4x4 ibeams

[boltonbros]

hey i haven't seen much 4x4 ibeam trucks and i thought that if any one has pictures they could display them. i am bulding a 4x4 ranger right now and i could use some ideas. i will display some pics of the truck soon. ok thanks

[jeff]

Not to hi-jack but.... please post full-size beams too if you've got them http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Aloha

[silverstateracer]

Did you check out the beams on Autofabs websight? Saving some change up for a pair myself.

http://www.autofab.com/m35kit1_12-18-98_11_45_AM.JPG

[SDranger]

Here's mine...stock length
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~rubesh/TRKS008.JPG

If you wanna go all out these camburg ones are sick!
http://www.camburg.com/old/images/4x4rangerbeam.jpg

Also check out the october? Off-road there is a 4x4 ranger from prep by jake. very nice

[In_the_works]

Solo motorsports has some decent looking trussed and extended TTb's on their site, not quite as built as Camburg's, but probably a bit cheaper.

[boltonbros]

i don't need to know where to get them. i already have them built but, i would like to see some beams on some trucks. thanks

[TrucksR4Girls]

<font color="red"> Yeah I work at autofab, weve got tons of them just waiting to get sold, and they work great! </font color>

[boltonbros]

here are some beams

[boltonbros]

another

[Solo1469]

I know this post is a little old but now that I have an account here are some pics of the Solo Motorsports TTB. We also carry TTB for the Full-size Bronco and will use a uni-ball insted of the bushing upon request.

[Solo1469]

another

[Solo1469]

again

[Solo1469]

more

[Solo1469]

This is the short beam with a mono-ball.

[baja619]

looking very nice, how much time do you have invested at the time of the pics

[Solo1469]

If your tlking about how long it take to make a set. Probably about a day and a half. Thats does not including the finding, disassembling, and sand blasting of the beams.

[jeff]

How much for a set of equal length 4x4 beams?

Aloha

[Kritter]

Well you got 1.5 days labor which is about $750 and about $300 in beams, cups, plate and sand blasting.

Hows $1050 sound?

Whens that Bronco gonna be ready? Take it over to Domburg...he'll bang it out lickity split for ya...

[mxmobber29]

i know bobby from solo did a set of 7" over 4x4 beams with the uniball option for my buddy and the pictures dont even do justice for the TIG welded beauties! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[grantdcol]

[ QUOTE ]
How much for a set of equal length 4x4 beams?

Aloha

[/ QUOTE ]
Because TTBs have the differential built into the driver's side beam, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build true "equal length" beams. The passenger side beam pivot must be inward of the differential. The natural thought is to extend the driver's side beam to move the differential outward, but if you do that, the differential housing hits the frail rail, severley limiting uptravel, and the driveshaft doesn't line up.

Solo - the extended D35 TTBs look good, what are you doing for axles? Cost?

-Colin

[jeff]

Colin,

Here's what I did on mine... I slightly notched the driver side frame rail (reinforced it afterward) and removed some unnecessary material from the 3rd member. I removed about 3/8" of material from a rib and this gave me a good 3/4" of clearance at the frame rail when the beam is at full compression. I also extended the driver side beam approximately 1" on the inside (between pivot point and diff) to move the center section over that same amount. With that setup the entire beam tucks up very high. As the length of the passenger side beam gets longer (new pivot points) it gets a little easier to make it clear the axle shafts and align up as it swings.

Aloha

[grantdcol]

Jeff, sounds really nice. Any pictures?

Lengthening the passenger beam between the axle window and the pivot would really clean up the angles and clearance on the axle like you say.

What are you doing for axles? I'm assuming you're running the stock driver's side short shaft and center shaft if you only lengthend the inside portion of the beams. What did you use for the passenger side axle? I know F-150 TTB axles use the same spline, but the passenger axle is somthing like 5.75" longer I believe. I'd like to use an oem part if possible, for the cost savings as well as the ability to easily get a replacement. Any ideas? Thanks

-Colin

[picone]

Call me after the B1K and I can get you axles at a pretty good price.
949-735-7666.

[partybarge_pilot]

Going way back, there was a TTB set-up in the rock busters video that had the p-side beam pivot in front for eaqual lenght beams and 4X. That would be the best way to go.

[murphco]

one of the rough riders class four trucks ran equal length ttb,its not imposible so shut up.ill find some pics.

[Steve_HKmtrsprts]

Dont forget the Camburg beams as another option or the only one. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif
They come with a front truss from end to end and a lower rock gaurd truss on the front of the beam.
http://www.camburg.com/images/Ranger/Beams/custombeams4x4.jpg

[grantdcol]

Yeah, those are beautiful. But Camburg indicates custom axles run $2000. I'm just curious if anybody has found solutions with OEM axles; maybe from a different vehicle. If you break an axle, it's nice to be able to find a replacement at a junkyard.

[tedmales]

if i understand right, most of the companies sell stock width bent 4x4 beams. the widened ones use custom axles. i thought it seemed to good to be true. they say they get 15+ inches of travel and have 4x4. sounds like the way to go for a prerunner.

[Jerry Zaiden]

We got around 22" out of this 4x4 set up.

http://www.camburg.com/images/extremetrucks/ExtremeExplorer/Powdercoat/PassSuspensionFront.jpg

[Jerry Zaiden]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, those are beautiful. But Camburg indicates custom axles run $2000. I'm just curious if anybody has found solutions with OEM axles; maybe from a different vehicle. If you break an axle, it's nice to be able to find a replacement at a junkyard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes to do the axles high end they will run this much. You can do them for less but we will not do them this way. You can call many axles Co's and they will build them many different ways. We found the way to go is all custom 300 m parts in the system, axles, u joints etc. it just gets expensive to do it high end.

[John_Bitting]

After the 1000, I am sure Chris Wilson can chime in. He races a 4x4 TTB setup with I want to say spliced and lengthened stock axles and has yet to break one. I could be wrong though.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Now that would be the very inexpensive way to do it http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/smile.gif
we just make the beams!

[Solo1469]

We have extended the stock axles and it seems to work fine. We have found companies that will make custom axles but we haven’t had anyone willing to spend the money on them. On the vehicles that we have extended the stock axles we haven’t had any complaints. In fact we have two Explores here at Solo that are our prerunners/ part runners with the extended axels which I have used the four wheel drive on with no problem.

[4x4x]

that would be sweet...

SOLO-how much is a set of your widened 4x4 beams with uniball and modified shafts? I still want to go wider one of these days. I think I've asked before but I forgot. Is everything clearanced/ported already? U-joints hold up ok without maxing out and blowin caps? thanks.

