Front Arm Bushings

[mike_hinson]

Does everyone use the stock inner bushings on your front ends, or is there another trick material that is used. I have the Delrin outers, but need to know about the inners. Thanks in advance for the help. Mike Hinson-Bakersfield

[Cameron]

Mike, I use the one piece delrin bushings on my car.They replace both the inner and outer bushings.
They seam to wear good and work just fine. I did have the urathane outers and stock inners for a
short time but the urathane bushings didn't hold up to well.

<font color=red>Cameron</font color=red>
<font color=yellow>BRAT Racing # 936</font color=yellow>

[mike_hinson]

Are your one piece Delrin bushings full length, like the red urethane ones? I just have the short outer delrin bushings and am using the stock inner bushings. Where do I get the full length delrin units? Thanks for the help. Mike

[TimHayosh]

I got my Delrins from Kartek. I think the brand name was Saco. I had "Prothane" (Urethane) when I bought the car, but everyone said the Delrins were better. I can't tell the difference. The Delrin does seem to wear well. I think the upper is one piece, and the lower is two pieces (or vice versa).

[mike_hinson]

Thanks for the info. I'll call today and order them.

[Cameron]

Mike,
I got mine from German Auto in Santa Fe Springs, ca. 562-863-1123.
I may be wrong, but I believe they manufacure the SACO products.
Good Luck.

<font color=red>Cameron</font color=red>
<font color=yellow>BRAT Racing # 936</font color=yellow>

[mike_hinson]

Thanks for the info. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Building one of these from scratch takes some digging to find all the right parts. Mike

[Protech975]

Mike
I used to use the full stock setup " Neddle Bearings and Mycarta bushings"
but they would not take a whole lot of abuse, and when I found a new codriver that wanted to drive my car like a 1600 and average 45 MPH we had to make a change. So I now use the Delrin full length bushings for both Upper and Lower arms and they seem to hold up pretty well but we still have to change them about every 3 or 4 races. You can get them from Kartek or McKenzies or German Auto,
and Joel Mohr at Mohr Performance in Heseria sells them also but they are not Delrins but a new fangled "Biogenetic radioactive Polly???" Material that he says works pretty well. Good luck with the new car and hope to see you in Barstow in Nov, We really need to start hyping this MORE/SNORE race as it has the potential to be a real big Race for us 9 guys! Rob Stapp #975 Barstow

[TimHayosh]

Biogenetic radioactive Polly????????
I am loving that!!!!!!!!!
Can't get 'em at Kartek, gotta go to the Nuclear Regulatory Committee!

BTW: A tip on the Saco Delrins: There are 3 dimples spaced 120* apart in the upper beam. The first time I tried to install them, I thought I had the wrong part. They would not go all the way in. Then I realized what was up. I took a hammer and LIGHTLY tapped on the bushing. This left an indentation on the end of the bushing at the dimples. I used a grinder to bevel the bushing at these 3 points. Then, installation was possible. Maybe this is a bad practice. If somebody knows more about this, please post in here!

[Protech975]

Mike
The first time I installed a set of Delrins I noticed the same thing about the upper sleeves, but I was told by " Prof. Source" that this was OK and NOT to adjust the bushing so that they slip over the dimples. If you do the bushing will be to far in and will through off the camber angle! and bind the balljoint. So I have just been putting a large thick O-ring over the arm and slip it into the slot at the end of the bushing to take up the space, it does not do much but keep the dirt out and look better. If this is a bunch of bunk then I hope someone will let us know and I will start notching mine as well! Rob. #975

[mike_hinson]

Makes me wonder if there is undue stress put on the torsion leaves if the bushings are not fully seated. The leaves have to get shorter as they twist when you hit a bump. Maybe the O ring compresses enough so that the leaves are not stretched. If they do stretch, is it a problem? What are other 9 drivers opinions? Let us know. By the way, German Auto said they would complete their production run of new bushings next week and be able to fill their back orders. Mike

[Cameron]

A little tip if you are relocating the grease fittings on the beam. Mark the bushings with the fittings out,
then remove the bushings and drill a hole in the bushing were the fitting would be. Then you know the
grease is getting to the arm. We did this because the first time we pulled the arms out they had very
little grease on them. Now when we pll the arms they seam to have plenty of grease.

