Best Bolts to use

[OffRoadGeorge]

I am swapping out some of the bolts on my 1 Car. I am looking to use the best bolts for each application. For example I was told that class 9 bolts are too brittle for some applications.

Looking for advice on best bolts to use for the following uses:

1) Shocks
2) Steering rod ends
3) A-Arms


Class 8, Class 9 or other??

Thanks

[CRAIG_HALL]

Use the best you can afford. Aircraft, then F9-11 then gr-8. GR-8 will, but give them a chance by spending the time to find the proper grip length (no thread in tab/bracket). Involves getting the closest longer bolt and cutting off th excess threads.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Use the best you can afford. Aircraft, then F9-11 then gr-8. GR-8 will, but give them a chance by spending the time to find the proper grip length (no thread in tab/bracket). Involves getting the closest longer bolt and cutting off th excess threads.

We no longer use F-911... They are crap! To many heads popping off....

We now use Bomalloy and grade 8. But for the real high end stuff I call my dad and get the good stuff!

http://barnesdistribution.com/pdf/eng/brochures/K-1284%20QualityTopDown.pdf

[baja stu]

Your local CAT dealer can provide you with high strength grade 8 bolts @ 170,000 to 180,000 psi bolts. I have built my whole car with them. And they have some crazy sizes.

[M.Harvey1600]

yeah i have always used F9-11 then moved NAS aircraft bolts... PRICEY but they last forever... i was replacing my hardware every 5-8 races on my 1600 car just 2 b careful and now i inspect the hardware and we havent replaced hardware n 6 years... well besides floor and skid bolts we still use F9-11's for those but everything else is NAS aircraft quality...

in the long run i feel they r the way to go on any race car!!!

[manicmechanic]

We no longer use F-911... They are crap! To many heads popping off....

We now use Bomalloy and grade 8. But for the real high end stuff I call my dad and get the good stuff!

http://barnesdistribution.com/pdf/eng/brochures/K-1284%20QualityTopDown.pdf

Thanks for the chart Jerry. I work on cranes and manilifts for those the bolts are purchased from the boom manufacturer. Didnt realize that "A' on the bolthead was a bowmalloy mark since the boom manufacturers name starts with A. These are critical fasteners. We have seen to many times what happens when they fail.
It would be cool to find out who makes bolts for Cat!

[OffRoadGeorge]

Thank you guys. Jerry you always answer with great information. I apreciate it. If there is ever a chance to bring my car to your shop I will.

[partybarge_pilot]

Also, SHCS made by Holochrome or Unbrako are also good choices.

[NIKAL]

I have used the F-911 brand bolt and have never had a failure. I will say to becareful though as there are Chinese knock off 9-11's, and those are junk. They look almost identical except for the marking on the head is a bit different, and if you do not know what a real F9-11 brand bolt looked like, or if not looking close you would not catch it. We got all of our F9-11's at Bolts 4 U and one time we needed a bolt and went to a shop closer to home and was handed a Chinese F9-11. When I questioned it the guy behind the counter did not even know or at least he claimed to not know that those were Chinese that he was selling.

I have seen a bolt shear and a head pop off one before, but they were both Chinese bolts.

[joe1369]

I have used the F-911 brand bolt and have never had a failure. I will say to becareful though as there are Chinese knock off 9-11's, and those are junk. They look almost identical except for the marking on the head is a bit different, and if you do not know what a real F9-11 brand bolt looked like, or if not looking close you would not catch it. We got all of our F9-11's at Bolts 4 U and one time we needed a bolt and went to a shop closer to home and was handed a Chinese F9-11. When I questioned it the guy behind the counter did not even know or at least he claimed to not know that those were Chinese that he was selling.

I have seen a bolt shear and a head pop off one before, but they were both Chinese bolts.

Is it possible to post up some pictures of the real f-911 and the Chinese knock offs??? Then we will all know what is junk, ha, get it chinese junk.:D

[NIKAL]

Here is a link to a previous thread about the F911 bolt and I posted a picture of what the real F911 should look like. I will see if I can find a knock off bolt, but the best way is to make sure is to look for the F911 logo is on the head of the bolt.