[Solo1469]

To quote the Administration “Commercial posting belong in the "industry News" section only. It's free of charge to post there. Ask for access and it shall be given to you. Some of our sponsors are also participating in the daily posting. Those sponsors are graced slightly more slack on plugging their own products and services online. They pay for it. Violators will be banned. We consider any other website other then our own commercial and the same rules apply.” I just became a member of the DezertPeople and I don’t feel like getting banned quite yet so if you want prices call Solo at 626-815-1430… Thanks for understanding. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[4x4x]

PM'd you

[steveG]

Well, I may as well throw in my thoughts.... This is how I had planned on doing the D35 on my Explorer until I decided to ditch the D35. As a lot of you may know, the D44 &amp; D35 TTB's use the same u-joints. The spline on the slip yoke is also the same. If you compare the axle shafts that slide into the slip yoke, the D44 version is (roughly) 4.5" longer. So, why not extend both sides 4.5 " &amp; you only have to have one custom axle-the driver side between the diff and the hub. You may not be able to get 22" of travel, but 18" or 19" is very possible &amp; very respectable especially when coupled with the added width. As for whether or not the stock D44/fullsize axle is strong enough? It seems to be strong enough for stock width F150/Bronco TTB's that many of us have seen take lots of punishment. Besides, the weak link in the D35 front axles is going to be where they taper down in diameter inside the differential.

[picone]

Colin:

The D44 axles have a different spline on into the diff on the driver side beam/ In theory, you could use the pass side axle if you measure it exactly but it is difficult to do. If you are goint to put that much work into the beams, swap out the D35 gear with the D44 Hubs, snouts..... The pic attached is a set of beams for KD that are 5" wider with the D44 gear. The the clearance is EXTREMELY tight on the passenger side axle (about 1/16" thru the range of travel), mostly due to the limitations on the slip yoke. The axles aren't cheap but you can get chromolly axles for about $800-$1200 depending on Chromolly grade. This set up does cycle every bit of 22" but for this truck is will probably be limited to about 16-18". If you need some help PM and I will see what I can do.

Dom

[steveG]

So maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not following the whole measuring axle shaft lengths being difficult. Although it's been a while, when I measured the two (D35 vs D44) I simply laid them next to eachother &amp; measured away. The difference in length is what I had planned on extending the beams. It seems to me if you're going to be extending beams or axles, you're going to be doing a lot of measuring that needs to be accurate. Why not use a readily available axle shaft so that you only have to have one custom made? The beams in the pic are a perfect example. If they had been extended a 1/2" less per side, only one custom axle shaft would have been needed (between the diff and the driver hub). By the way, I'm not trying to knock anyone or their work, just trying to throw some money-saving ideas out there....

[picone]

Like I said before, it can be done for the one axle but there were other reasons I opt'd not to do it. Don't forget that you also have to account for the camber adjustment and different offset of the D44 running gear. It can be done, but if you want to use your setup to it's maximum potential it is every bit of +/- 1/16" in axle shaft length. I don't really like the idea of using a stock ford axle on the pivot side with a high grade custom shaft on the other side. In addition, if the beams were 1/2" shorter, the firewall would have to be reworked. The cost of that and the effort to make a beam around a stock axle doesn't justify not spending the $4-600 to make a high quality axle that's better than the stock ford one. It will work steve, but you're going to spend a lot of time trying to make it work unless you just want to give it a shot and then limit the travel to make it work.

[Rufrider]

SOLO I PM'ED YOU.

[grantdcol]

I'm not following you on the firewall modification. Steve is saying that by extending the beams 4.5" per side instead of 5", and retaining the D35 kunckle + hub, you can use a stock D44 TTB passenger side shaft from the slip joint to the u-joint since it is 4.5" longer than the D35 shaft. Then you just need a custom axle for the driver's side that is 4.5" longer.

Of course the ideal way is to extend the ends of the beams, but another way to do it would be to extend both beams up near the pivot point like Jeff did. I've seen it done a couple times, but only 1.5" per side with a custom passenger side axle which is 3" longer than stock. If you extended both sides 2.25" in this fashion, then it seems you could use just the D44 passenger axle from the slip joint to the passenger u-joint.

What do you guys think?

-Colin

[Mintychip]

Has anyone put a d44 beam on a ranger/explorer before? If not, why not?

[steveG]

I'm pretty sure that's what Perry's does, but you end up losing a few inches of bump travel on the driver side. Their TTB's I've seen in action seem to work fairly well, but they also sit a little high.

Minty, I'm working on getting one done right now. Jerry Penhall used to have a D44 TTB on a Ranger. The housings are larger &amp; it takes some work to make it fit at full bump &amp; not limit the hell out of bump travel, but it can be done. It's debatable whether or not its worth the work. I like it because I'm going to be able to use stock(F150/D44) housings and stock axles. The way I look at it is it may be more work to make it fit &amp; work, but it's no more work than extending beams &amp; axles.

[grantdcol]

Plus you'll have full size brakes and larger wheel bearing spacing. That's a nice option if you don't mind switching to a bigger bolt pattern.
Are you going to be able to make the D44 differential bulge tuck inside the frame rail on the driver's side? Doing that, how much wider will the front be?

[steveG]

grantdcol, the way I'm setting up my pivot brackets it'll end up being 3.75" wider per side. As far as making the diff housing tuck into the frame, it's a little tricky &amp; will require removing some material from the frame, but there is just enough room to make it work. Also, I'm using a 2" drop bracket similar to the one's Ford put on the 87-88 STX Rangers, so because I'm dropping the pivot end, at full bump it raises the wheel end giving me more bump travel as opposed to stock pivot brakets.

[grantdcol]

Steve, do you happen to know/remember the exact length of the passenger side intermediate axle on the D44? I measured a spare D35 I have and it's just under 20 inches from the end of the spline to the center of the hole in the yoke. I've read elsewhere that the D44 from an F150 is 24.98" - 5 inches longer measured the same way. Can you confirm that? Thanks

-Colin

[steveG]

24.75" is what I got with a measuring tape on the one I have here in the shop. I should have my front end done in the next month or two. When it's finished I'll post pics. I'm currently having someone else do most of the fab work as I decided to change the way I'm setting it up &amp; scrapped what I had done &amp; started over with modified axle pivot points. If it all comes together the way we're hoping, I won't have to use any custom axles.

[JBO]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have my front end done in the next month or two.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can I quote you on that?

