe where the battery was sitting. Weld in the good IRS pivots, Torsion adjuster, and truss the torsion housing. The Torsion housing is the back-bone of a 5-1600, if you bend that then the car is junk.

[David Casas]

Thanks for the help...
you guys rock!
Im going to be taking a lot of pictures of the build to let you guys know whats up.

[David Casas]

Could you possibly explain the significance and the function of IRS pivots, Torsion adjuster, and truss the torsion housing...?
What size chromaly is required for 516? My steel sponsor wantsa to know?

Hey David, we didnt have too much time to talk when you picked up the car. Start by stripping it down to the bare pan. The floor should be in pretty good shape except for maybe where the battery was sitting. Weld in the good IRS pivots, Torsion adjuster, and truss the torsion housing. The Torsion housing is the back-bone of a 5-1600, if you bend that then the car is junk.

[Wilson]

David,

The SCORE rulebook requires 1.5" x.095" (at a minimum) seamless tube be used for the "required" cage elements for vehicles 2000 lbs or less (5/1600's fall into this range unless you go crazy on the cage...). It gives you the choice of CDN/4130/Seamless or 1018/1026 CDS/DOM steel, but IMO 4130 is the better of the two choices. Just make sure you use "seamless" tubing!

The questions you're asking about the torsion adjuster, truss and IRS are basic VW knowledge, and this isn't really the best place to learn the "basics". You probably need to have someone give you a "tour" of the rear suspension on a 5/1600 to really "get it"...... We currently have our car apart for some upgrades, you're welcome to come by and see it if you'd like. Or, we'll have the car at VW paradise in the next month or so for Jason to fine tune our motor - you can have a look then. We might be able to answer your questions better by "showing" you!

[David Casas]

So I would be better off with 2" IMO 4130 seamless chromaly?
Yea thats no problem in coming by sometime...im live close to Guajome Park, N Santa fe, and the 76....
This weekend im leaving for the NORRS race in Lancaster, but next weekend or during the week is a good time for me. Im not sure about your schedule though.
Im sure that we can work somethig out.
Thank you,

David,

The SCORE rulebook requires 1.5" x.095" (at a minimum) seamless tube be used for the "required" cage elements for vehicles 2000 lbs or less (5/1600's fall into this range unless you go crazy on the cage...). It gives you the choice of CDN/4130/Seamless or 1018/1026 CDS/DOM steel, but IMO 4130 is the better of the two choices. Just make sure you use "seamless" tubing!

The questions you're asking about the torsion adjuster, truss and IRS are basic VW knowledge, and this isn't really the best place to learn the "basics". You probably need to have someone give you a "tour" of the rear suspension on a 5/1600 to really "get it"...... We currently have our car apart for some upgrades, you're welcome to come by and see it if you'd like. Or, we'll have the car at VW paradise in the next month or so for Jason to fine tune our motor - you can have a look then. We might be able to answer your questions better by "showing" you!

[Wilson]

So I would be better off with 2" IMO 4130 seamless chromaly?
Yea thats no problem in coming by sometime...im live close to Guajome Park, N Santa fe, and the 76....
This weekend im leaving for the NORRS race in Lancaster, but next weekend or during the week is a good time for me. Im not sure about your schedule though.
Im sure that we can work somethig out.
Thank you,



For the "required" cage elements, you don't need to go bigger than 1.5 X .095 tubing (for SCORE, I don't know about other organizations), it would just add unnecessary weight. Parts of the cage that are not required by SCORE can use other size/wall thickness material, at your discretion (but SCORE will check the thickness of the required elements when you get it "tagged"). You really need to have a rulebook on hand when you build this, we'll bring one by for you......

The material choices are:

CDN/4130/Seamless (cold drawn 4130 seamless tubing)
or
1018/1026 CDS/DOM (1018/1026 cold drawn steel/drawn over mandrel steel)

When I said "IMO 4130 is the better of the two choices", I meant "In my opinion 4130 is the better of the two choices". IMO is not a steel type. You can use either the 4130 seamless or the 1018/1026 mild steel - the 1018/1026 is easier to work with (bend, grind, etc.) but isn't as strong. The weight and price is essentially the same for both types, so strength is the defining difference. Tube Service can supply just about any type of tubing you want - don't go bargin hunting when you shop for roll cage steel! Most people can't tell one type of steel from another just by looking at it (though new steel should have the type printed on it) - get it from a "known" supplier to be sure you're getting what you expect.