<font color=red>Cameron</font color=red>
<font color=yellow>BRAT Racing # 936</font color=yellow>

[Protech975]

Mike
I forgot to mention that another reason you can not fully seat the upper Delrins is because with the bushing fully seated the Grub Screw hole in the leaf springs will not line up and when you go to tighten the arm grub it will just push the arm back out to were it was before you notched your bushings!
Why they designed them this way" Who knows" I thought that maybe there was a slightly wider beam being produced somewhere and these would fit as well?
As far as the springs getting shorter that would be so miniscule that it would not make any differance, I have always run stock springs and have never broken one yet. Rob Stapp #975

[mike_hinson]

Well here I go again. I just tried to install my new Delrin bushings from German Auto (SACO). As Tim mentioned in a previous post, the new one piece upper bushing hit the three dimples before bottoming out. Rob, you said that you put a large "O" ring on the bushing to take up the slack, instead of notching out the ends of the bushing. Can you explain to me how seating the bushings in another 1/8" or so can make the camber angle off. I haven't put them in, but I thought the top arm would crush or split the end of the bushing if it's not seated all the way in when I install the allen set screws.

I thought that the arms would still be at the correct distance from center due to the set screws at the end of the torsion leaves. I can't understand why they made the delrins a little too long, unless they also fit some other application. Looks like I will hunt down some "O" rings in the morning. I hope I have explained this clearly. I appreciate all the help from the Class 9 group.

Another question. What are the different teams using for front torsion leaves. Should I go out and buy a set of SAW leaves, or are the stock ones OK? if you use aftermarket leaves, do you use top and bottom, bottom only, or top only? Please let me know what you suggest I use to gert started.

[Protech975]

Mike
Great to hear you have not gone bonkers and given up yet!
As for the Delrin bushings as I mentioned before if you slip the uppers in all the way until they seat against the beam, then they will be to far in and the grub screw hole in the leaf springs "which can not change! will not line up properly. they will be 1/8 to far in the arm and when you go to tighten the grub screw it will just realign itself and push the arm back out an 1/8. You can not shorten this distance between the grub holes so actually you could never get them to far in enough to through off the camber angle anyway. But as the upper arm pulls in the camber angle changes becouse the balljoint and essentric bushing follow it. that is why there is an essentric bushing that allows us to offset any discrpency in the angle of the arms and spindle. there is a large enough sholder on the bushings to support the arm and not damage it. so dont worry about cracking it.
Also the front leaf springs are a real matter of choice but I will share with you my 10 + years of experience with balljoint front-ends, We have tried many different combonations of springs over the years and have concluded that the best setup "BY FAR" has been bone stock springs upper and lower becouse the SWs are just to stiff for just about any 9 car setup. The one thing that you will need to add to this is to cut and rotate your upper beam about 1/8 to 1/4 in. This all depends on your car and if you have a 1 or 2 seater and how the weight is distributed front to back.
My thiery is that if the front-end is not working freely and you are not getting total travel then you are not going to be able to get the best and fastest ride you can. A stiff front-end will through off the entire handeling of the car as well as beat the snot out of the driver and parts.
Well hope I did not totaly confuse you, If I can be of any other help to you don,t hesitate to ask.
Rob Stapp #975

[mike_hinson]

I got the "O" rings this morning from a local hose supply shop. I'll install them tonight and let you know how it works. Thanks for the help, Mike

[Protech975]

Mike
Are you still planning on running the SNORE race here in Barstow in Nov.?
Just a couple of extra notes on setting up your front-end, After you have everything together and you go out and test run, I call this beating in the new parts. when you get back retighten the ball joints and then double nut them with either 2 stock nuts or a jam nut from the hardware store then don't touch them again until post race. also check your wheel bearings for snug and silicone or shoegoo all the brake springs in place.
What kind of shock set up are you using? and springs?
I do not remember if you said your car was brand new or a rebuild so all of this stuff will take some time to set up and test and retest. and a couple of races under your belt will tell you if you are close to perfection if there is such a thing. TTYS Rob S. #975

[rdc]

the bushings have nothing to do with caster or angle once your set screws on your arms are tight
they cannot move, the ecentric adjusts your camber, sometimes when your center is rotated and
re-welded it can be off to one side or the other and you could possibly have to trim one bushing if
your arm will not go on all the way. by the way the delrins are by far the better bushing (or just
say the white one's when you order them)

[TimHayosh]

Sadrace is one of the best in the business. Take what he says as gospel. He has helped me with other issues and has always been right.

Rob's advice about re-torquing is 100% on the money too.