[grantdcol]

Did you measure from the end of the splines to the center of the hole in the yoke? Somebody on another board is now telling me they have two axles, one is from a D44HD which is 24.5" from splines to center of yoke hole but I'm not sure if it has the 297 u-joints, the other is from an 80s bronco and it's 25.5". The stock ranger axle is just under 20". So I would like to use your idea of extending the 35 4.5" per side with a custom axle for the driver's side only if I can figure out which vehicles have a 24.5" axle with 297 u-joint.

By the way, thanks for all of your helpful reponses.

-Colin

[jeff]

I've got the axles out of my 1983 Bronco - if you can wait a day or two I can measure all of them - with pictures. The entire front end is apart and it'd be easy to measure right now.

Aloha

[steveG]

Thanks for the vote of confidence JBO, LOL.
Yes you can qoute me on that. I have a few months before the SF250 & I want to have my car at least partially done a couple months before so I have time to work out any bugs. Also, since I don't have enough on my plate, I'm putting a motor, transmission & transfer case in my Explorer-take that!

I suppose I can measure with pics too if it'll help. I'll try to take some pics tomorrow at work.
EDIT: By the way, my D44 front end is out of an 82 Bronco.

[clarke]

this is the 4x4 setup weve been working on. kinda old pics though

[steveG]

Clarke, have you had a chance to cycle the front end with the axles installed?

BTW, I forgot to bring my camera to work, I'll try to take measurement pics tomorrow.

[grantdcol]

Picked up a passenger side intermediate shaft yesterday after going to the RaceReady 275 this weekend with West Racing. They own West Auto Wrecking and were really helpful in finding the axle I needed. It's out of an '84 bronco D44 TTB, 4.5" longer than my D35 version, and looks to have the same spline count and u-joints. So I hope to start cutting beams this week.

Now looking into cut/sleeving my stock driver's side or getting custom axle made. Mike of ESB posted on another board that he hasn't had luck in sleeving toyota axles for extended a-arms. Has anybody had luck with ranger axles? Do toyota shafts perhaps act as torsion bars, similar to some VWs, more so than ranger shafts? I would be extending the thickest portion of the axle, leaving the necked-down portion alone and not subjected to heat.

Again, thanks for the help everybody, you're advice is very valuable.

[steveG]

Sorry about never posting those pics, I guess it's not necessary now. It sounds like you got the same length axle that I have in my D44 front end. Here's an idea for the axle on the driver side: Take the D35 axle that you're going to replace with the D44 axle and have it shortened & splined. It should have more than enough material to turn down to the dimensions you need & if I remember right it's more than long enough...just a thought.

[grantdcol]

Well I've been working on my beams for 3 days straight now. I had been expecting it to be difficult, but as usual I ran into problems I didn't forsee.

1. When both beams are drooped out, the slip joint bottoms out. I knew this would be the limiting factor, but it happened earlier than I expected.

2. They're stupid wide. 80" track width with 31s using the junkyard axle.

3. I had to use an extreme alighnment cam to get the camber right and use the stock pivot point.

4. Using the stock pivots limits up travel. When I had drop-brackets, at full compression, the beam angled up so the beam end was above the frame rail. With stock pivots, the beam barely goes past horizontal when it hits the stock bump stop. Cutting and turning should help this, but it may worsen the slip joint bottoming out problem.

So in order to gain down travel, I'm going to have to use a shorter passenger side shaft, the junkyard one is too long. Looks like I can have it shortened and resplined to use on my driver's side for $80 though.

Steve - I checked out having the stock D35 passenger side shaft resplined to make an extended version of the driver side. Unfortunately it won't work. The major diameter of the splines that enter the differential is larger than the diameter of the passenger side shaft at the point where I would need the splines.

To get the camber right, I have four options:

1. Re-use drop pivot brackets (3").

2. Rotate the beam end up (requires that it is rotated around the correct point, such that the driver side shaft doesn't bind in the side gear).

3. Extend the lower ball joint.

4. Cut and turn the upper portion of the beams.

I've been taking a look at what other manufacturers are doing (see pictures). It looks like Autofab extends the lower ball joint to correct camber. Camburg's stock width "Cut and Turned" beams which look like they're cut and turned and also have the lower ball joint moved out - not sure. From an earlier post and pictures on their website, the Camburg extended beams look like neither was done.

Like I said above, the beam barely goes past horizontal in uptravel when it hits the stock bumpstop, so I'm inclined to cut and turn the upper portion of the beams so that they angle past the frame a little more at bump, and also to correct camber.

Thoughts?

-Colin

[steveG]

Wow, sounds like you got a lot done! Where are the pics???


First off, definitely use a drop bracket. If you look around at the kits out there, the ones with stock pivot brackets have 12" of travel & the ones with drop brackets have 16" of travel. My Autofab kit came with custom drop brackets designed to match the dimensions of those offered on 87-88 STX 4wd Rangers. They have a 2" drop & gain you additional bump and droop. They also help so that you don't have to modify the beam as much to correct camber-Autofab does move the lower ball joint outboard to correct camber. All the bad ass(IMO) 4wd Rangers and Explorers I've seen use STX style pivot brackets. If I was you, I'd take the 3" drop brackets you have & drill a pivot hole in them at 2" of drop & play with that. I'd also move the new pivot holes a 1/4" inboard wich would move the beams apart a total of a 1/2." The 2" Drop bracket in addition to the extra spacing will probably net you a minimum of 4" of additional droop travel. If your feel like the slip joint is still bottoming too soon, trim a little material off the splined end of the driveshaft. I believe I'm going to have to trim around 3/8" off the axle in my front end. I think removing this much off the splines still leaves enough to keep them strong enough to survive....

Instead of modifying the beams for camber, consider lowering ride height. With all that extra width and using a 2" pivot bracket, you should be able to set it up with 3-4" of lift with a stock beam end. Even with only 3" of lift you should still get around 8" of bump travel on the driver beam...just a thought.

I think I addressed everything you posted, let me know if I didn't & good luck, I can't wait to see how it turns out!

[JBO]

I have the autofab dana 35 kit steve spoke of...with the lower pivot points...and good lord do I have a lot of bump travel. So much I can't even clear my 32 inch tires at full bump (I'm gonna have to get out the sledge hammer) so much for stepping up to 33's.
I'm not an expert...but I would definitely look into finding some of the STX style pivot brackets.

[grantdcol]

Well things got a little better since my last post.

I was all ready to cut a notch in my beams, angle the pivot up, and cycle away. But first I welded short pieces of box to the pivot end and drilled a hole so that it approximated where the pivot would be after being cut and turned. I mocked the passenger side beam up and found there was very little additional bump travel. I'm sure there would be lots more slip joint movement.