We are going to be in Baja for 10 days - 2 weeks starting on Friday, but we'll work something out when we get back.

[FullsizeFun]

Here is a feature on Jeff Sack's 5-1600. There is some good detailed shots of the car, study some of the pictures of the rear suspension.
http://www.desertrides.com/features/vehicles/sack_class5/index.php

[David Casas]

Ill be down in baja for the 500 June5-8th. . .
thanks for the help

For the "required" cage elements, you don't need to go bigger than 1.5 X .095 tubing (for SCORE, I don't know about other organizations), it would just add unnecessary weight. Parts of the cage that are not required by SCORE can use other size/wall thickness material, at your discretion (but SCORE will check the thickness of the required elements when you get it "tagged"). You really need to have a rulebook on hand when you build this, we'll bring one by for you......

The material choices are:

CDN/4130/Seamless (cold drawn 4130 seamless tubing)
or
1018/1026 CDS/DOM (1018/1026 cold drawn steel/drawn over mandrel steel)

When I said "IMO 4130 is the better of the two choices", I meant "In my opinion 4130 is the better of the two choices". IMO is not a steel type. You can use either the 4130 seamless or the 1018/1026 mild steel - the 1018/1026 is easier to work with (bend, grind, etc.) but isn't as strong. The weight and price is essentially the same for both types, so strength is the defining difference. Tube Service can supply just about any type of tubing you want - don't go bargin hunting when you shop for roll cage steel! Most people can't tell one type of steel from another just by looking at it (though new steel should have the type printed on it) - get it from a "known" supplier to be sure you're getting what you expect.

We are going to be in Baja for 10 days - 2 weeks starting on Friday, but we'll work something out when we get back.

[Wilson]

Here is a feature on Jeff Sack's 5-1600. There is some good detailed shots of the car, study some of the pictures of the rear suspension.
http://www.desertrides.com/features/vehicles/sack_class5/index.php

David,

It's important to look at as many 5/1600 cars as possible before you start making design decisions. There are lots of good ideas out there, and some not so good.

There are also lots of cars whose owners call 5/1600's, but are obviously at odds with the SCORE rule set (all the race organizations use a subset of the SCORE rules)..... That's why you need the rule book handy - you'll have a better feel for what's legal and what's questionable when you look at cars (for example, look at the frame heads on many 5/1600's and you'll see tie rod clearancing that goes WAY beyond what's allowed in the rules. Body lifts are also not allowed, but I've seen them on some "5/1600's"). You will need to decide how far you want to "push" the rule set (there are HUGE gray areas....) - do you want to win at all costs, or do you want to win within the rules?

There are lots of things we can all do to make our cars faster/stronger/easier to drive - but 5/1600 is a "limited" class, and the rules intentionally restrict what we are allowed to do......

[WALSHMOTORSPORTS]

You ever think of just buying a used car or a roller? I will be selling a 5/1600 with or without motor next month after I finish up power steering. You can pm me with any questions.

[David Casas]

Wilson,
You are completely right and I am on you side of the opinion, I do have a rulebook handy and i am reading it thouroughly.

[Wilson]

Wilson,
You are completely right and I am on you side of the opinion, I do have a rulebook handy and i am reading it thouroughly.

Glad you've got a rulebook handy, saved me a trip to VW Paradise (and I know Jason doesn't want to see me for at least another week!).

The rule book is a good starting point, but you will find many areas that are vague, and some that actually conflict with other sections of the book! Some things are very clearly spelled out, others require some interpretation (and that's where the problems start!). That's what I meant by needing to decide how far you want to "push" the rule set. There's "enough rope to hang yourself with" in the gray areas.....

I know that you are working with limited funds, but Walshmotorsports asks a great question - have you considered a used car or a roller? Realistically, you can get a decent used car for way less than you'll spend building one from scratch (been there, done that and I'd do it again......).

[David Casas]

The reason I got it.
Was to start from the bottom up. From scratch.
I wanted the challenge and thats why im doing it in the first place. I want to learn the hard way so in the future its only natural.
Im prone for mistakes but I will fix them.

[Wilson]

The reason I got it.
Was to start from the bottom up. From scratch.
I wanted the challenge and thats why im doing it in the first place. I want to learn the hard way so in the future its only natural.
Im prone for mistakes but I will fix them.

That's awesome! You'll certainly know your car!

[WALSHMOTORSPORTS]

I agree I built mine from a $200 bug and I do know every inch of my car. keep the build pics coming! I'll see if I can put up a couple of my build for you.