BTW: Sadrace, I am looking at your lap times from last years Snowflake...Can't figure out how Jojo beat you! You had Class fast lap, followed by some more burners. 2 seconds is one of the closest margains I have ever heard of. I'd sure love to bust out a couple of 33 minute laps!

[mike_hinson]

Thanks for all the help. I installed the bushings last night with o-rings and everything fit perfectly. Without all the input I would probably still be in the garage scratching my head. I will re-tighten and double nut after testing. Good info. Mike

[mike_hinson]

Rob,
Car is new. #8 of 8 in the Joel Mohr/Dave Lawson Suspensions Ultd series. I am using SAW Racerunner rear shocks ordered through Raceshock. 14" body, 10" rod with large reseviors. Fronts are Fox standard Class 9 units also from Raceshock. I used 28MM 300M SAW intermediate bars in the rear and stock leaves in the front. I am hoping to get the car ready for the Nov race if the money holds out. Still have some parts to buy. Mike

[rdc]

hey tim it's not hard to blow a race, dial in a new motor, stop for an unneeded pit stop for fuel
old motor got 10 mpg new motor got 14 mpg, drive 2 1/2 laps without parker pumper in a very
dusty race, stop 10 feet before the finish line because the car in front of you stopped ( they
don't stop your time until you actually cross the line). jojo ran a good race with no problems, he
is alot of fun to race with. good luck at snowflake

[mike_hinson]

From the response to my front end bushing question, looks like notching or not notching the uppers to clear the dimples doesn't have any effect on the camber/castor angles. Looks like either way works well. I went ahead and used the o-rings just to make it easier. Pushed the bushing in and then slid the o-ring over the tube. Next I took a hammer and lightly tapped the bushing in the rest of the way. After a installed the arms I could find no binding of any sort. I appreciate all the response to my question. I feel this is a great way to get dialog going in the 9 community, promote our class, and share information. Thanks again, Mike Hinson-Bakersfield

[rdc]

mike,
send your front shocks (fox) to lothringer and tell kent to put his bypass sleeve on them i think
he charges about 40 bucks a shock it will make that shock work far better than what you
currently have and they will run cooler, it's not a true by pass so it is legal but it works

[mike_hinson]

I called Kent today and asked about his shock mods. He says he can do both the fronts and the rears. Cost is $125 per shock which includes re-plating. Thanks for the info. Mike

[rdc]

mike,
i wouldn't do the rears they work awsome but they heat up and fade too fast, are great for a
grand prix or something but not a long race just revalve your new fox's if that is what your
using. lothringer is pretty good at setting that up as are alot of guys but they will need some
information about your car as a starting point and then you can make the proper adjustments
from there. rear suspension is much more difficult to set up than the front
guess i was wrong on the price, sorry about that

[mike_hinson]

Thanks for sharing info with the 9 community. This forum is a way to find out what works and what doesn't. Thanks again, Mike

[TimHayosh]

As a result of the lower arm coming out of my beam at Snowflake, I will be replacing my front beam. This is a part that has been on the car since '96. I will document the change from VW junkyard part to Class 9 racing part. This will include my installation of SaCo Delrin bushings. I ordered the parts today and will be doing the work over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully, this will give those who are unfamiliar with the whole beam/bushing discussion a chance to understand and draw their own conclusions. Although I like the 'O' ring idea and think it is a perfectly valid way of doing things, I will be using the "notch/ramp" method.

Stay tuned.

[mike_hinson]

Tim,
When documenting your front beam replacement, please show how you set up the steering box to eliminate as much bump steer as possible. Use lots of pictures for people like me. Thanks, Mike

[TimHayosh]

...please show how you set up the steering box to eliminate as much bump steer as possible...

Uhhhh.

I use a Wright Rack and Pinion. I know of no adjustment to eliminate bump steer. The tie rods are only at a slight angle from horizontal statically. Maybe this is what you mean. To eliminate the most vicious effects of bump steer, I just keep my thumbs outside the steering wheel spokes.

There is a steering stabilizer installed, but it looks like the damper found on the hatchback of an '83 Mazda GLC! I dont think it does anything!

The project won't get started 'till next week.