I can't re-drill my existing drop pivot brackets for a 2" drop because the way they are manufactured leaves no clearance for the beam pivot above the existing hole. But I'm going to build my own in the near future. I think I can triangulate the driver's side drop pivot to the frame pretty easily. At a RECORD race I was checking out Perry's 4x4 explorer. They triangulated the passenger pivot bracket to the frame as well.

Right now I have the beams in the stock pivot locations, temporarily extended 4" per side. I cut my stock inner shafts and temporarily lengthened them with some small box. I extended the driver's side 4" and the passenger 3.5". This is working pretty well, the limiting factor on droop is now the angle of the center u-joint instead of the splined section bottoming out. At full horizontal, the splines don't come out of the slip joint, and as the beams move even farther up (down the line, with drop brackets), the joint should start to compress again as they move toward full bump.

I'll need to port the passenger axle window for when the passenger side is drooped out and the driver side is level or above.

Steve- you'll definately be able to cut 3/8" off your splined end. I actually started with a 25" junkyard shaft (measured it wrong) so I cut 1/2" off to make it 24.5" and used it with 5" wider beams. The splines still smoothly slid in the slip joint, with no binding. The slip joint splined section is bigger than any of the other splined sections in the system, plus it's used on fullsize vehicles.

The plan now is to keep the beams 4" wider per side and use 2" drop pivots. I'll be able to have the junkyard axle I bought resplined to make a driver side shaft, and I'll still only need one custom shaft - for the passenger side. I'm thinking of sleeving it with DOM for now, we'll see.

I've got lots of pictures, but have to go to work to offload them. Will post them tomorrow.

-Colin

[grantdcol]

Holidays came up and I didn't get around to posting those pictures until now.

In order of pictures:

1. I used the stock radius arm bolt holes to create a reference line, which I measured off of to choose the point to cut the beams.

2. The beams and beam ends after I cut them off.

3. Mock up with passenger beam extended 5", stock pivots, using junkyard axle cut down from 25" to 24.5", and 31s. 2.75* cam used in passenger axle (highest made, results in I think 3.25* in 2wd application), ride height lowered.

4. Close up of passenger side mock up 5" wider.

5. Driver side beam extended 4" (beam end had to be moved up slightly as well, in order to keep driver side axle shaft in alignment in side gear)

I really wasn't happy with the 5" per side look. I have an explorer 8.8 rear which is 3" wider than my '91 stock rear, but the front still looked goofy. This truck will be used, not just in the desert either, I still want to fit on jeep trails and be able to manuever. So I mocked the beams up for 4" per side. It looks much better and will tuck in the glass better too.

Like I posted before, for the 4" per side extension, I cut my spare passenger and driver side stock axles and extended them 3.5" and 4", respectively. The stock passenger side is 20", so my mocked up axle is 23.5". My plan right now is to find a 24.5" shaft (possibly from a D44 from an F250 with leaf springs?), cut .5" off the end of the large splines, making it 24". Then if I drill the beam pivot holes 1/4" outboard of stock on both sides as Steve suggested, that makes up for the other .5". Then I can have my 25" D44 junkyard axle resplined to 4" over the stock driver side shaft length.

I called autofab about some 2" pivot brackets, but they haven't gotten back to me. I'll have to call them again. It may be worth it just to buy some from them rather than make my own.

I'm still having a tough time finding a 24.5" (or thereabouts) passenger shaft from a D44. I pulled up next to an older F-250 with leaf springs at home depot the other day and actually got out my tape measure and measured as well as I could, I think that's the shaft I need. Unfortunately, some junkyards don't want to sell just an axle shaft, they want to sell the whole frontend together.

But it looks like 4" per side is possible using D44 shafts and 2" drop pivots as I've described above. Thanks to RDC, I just picked up four SAW 2.5x14" shocks (but still need the coil hardware and coils) and will get some 4 1/2 foot stainless steel brake lines to run down the radius arm made tomorrow, so the process is coming along.

Sorry for the long post!

-Colin

[steveG]

Colin, any progress since I sent you a PM?

[grantdcol]

Steve,
Back at Cal Poly, (finishing up in June) so I haven't made any more progress. This is loosely the order I see things in for now:

1. Build/Buy 2" drop pivot brackets or convince myself I can use my 3" ones for now but fill the holes and drill new ones. I don't think I can spare the change for AutoFab brackets but I have no doubt they're well designed.
2. Find DOM to sleeve passenger side axle (until I can find correct oem replacement)
3. Respline my D44 junkyard axle to work as driver side axle
4. Complete the beams
5. Buy 2.5" SAW coil hardware and springs
6. Build hoops

So I've got a way to go. How's your project coming?

By the way, I didn't notice until now that you're in Arroyo Grande. I'd really like to see your progress some time. I'm in San Luis Obispo.

[steveG]

I'm waiting on some parts from Autofab. Hopefully they'll be done in the next couple weeks. I really need to get it done (at least partially) by the end of the month. I've got a trip planned at the end of Feb & plan on taking my Explorer and I'd like to put some miles on it before then.... Like I said, hopefully soon. Maybe we'll get together when it's done.

[grantdcol]

Made some progress on my beams. Sorry the pictures are so blurry.

I was able to fully weld all of the seams inside and outside. From the first picture of the driver side beam, you can see how I staggered the plates so that the beam end is moved up 3/16" and out 4" for proper side gear alignment for the driver side axle shaft. Additional 'fish mouth' plates will be added to reinforce the butt-joints on the top and bottom of the beams.

What do you guys think?

-Colin

[steveG]

Lookin good colin! Glad to see you've gotten some work done. They look good to me. I know you'd have to rework your radius arm pivots, but you really should think about moving the radius arm out on the beam. It would decrease the leverage on your radius arm and inboard side of the beams a lot. You also wouldn't have to gusset the hell out of the beam since it wouldn't have to be as strong....Just a thought.

Keep up the good work & keep us posted.

[grantdcol]

Since I increased the 'thickness' of the beams, top to bottom, I already have to rework my radius arms. I've been thinking about leverage on the radius arms, but I also want to get this done!

-Colin

[Desert Drifter]

Looking Good! SF here we come!

[scoobs]

How much travel can you get out of 4x4 that are not using Camburg beams.Also how good are the Autofab or Solo axles.Definitly perfer the 4wd over 2wd.

[motoxscott]

Here is a Driver side Dana 44 beam we are working on.

[scoobs]

And prices please.

[Jerry Zaiden]

And prices please.