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47838&highlight=F911+bolts

[Red_beard]

It would be cool to find out who makes bolts for Cat!

CAT manufactures their own bolts.

[Jerry Zaiden]

I have used the F-911 brand bolt and have never had a failure. I will say to becareful though as there are Chinese knock off 9-11's, and those are junk. They look almost identical except for the marking on the head is a bit different, and if you do not know what a real F9-11 brand bolt looked like, or if not looking close you would not catch it. We got all of our F9-11's at Bolts 4 U and one time we needed a bolt and went to a shop closer to home and was handed a Chinese F9-11. When I questioned it the guy behind the counter did not even know or at least he claimed to not know that those were Chinese that he was selling.

I have seen a bolt shear and a head pop off one before, but they were both Chinese bolts.

Just to be clear. We bought all our bolts direct from the manufacture FOREMOST - F-911 (http://www.f911.com/) .

Keep in mind we bought thousands of there bolts and used them in our kits. We had 2 batches of bolts have problems and that was 2 batches to much.... The bolts were torqued to spec and within a few days the head of the bolt was on the ground next to our race truck that had not even been used yet... This scared the crap out of me! One of our really good friends John Snelling who was the main prep guy for the late Jason Baldwin always said he had problems with F-911 bolts and told us we would see this problem. Now I was always a fan of F-911 until we had the problem twice.
The scary thing is I called Foremost and told them and they said they had never seen this problem. Then we got a call back a few days later stating they have had this problem a few times because of hydrogen embrittlement after plating.

[Wild bill]

www.darlingbolt.com (http://www.darlingbolt.com)

This is the manufacture I chose for ALL the fasteners on my TT. Their 12 point fasteners are what I chose for all critical applications.

[Chester1]

CAT manufactures their own bolts.

And the threads are rolled into the shank, not cut!!

[partybarge_pilot]

And the threads are rolled into the shank, not cut!!

Most good bolts are......

[Superfab]

For the best high end hardware these guys have the stuff. Great service but pricey. Of course you get what you pay for.
http://www.coastfab.com/

[TUBETECK]

yeah i have always used F9-11 then moved NAS aircraft bolts... PRICEY but they last forever... i was replacing my hardware every 5-8 races on my 1600 car just 2 b careful and now i inspect the hardware and we havent replaced hardware n 6 years... well besides floor and skid bolts we still use F9-11's for those but everything else is NAS aircraft quality...

in the long run i feel they r the way to go on any race car!!!




Where would I find these bolts your talking about?

[joe1369]

How about some part#'s of ms or nas bolts, say 5/8" and how do you add the length p/n so we look like we know what we are talking about when we go to order some. Just trying to learn.:D

[odtodd1az]

Thanks for the chart Jerry. I work on cranes and manilifts for those the bolts are purchased from the boom manufacturer. Didnt realize that "A' on the bolthead was a bowmalloy mark since the boom manufacturers name starts with A. These are critical fasteners. We have seen to many times what happens when they fail.
It would be cool to find out who makes bolts for Cat!

Lawson company makes the hardware for Cat. It's their true torque line I beleive. they have a bit thicker (taller) head. Still has the 8 slash marks on the top, but the shank to thread transition is more radiused for strenght. Like 180, 000 lbs.

[mebuildit]

I've been using CoastFab's fasteners for a while now. Very nice product, a bit pricey but what is your safety worth?

[TUBETECK]

Where would I find these bolts your talking about?



In recent times Ive used CAT bolts just because they are free and they were "grade8". After further research and abusive testing on my 5-16 these are what I will use on all important fasteners(i.e. arms,motor mounts,skid plates,shocks etc.) all the other bolts will be g8. I've "seen" bolts that are used for the Apache helicopter used on a certain 10 car but trying to get my hands on those Ti bolts with mechanical locking device on the threads is near impossible. Anyway wishfull thinking.