Cheers, Tim

[Protech975]

Tim
You are totaly right about the bump steer, the angle of the Rack mount and tie rods are what determine the amount you have or don't. We have on our Car a rack mount that is mounted very high on the beam and at about a 30.o angle, this is to facilitate the steering shaft which looks like a pretzel!
because of this we have horrible bump steer which at its upper most travel is at about 1.5 in Toe-In.
Not a recommended set up for sure.
What I would really like to see you also address is the set up of the upper and lower stops on your new arms and the placement of the pin in the beam! Many different ideas are being used as to the best way to set up these parts and the paramiters used to place them ie, Shock travel, balljoint angle, exc. I have even seen guys that actually grind out the balljoint cup in order to increase travel! Thanks for your help and looking forward to your new fix pix. Rob S. #975

[mike_hinson]

Tim,
What I meant to say when asking about how to set up the rack is how you go about setting up the angle of the box, height off the beam, mounting bracket selection, etc. in order to reduce bump steer. I was looking for the steps you will take to position the rack on the beam to minimize bump steer and of course pictures. As Rob stated, I also think info on setting up the stops and ball joints will be helpful to rookies like me. Thanks, Mike

[TimHayosh]

Guys, I got the package from Kartek today. Enclosed were the SaCo Delrin bushings, Stop Pins, stop hooks, and the rack mounting bracket(s). Since you asked specifically about the selection of the rack bracket, I'll address it now. What they sent me were 2 identical pieces the look similar to light mounting tabs with bends on the sides, almost like wings. I will be promptly sending this back to them. What I will be using is a one piece item. I have never even seen the things they sent. I do not consider them to be "race-quality". Although they are made of chromoly, they were poorly fabricated and left large gaps that would require a great deal of time and skill to grind to the right fit. I have neither the time nor the skill nor the inclination to spent my time altering these pieces to fit. The one piece unit appears to be far more structurally sound. Not to mention I only have to set up the angle once. Maybe some other people have had great success with this mount, but I will not even try.

As for the angle, I will probably cheat. I will level the car, then record the angle with my digital level. I will then reproduce the angle when installing the new piece.

The set up of the stop hooks is something I have already taken pictures of (for a piece about set-up), but never published. I have also lost track of the tape those pix are on. So, I will re-do that.

I am heartened to see such interest in this stuff. I didn't think a lot of people were that intereseted in the finer points. Please remember,I AM NOT AN EXPERT! This will be the first beam I have ever replaced. Mistakes will be made. I will publish my experience as a guide to all who may wish to learn from my (first time) experience.

Cheers, Tim

[mike_hinson]

Tim,
Just remember, 9 cars rule.

There are those of us out here in webland that are very interested in the technical aspects of these fine race cars. I for one used to be afraid to ask questions for fear that I might look stupid. This forum has made it easy to ask those questions. I really appreciate the dialog that is starting to take place around our cars. You have stepped up to the plate and hit a home run with your efforts around this forum and the Formulanine website. Keep up the good work. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

As for the front end setup, just documenting what you have done and sharing the information goes a long way in answering questions that we may have, plus it will trigger additional dialog around Class 9, which is a good thing.

Looking forward to your documentation and pics,
Mike

[Protech975]

Tim
McKenzies has the rack mount you are looking for, and it is a onepiece heavy unit that will fit your beam like a glove, not sure who actually makes them, Joel Mohr also has a couple of different styles that are race ready.
None of us are Pro's at this, and we all make mistakes. I made one in our last race that cost me not only the race but my first ever DNF, I forgot to check the lower stops on the spring plates and 100 miles into the race the axles were traveling slightly to far down and began to hit the retaining coller on the Diff and eventually broke the set screw which allowed the coller to walk out enough to let the side gear pull away from the spiders. LESSON always check your stops! Because less than an 1/8 in. translates to nearly an inch of travel at the axle. Check both the Plate where it contacts the stop as well as the stop surface itself. I have measurments that I check between the spring plate and the upper shock mount that will tell me if this has changed but forgot to check and it bit me! Rob S.

[FormulaNine]

The fun has begun....<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.formulanine.com/beam.htm>Click here for the carnage!</A>.

F9

[mike_hinson]

Looking good. I purchased the same steering box mount from Joel Mohr. Keep us posted on your progress. By the way, I finally got my digital level. It was worth every penny. Mike

[racer951]

Anyone else use Bronze bushings up front? Some of the older topics on this board are pretty interesting and in depth technically for newbies like me.

[TimHayosh]

Holy Smokes this is an old thread!!!!!
(I don't know of anyone using bronze.)

[racer951]

haha yeah it is old tim. I was asking my old man about delrin and he said you can't weld on the front end with them end, they melt too easily, so he had a friend of ours who has since passed away make bronze bushings. They are pretty badass with all the grooves and such in them.

[Protech975]

Two years later! WOW... Nice too see that everyone is still alive! - L8r Rob Stapp