The Camburg Beams are $1800 not trussed and $2200 with the truss. These prices include the 1" mono balls at the pivots. The radius arms are $1100 with brakets and all hardware.

If you want to see how we do these beams come down to the shop we will show you step by step what we do. We do way more to them then what you can see in a picture.

The custom axles are $400-$2000 depending on the quality of what you want to end up with.

We have even made custom hubs to go with these beams.

[baja-chris]

Have you tried making a steel upright to replace the stock (modified) casting?

I've ruined a couple of the castings from crashes on my Class 4 (prerunner).
One time we ripped the upper ball joint out of the casting, another time we
tore the spindle half way out of the casting (popped the heads off 2 of the 6
bolts and folded the casting back.) We have extensively reworked the cast
pieces, welded doubler rings behind where the 6 spindle bolts go, added
webbing, double shear the tie rods, etc. etc.

I suppose with a fabricated steel upright it would also make sense to modify
the housing to use a spherical bearings instead of the ball joints.

Anyway, these 4x4 i-beams like you make are very strong, the weak link is
the cast upright.

[grantdcol]

Baja-Chris - I've torn the snout out of the knuckle as well. It stripped the bottom bolt out of the casting, cracked the casting vertically through the bottom bolt hole, and bent out on both sides of the crack.

I should add that it was due to severly bottoming out on the stock bumpstops without sufficient dampening.

Do you have any pictures you'd like to share of the doubler rings you welded in?

-Colin

[scoobs]

Thanks for the help.

[grantdcol]

Installed my custom beams this weekend... and had some fun with the 12,000lb hoist!

I just put them in with some camburg/eibach 5.5 coils. Now I can start building hoops for the coilovers.

With 4" wider per side, track width is right around 80" with 31x10.50s on an 8" wheel. Looks good at ride height, but I think a 7" wheel with 33s or 35s will look even better.

-Colin

[steveG]

Lookin' good colin! What did you end up doing with the radius arm?

[grantdcol]

Steve, I cut the webbing between the upper and lower tubes of my radius arms (see pictures) so that I could spread them open an additional 3/8". I'll re-weld the seam and it will have all of its original strength.

The original mounting points aren't ideal with the extended beams but the arms should be pretty strong. I built them from 1.75x.120 DOM, and used 1/4" plate for the flanges that bolt to the beam. They use a 1 1/4" rebuildable heim joint and are tied into a tranny crossmember.

Let see your project!

-Colin

[steveG]

Colin, I hate to say it, but if you drive your truck as hard as I drove mine, I can almost promise you those radius amrs will bend. Just think about how much more leverage is on them now.... I know you'd be throwing a lot of work away if you reworked them, but it'd be a lot stronger if you moved the radius arm outward on the beam. What about mounting the radius arm on the outside of the frame rail? That might move it out enough to match the increase in width & lessen the amount of reworking you'd have to do.

As for my project, I shot myself in the foot a couple weeks ago. A super clean Full size Bronco(for sale) crossed my path and that exorbitantly large hair in my ass that requires a long long line of "backburner" projects would not let me pass it by. So in true Steve Gonzalez fashion, I blew my wad on that. The new plan is to build my Bronco into a simple and reliable prerunner/chase vehicle (with mostly Autofab parts of course) for friends racing MDR and build up my brothers Explorer with all the parts I've acquired over the past couple years. I've got all the major components for it: Radius arms, reinforced D44 TTB, coil-overs, coils, leaves for the rear, front and rear glass, etc, etc. There's just a small handful of misc parts we need to complete it-and more free time.

BTW, what did you end up doing for beam pivot brackets?

[baja-chris]

> Do you have any pictures you'd like to share of the doubler rings you welded in?

Here's a couple pics of my spares. The primary parts use better bolts but the
cast upright is modified the same way. I've never had a problem with these
under normal race conditions (Class 8 SCORE), in fact we barrel rolled the truck
300 miles into the Baja 1000 and still finished - no damage to the upright.

But on two previous occasions we have crashed the truck and had these
casting fail. One time we ripped the upper ball jount out of the casting. The
ball joint was still good, it just split the casting open. The other time we ripped
the spindle half way out, popped the heads off two of these 6 bolts and folded
the casting back about 15 degrees. The spindles were fine. I run hardened
steel copies of the stock parts. They came with the truck and I think they are
300M but I'm not sure. I did test the hardness of my race spindles and stock
ones and the race parts are hardened but who knows if they are really 300M.

[baja-chris]

BTW, those uprights were made by Ramsey. Notice the brake caliper mounts,
how close they are to the centerline of the axle? That's because Ramsey figured
out how to stuff a modified CNC 6 piston caliper in there with a 15" rim. It's the
big CNC caliper too, the one with the 6" BlackHawk pads. Chuck Neal made one
the first sets of billet steel rotors for this application. They have never warped
but I notice the design of his new ones is different. Chuck also machined an
aluminum rotor hat to adapt the steel rotor to the stock hub. I run a Hydroboost
system and the brakes are super powerful with no fade. It all fits with the
4wd and 15" rims.

[roach]

here are some shots of how my drivers side is coming out. you can barely see, but what i did was follow the factory "two piece" design. i cut the beam square about 5/8" after the radius arm mounting holes, built two identical 2" chromoly extensions that overlapped like the factory had, then tig welded it all back together. if you look at it from the top, the factory weld, and my 2" extension follow the original line.

[grantdcol]

Looks good Roach, is that a D44 beam? I had some trouble making my boxed section blend into the two piece design. What was the reasoning for chromoly if it's welded to mild steel at either end? What sort of welding process did you use to join the two types of metal?

-Colin

[roach]

i used chromo 'cause that's all we have laying around at work. i tiged it all together. still not done though. still adding some plating to it and a truss across the front. it is a D44, it is off my full size bronco that i am building right now. i'll put up some more pics as i make more progress.

[grantdcol]

No more coil buckets for me. Finished my 4" over beams and coilover conversion. Urethane bumped and strapped. I just got back from baja and it worked GREAT! Thanks to everybody for their input and advice!

The attachment is at the cattle crossing used on the race course at the San Vicente 200 RECORD race last year.

[phorensic]

Wow, that pic brings back memories from the last time I preran out in Barstow. My Ranchos decided to bite the dust and toast the shock oil (not surprising), so I had this cool bucking effect going on. You could feel the rear buck WAY up in the air and it felt like you were going to dive into the ground. Of course, I have no cage either, pucker factor 8.

[steveG]

Congrats Colin,
Lets see some more pics!