[Superfab]

Here's a link to a Carroll Smith Book a smart fabricator / prep guy should have. Very informative. It answers your questions about different types of bolts and their applications. Plus it has bolt charts for selecting the right lengths. It covers safety wiring and also race car plumbing. It also has a section on washer selection for different type of bolts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=A81HmmRCN7YC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=nas+bolt+chart&source=bl&ots=ZvmJyDDAMx&sig=RE1lk_LCS7C69U1U2JXdcnNGuL8&hl=en&ei=ozVISpezL4byMYqO_LMC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

[Triaged]

How about some part#'s of ms or nas bolts, say 5/8" and how do you add the length p/n so we look like we know what we are talking about when we go to order some. Just trying to learn.:DCost Fab has some data sheets. The rest can be found at various places like everyspec (www.everyspec.com).

12-point 180ksi bolts are MS21250. Look in the spec sheets for the proper diameter (in increments of 1/16" so 5/8" = 10/16" => -10) and grip length codes as well as head/shank drilled holes.
Washers to go with them are MS20002(C) (c for chamfered for bolts and no chamfer for nuts).
12-point nuts are H93/NAS1804

Just like bearings a small change in size can bring a huge change in price and availability so plan accordingly.

AN-03 to AN-20 are more normal hex head bolts that are strength wise somewhere in between grade-5 and grade-8. You use AN315 (tall) or AN316 (thin) nuts and AN960 washers. They work great for double shear applications and aren't very expensive at all. They are hard to find in large diameter and long lengths.

There are also NAS6208 close tolerance bolts for when you want the bolt to locate something accurately.

[joe1369]

Cost Fab has some data sheets. The rest can be found at various places like everyspec (www.everyspec.com).

12-point 180ksi bolts are MS21250. Look in the spec sheets for the proper diameter (in increments of 1/16" so 5/8" = 10/16" => -10) and grip length codes as well as head/shank drilled holes.
Washers to go with them are MS20002(C) (c for chamfered for bolts and no chamfer for nuts).
12-point nuts are H93/NAS1804

Just like bearings a small change in size can bring a huge change in price and availability so plan accordingly.

AN-03 to AN-20 are more normal hex head bolts that are strength wise somewhere in between grade-5 and grade-8. You use AN315 (tall) or AN316 (thin) nuts and AN960 washers. They work great for double shear applications and aren't very expensive at all. They are hard to find in large diameter and long lengths.

There are also NAS6208 close tolerance bolts for when you want the bolt to locate something accurately.

Thanks for the response, I have written all that info down.:cool:

[TUBETECK]

Here's a link to a Carroll Smith Book a smart fabricator / prep guy should have. Very informative. It answers your questions about different types of bolts and their applications. Plus it has bolt charts for selecting the right lengths. It covers safety wiring and also race car plumbing. It also has a section on washer selection for different type of bolts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=A81HmmRCN7YC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=nas+bolt+chart&source=bl&ots=ZvmJyDDAMx&sig=RE1lk_LCS7C69U1U2JXdcnNGuL8&hl=en&ei=ozVISpezL4byMYqO_LMC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Damn that was very interseting. Quite an eyeopener, needless to say I'll be rethinking my fasteners from now on

[atomicjoe23]

In recent times Ive used CAT bolts just because they are free and they were "grade8". After further research and abusive testing on my 5-16 these are what I will use on all important fasteners(i.e. arms,motor mounts,skid plates,shocks etc.) all the other bolts will be g8. I've "seen" bolts that are used for the Apache helicopter used on a certain 10 car but trying to get my hands on those Ti bolts with mechanical locking device on the threads is near impossible. Anyway wishfull thinking.

For anyone who has the cash that would consider titanium fasteners because of titaniums amazing properties. . .be careful. . .titanium may be appropriate for an Apache helicopter, but I personally would use caution when selelcting where to use Ti fasteners on any of my vehicles. . .