[roach]

cool!! glad to see someone is done. here is as far as i got before i went and broke my foot at work, i was welding on a 10 car (Lobsam Yee's new chassis) when it fell of the stands and landed on my foot. it crushed and broke my fibula. yeaouch!!!! needles to say, the project is on hold till i can walk again.

[steveG]

Man, finally someone that extended on the INSIDE of the radius arm! Looking good Roach! Well, except for the fact that Ford could not have made the D44 beams any uglier..LOL

[Benny Boy]

SteveG,

what do you mean extended on the inside of the radius arm? Or was this a Typo and you meant rearwardside of the differential retaining IBEAM?, Just curious, I thought maybe you had seen something in the photos from Roach that I had missed.

BB

[roach]

he means that the radius arms will move out along with the extension of the beam. leaving the radius arm on the inboard side and exstending the outside would creat that much more load onto the extended peice, IMOP making a weak spot.

[steveG]

I just meant that most people extend on the outside of the radius arm mount & create a lot more leverage. On the beams Roach extended the threaded bungs for the radius arm moved out with the beam end instead of leaving it in the stock location.

[Benny Boy]

I looked at the pictures a bit closer, now I see what you both mean by the Threaded radius arm holes being moved out with the 2" extention. I guess there is a happy medium with decreased leverage and radus arm tire rub. Roach, will you have to curve your radius arms inward to avoid tire contact with 35" or 37" tires, when the steering is cranked from complete left to right? Where do you plan to mount the radius arms to, on the bottom of the frame rails or on the outside? I used to have some rub issues on my ranger with bent Ibeams and modified radius arms :eek: , but probably a bigger offset inward on the Radius arms would have resolved that.

What do you plan to use as drive axles? Modified D44 axles or custom ones?

Just trying to get some idea of what some other people are doing. I hope to start a similar bronco-prerunner project this year for myself. I ve checked out all the Autofab and camburg kits, so I ve got some Ideas from those and read most of the old forums regarding I-Beam 4x4 mods. I m also refering to some prerunner bronco pics I took quite a while ago, let me know if anybody would like to check those out and I ll try to get them scanned in and posted.

regards

BB

[steveG]

Definitely post pics, we all love those....

[grantdcol]

No doubt that radius arms should be mounted as far out on the beam as possible. Easier said than done though. In my case, I had severly limited time/space/cash so I opted to extend on the outside of the radius arm mount, plate the top and bottom of the beam to reinforce the section which would be affected by the extra leverage, and modify my arms to fit over the reinforcements.

I'm saving my stock beams to extend on the inside of the radius arm mount, then I'll build new radius arms. Have to finish college first!

-Colin

[DMSRACE]

Here are some pics of my truck that Picone Engineering is building...

[matt_helton]

Here are some pics of my truck that Picone Engineering is building...


man that thing is sexy. i keep sayin im gonna go by and check out the new shop....i need to do that real soon.

[John_Bitting]

Matt let me know when you are gonna roll by Pick one, Domburg is right down the street from my work. Still got all your shirts and stickers.

[matt_helton]

and a dvd?? yeah sounds good. ill let you know. my race shop is right in that hood too.

[CRAIGHALL]

Hey Kevins where's the lower links ?

Soon my friend soon...

[DMSRACE]

Craig, the sooner the better huh....LOL..here are some more pics..

[grantdcol]

Here are some pics of my truck that Picone Engineering is building...

Real nice, clean shop too.

How much wider? How is the center slip joint and u-joint situation?

Glad to see a top-quality 4x4 being built.

-Colin

[DMSRACE]

It is 5" wider and cycles @ 21" with the 4x4 in place...I think Dominic is limiting it to @ 18" so it will live...he had custom axles made..

[roach]

well, after my 2 month broken foot ordeal, i am back to work as of this week. AND i can start making some much needed progress on my bronco as well. i'll resume posting the picts as i start re-fabing. feels good to be able to be back on two feet again!!!

[roach]

p.s.

here is a teaser. rough mockup of what it will be. enjoy.........see you all at the 500!!!!

[picone]

Clean shop too.

How is the center slip joint and u-joint situation?

-Colin

Thanks, the maid was in that day.

I assume the center is the front DS? It's really not a whole lot different than stock. The stock driveshaft will work but the stock double cardan is pretty small, so that will all get replaced.

[grantdcol]

I actually was refering to the splined slip joint and attached u-joint between the passenger side long shaft and the driver side intermediate shaft which comes out of the differential.

This is what I found:
With the stock setup, you only get a little over 1" of movement out of the splines (because of the machined seal surface and the length of the splined section on the axle shaft). The passenger side shaft slides into the slip joint and eventually bottoms out as the suspension droops. The center yokes will bind, and the passenger side axle will hit the top of the window in the passenger side beam even with extensive clearancing. I massaged my setup to where all of these things happen pretty close together, but I had to use a lowered beam pivot.

I'm just curious about what you ran into in that area.

The stock double cardan driveshaft on my '91 uses the same 1310 series joints used on the rear axle, and it has been my experience that they're pretty strong. They're not subjected to the same torque as the wheel u-joints. What are you upgrading to?

Looks great!

-Colin

[picone]

It was a really tight fit! The yokes needed to be clearanced just a tad (mostly casting marks) and the axles are a REALLY tight fit (lengthwise). Of course the PS beam needed quite a bit of clearancing on the opening to fit the DS. It also needs a new grease seal on the yoke. The wheel u-joints stayed the same (I think 297x) but the D35 gear was tossed for D44 kuckles, bj's, snouts, shafts... I'm not up on my double cardan sizes, but I know it needs to be bigger.

[grantdcol]

Nice, let's see some more pictures as you make progress

[steveG]

I thought those were D44 knuckles... Very Cool, keep us posted.

[Benny Boy]

The ranger beams with the Dana 44 gear looks tuff, thought of doing something similar a while back, but with a 44 differential.
Just curious, will the DANA 44 inner Axle splines fit in the Dana 35 differential side Gears? Or are the custom axle shafts taking care of this problem, by broaching 35 side gear splines on to 44 axle shafts.

Also any specific reason for using the stock steering tierod setup, other then cost? I wonder how the box will live, cycling through the 18 inches of travel. It seems there would be an excessive amount of bump steer, and tow in variation due to the single rotation point about the box. I ll try to post a pic of a simplified swingset steering that I saw years ago on a bronco, it was not full swingset steering, it used the steeringbox in the stock location with a modified arm, it had an intermediate arm that went to the passengerside with a pivot arm, from the pivot arm was a link straight to the driverside knuckle. For the passengerside, a link went straight from the steeringbox arm to the passengerside knuckle. The setup seemed simple, yet effective, and cost worthy. Im sure everyone is lost now. I ll try to find the pic. Thanx,

BB.