Titanium has amazing strength to weight properties, but it has a much shorter fatigue life than steel does. . .a thing to remember to factor into the already much more expensive initial cost . . .I was involved with nuclear power for ~10 years prior to deciding to go back to school for welding/technical design. . .we didn't use Ti anywhere because of these issues, but you can guess who did use Ti with astounding results can't you. . .that's right the Russians!

I'm not bad-mouthing Ti. . .it's great. . .it just has it's proper place and application, that's all.

[randy68]

For anyone who has the cash that would consider titanium fasteners because of titaniums amazing properties. . .be careful. . .titanium may be appropriate for an Apache helicopter, but I personally would use caution when selelcting where to use Ti fasteners on any of my vehicles. . .

Titanium has amazing strength to weight properties, but it has a much shorter fatigue life than steel does. . .a thing to remember to factor into the already much more expensive initial cost . . .I was involved with nuclear power for ~10 years prior to deciding to go back to school for welding/technical design. . .we didn't use Ti anywhere because of these issues, but you can guess who did use Ti with astounding results can't you. . .that's right the Russians!

I'm not bad-mouthing Ti. . .it's great. . .it just has it's proper place and application, that's all.


So true..
Titanium, like stainless, is "soft" and has no "memory." (It will bend a lot
before it breaks, but will not return to it's original shape.) The threads stretch.
NOT a good choice for bolts that need to be torqued.

I learned the hard way when I replaced all the external bolts on a 454 in a"go fast" boat I had.....big mistake!

[atomicjoe23]

Just a tid bit on off-topic Ti information. . .the Russians also had the great idea to use titanium as the hull material for their Akula class submarines (which were faster than our torpedo's. . .but at a price. . .they were fast because they were light partly due to the Ti hull) these subs were severely limited in how deep they could go because the Ti hulls didn't cope well with the cyclic stresses of submersing deep and surfacing repeatedly. . .each time the Akula went to "test" depth the boat would get a new, shallower test depth for the next dive because the hull had just been weakened and would crack if it went to the same depth too many times. . .

. . .the other reason the Akula was light was because they didn't have much (if any) shielding for the crew to protect them from the radiation produced by the nuclear reactor. . .the solution was to rotate the crew for short periods very often to attempt to keep them from getting radiation protection. . .

. . .I'm glad I live in the good 'ol US of A!

[loufish]

the Russians also had the great idea to use titanium as the hull material for their Akula class submarines (which were faster than our torpedo's. .

The other reason for a Ti hull, was because Ti is non -magnetic they (the subs) couldn't be found using MAD - Magnetic Anomaly Detection during ASW operations....

Basicly a sub sized hull made of steel will make small changes in the Earths magnetic lines of flux...

Now bolts...For non-critical applications I like to use AN bolts...you can get many lengths, just enough thread to engage the nut and a few washers, stronger then Gr 5 but not as brittle as Gr 8 bolts and lastly they can be bought pre-drilled in the head or shank for safety wiring...

Of course being a A&P Mechanic I'm a little biased towards them...:)

[cixelsyd]

Just a tid bit on off-topic Ti information. . .the Russians also had the great idea to use titanium as the hull material for their Akula class submarines (which were faster than our torpedo's. . .but at a price. . .they were fast because they were light partly due to the Ti hull) these subs were severely limited in how deep they could go because the Ti hulls didn't cope well with the cyclic stresses of submersing deep and surfacing repeatedly. . .each time the Akula went to "test" depth the boat would get a new, shallower test depth for the next dive because the hull had just been weakened and would crack if it went to the same depth too many times. . .

. . .the other reason the Akula was light was because they didn't have much (if any) shielding for the crew to protect them from the radiation produced by the nuclear reactor. . .the solution was to rotate the crew for short periods very often to attempt to keep them from getting radiation protection. . .

. . .I'm glad I live in the good 'ol US of A!

Akulas are not faster than our torpedos. It can achieve a submerged top speed of 33 - 35 kts while a MK48 ADCAP torpedo can achieve a top speed of 60 kts. The Akula was the Russian counterpart of the 688(i).

[loufish]

688(i).

Los Angeles Class?

[cixelsyd]

Los Angeles Class?

That would be the one.