[grantdcol]

I know what you mean as far as the steering system. It seems a lot simpler than full swingset. I've thought about doing that with an idler arm on the passenger side that swings in parallel with the pitman arm.

The D44 and D35 both use x297 u-joints at the wheel, so you can mate D44 outers to D35 inners.

-Colin

[1450-ranger]

Similar to this? DMZ built it a while back i believe.

[Brandon_Charley]

That steering seems a lot simpler than the kind with two swingers, why don't more people use it?

[WannaB-class5]

Dual Swingers is the way to go with Equal length beams. This set up is killer for stock located beams. That being said, most people dont spend the time and money to do such a nice steering for stock pivot beams, so you don't see it much. Kinda like if I am going to spend the money, just go big (equal length) or go home (do nothing). Just my $0.02

[Brandon_Charley]

I wasn't paying attention to the pic, didn't realize they weren't equal length.

[Benny Boy]

Does anybody out there have a picture or two of the 4 x 4 beams and steering linkage used about 10 years back on the original rough riders 4 wheel drive bronco and truck. The Fairway and Fairview sponsored truck and bronco. I m talking the two vehicles that Dan Smith and Dave Ashley drove back in the day, before they combined to one truck. If somebody has some and could post them that would be great. If not does, anybody know if those were equal length beams or not. I know the steering linkage had some funky kinks in it, but I never got an up close look at the full setup. By the way whatever happened to that Bronco? I heard it went to mexico in the same time frame that simon's TT went, but was never sure? Anyone know.

BB

[picone]

The ranger beams with the Dana 44 gear looks tuff, thought of doing something similar a while back, but with a 44 differential.
Just curious, will the DANA 44 inner Axle splines fit in the Dana 35 differential side Gears? Or are the custom axle shafts taking care of this problem, by broaching 35 side gear splines on to 44 axle shafts.
Check my earlier post on the axle ?'s(couple pages back). I would say don't bother with the 44, the up-travel is limited enough with the 35 diff. TTB is not the best AWD setup, use it for getting unstuck or silt/sandwash search and rescue.


Also any specific reason for using the stock steering tierod setup, other then cost? I wonder how the box will live, cycling through the 18 inches of travel. It seems there would be an excessive amount of bump steer, and tow in variation due to the single rotation point about the box. I ll try to post a pic of a simplified swingset steering that I saw years ago on a bronco, it was not full swingset steering, it used the steeringbox in the stock location with a modified arm, it had an intermediate arm that went to the passengerside with a pivot arm, from the pivot arm was a link straight to the driverside knuckle. For the passengerside, a link went straight from the steeringbox arm to the passengerside knuckle. The setup seemed simple, yet effective, and cost worthy. Im sure everyone is lost now. I ll try to find the pic. Thanx,

Cost, but the toe change isn't bad...spares are easy to find in the middle of nowhere. If it bends real easy, redo the stock setup with chromo. The steering box needs a ram.


I thought those were D44 knuckles...
They are.

[murphco]

i have a picture of the equal length beams on one of those trucks.i found it this morning and will try to scan it tommorrow.it uses a two link system also instead of a radius arm.

[steveG]

Check my earlier post on the axle ?'s(couple pages back). I would say don't bother with the 44, the up-travel is limited enough with the 35 diff.

I disagree. Most people use stock axle pivot brackets when they build 4wd Ranger prerunners & that's why they have very little bump travel. On my Explorer I used Autofab's 16" travel kit & with 4" of lift it had around 10" of bump travel. Autofab uses custom built axle pivot brackets that use the same geometry as the 87-88 STX 4wd Rangers (2" of drop) and recommends a factory STX pitman arm to keep steering gemetry stock.

As far as using a D44 TTB on a Ranger, it can be done & you can get plenty of bump travel out of it. Using modified Autofab axle pivot brackets and un-modified(for lift) D44 housings and 1/2 degree alignment cams, I measured just over 7" of bump travel. By clearancing the driver-side frame rail and engine x-member a little you can get another 2". And again, that's without modifying the beams for lift. Modify the beam for another inch or two of lift & you've got yourself 10-11" of bump travel. I think that's plenty for most prerunners.

[thecos]

I also think that the rangers came stock with a drop-down pitman arm and made the geometry of steering links straight then having less angles on them. Unlike the bronco that didn't come with a drop-down pitman arm.
Anyone have any pics of any beams and radius arm as one piece? sorta like a j-arm. I thought I saw one on a old f150 but they didn't have any pics down under there in the mag and couldn't tell. I am in the process of making my own extended radius arms on my bronco and while down there measuring I remebered the idea off that old f150 in the mag.

[DMSRACE]

I think that running a complete 44 frontend is not worth the effort...why not just run the 44 knuckles and such?

[steveG]

What I really liked about the swap is it allows you to run stock (not extended) axle housings, stock D44 axleshafts(one is shortened around 3/8") and you get a track width increase of almost 4" per side. My original plan was to extend the D35 housings and add the D44 knuckles, but after doing a bunch of research and measuring I decided to go with the D44 swap. In my opinion, it's less work to relocate the pivot brackets than it is to extend beams. The swap is definitely easier now that you can buy the parts in kit form and bolt a D44 TTB to a Ranger/Explorer.

[dislocated1]

Doesn't running a D44 instead of the D35 open up alot more gear ratio options?

[steveG]

I haven't looked into that, but I know ratio options for the D35 are limited.

[grantdcol]

I haven't looked into that, but I know ratio options for the D35 are limited.

From what I can find, you have the options of 4.11, 4.56, and 5.13 for the D35. The last two require a special pin. If you want to run something like 4.30 or 4.88 in the rear, you're out of luck.

-Colin

[DMSRACE]

There are 488's and 513 for the Dana 35... I have the 513's the Picone found for me...They on the little side but most dezert trucks dont use 4x4 all the time...the old 7s 4x4's that I know of ran Dana 28's up front to save lbs...

[steveG]

...the old 7s 4x4's that I know of ran Dana 28's up front to save lbs...

I don't have any experience with the D28 front ends, but I've wondered if they're actually lighter than the D35 with its aluminum housing.

[DMSRACE]

That’s what I was told by the guys that ran them...also, the ground clearance is less with a 28...

[movindirt]

The 7 4x4 team I was on ran the Dana 28 at first and then we switched over to the 35. The 28 was for emergencies ONLY! With 250Hp all it took was a little to much throttle and the gears would let go.

So Kevin are you planning to race the new truck or is it just for chase?

Tony

[DMSRACE]

Chase and pre-run...

[murphco]

anonymous client.

[ShaneR]

Those look sweet Joe, I hope mine look as good!

[picone]

Lookin' good murph. D44 ends with D35 diff?

[murphco]

just plain dana 44 beams for a full size.3 inches wider per side and aligned for four inches of height.one piece radius arm/beam.uniball pivot beam and heimed radius arm.it swung 12 up and whatever down.

[grantdcol]

just plain dana 44 beams for a full size.3 inches wider per side and aligned for four inches of height.one piece radius arm/beam.uniball pivot beam and heimed radius arm.it swung 12 up and whatever down.
Looks good. What are you doing for axles/Slip-joint/U-joints?

-Colin

[murphco]

not my problem yet,i don't want to be that involved in that process.for now we will weld some axles together to cycle everything.

[ShaneR]

The welded ones should work for at least one trip out before I have to pony up and buy custom ones, unless I let you drive!

[grantdcol]

I'm really surprised that you were able to design beams without the axles. It has been my experience that their movement dictates the way the beams cycle. Any more pictures at compression/bump?

-Colin

[grantdcol]

Put my TTB to use this weekend, thought I would post some pictures.

-Colin

[Dezertpilot]

That 2nd pik what is up with that? Is that just flex or is that tire/rim at an extreme angle? Looks great though.

[grantdcol]

The axle is just articulated to an extreme angle, thanks!

-Colin

[wrightracing.net]

Hey I am working on my bronco and plan to do 2.5 coilovers and a bypass up front. I am going to extend 3in on each side up front and use stock axle pivot points like John did at autofab. Are you taking into account your knuck angle if you are lifting the trucks ride hight? The reason is that with a lift some people make the misstake of using drop brackets. I will be removing the drop brackets on my front pivots and using beefed up stock location ones to keep my geometry correct.


Made some progress on my beams. Sorry the pictures are so blurry.

I was able to fully weld all of the seams inside and outside. From the first picture of the driver side beam, you can see how I staggered the plates so that the beam end is moved up 3/16" and out 4" for proper side gear alignment for the driver side axle shaft. Additional 'fish mouth' plates will be added to reinforce the butt-joints on the top and bottom of the beams.

What do you guys think?

-Colin

[grantdcol]

Hey I am working on my bronco and plan to do 2.5 coilovers and a bypass up front. I am going to extend 3in on each side up front and use stock axle pivot points like John did at autofab. Are you taking into account your knuck angle if you are lifting the trucks ride hight? The reason is that with a lift some people make the misstake of using drop brackets. I will be removing the drop brackets on my front pivots and using beefed up stock location ones to keep my geometry correct.
That's actually incorrect. Autofab sells reinforce drop brackets. Stock pivots will limit your down travel and cause a much more pronounced narrowing of track width as the suspension droops. I reinforced my pivots, and extended them down 3" (2" would have been enough). The overall lift is about 5-6" I believe, and it cycles 18" at the brake rotor.

Read this entire post, especially the comments from steveG; there are a lot of reasons for using extended "drop" pivot brackets.

-Colin

[steveG]

Autofab uses 2" drop brackets (STX geometry)on the Ranger/Bronco II/Explorer travel kits and the D44 conversion kit.

The F150/Bronco kits use stock pivots. I don't think Colin will ever have problems with his drop brackets as long as they were built/reinforced well.

[hammer down racing]

Well I feel a little stupid for asking this but here I go. Could four wheel drive I-beams possibly be used as an independent rear suspension? I know the ring and pinion would have to be reversed and all that but could it work well? I have never heard of anyone actually doing this and I probably would never attempt it. This question has just been bouncing around in my brain for a while and figured this website would give an honest opinion.

[steveG]

D44 TTB front ends use a reverse rotation ring and pinions, so you would actually use a standard rotation ring and pinion if used as the rear axle on a vehicle. The D44 is a too weak to use in anything heavy, even a Ranger, but it would be interesting. There was a guy on therangerstation.com that was building a Bronco II with TTB's front and rear, I thought it was interesting, I don't know how it turned out.
It's more work than I would want to do, but if someone was going to attempt it I'd say use a D50 TTB.

[Chris_Wilson]

Besides all the strength issues, you might not be happy with a rear swing axle
in the handling dept either. RDC is a desert racing forum after all...

[OldStroppeTeam]

Besides all the strength issues, you might not be happy with a rear swing axle
in the handling dept either. RDC is a desert racing forum after all...


Swing axle??? Handling ???? Lets see, OH YEAH, just dont lift, !!! KEEP YOUR FOOT IN IT!!! YEAH thats it !! If it breaks, it wasn't built correctly !!!:D

[wrightracing.net]

:) The F150/Bronco is what I was talking about. I have been running drop brackets that have been beefed up on my bronco with 13in of travel upfront and it works but it could be better. As you can see in the pictures below I will use every bit of my wheel travel one the new setup is in. This was labor Day at pismo and some of the pre this summer. Broncos are great for jumping in the Dunes.

http://wrightracing.net/wr/1.jpg
http://wrightracing.net/wr/2.jpg
http://wrightracing.net/wr/3.jpg
http://wrightracing.net/wr/4.jpg


Autofab uses 2" drop brackets (STX geometry)on the Ranger/Bronco II/Explorer travel kits and the D44 conversion kit.

The F150/Bronco kits use stock pivots. I don't think Colin will ever have problems with his drop brackets as long as they were built/reinforced well.

[Raceprep]

hey i haven't seen much 4x4 ibeam trucks and i thought that if any one has pictures they could display them. i am bulding a 4x4 ranger right now and i could use some ideas. i will display some pics of the truck soon. ok thanks


I am working on a Bronco right now and will post some pics when done. The front uses gusseted stock pivots and relocted lower balljoints and it cycles a usable 18". Running 2.5 coilover and 2.5 bypass(Fox).

[Chris_Wilson]

The ttb pivots on my race/prerun truck (in avitar) are actually raised, not lowered.
They are pushed up higher into the crossmember to lower the CG and roll center.
It was designed and built by Curt LeDuc and it handles excellent. The downside
of course is that it gives up some travel to do this. It only gets 18" even though
the beams are about 4" wider per side. But it's a good 18"! It runs 1" Uniballs
all around (beam piviots and radius arms). Using a special Uniball from Kartek now,
not the standard 1" units.

[steveG]

How about some pics?

[Outcast]

The ttb pivots on my race/prerun truck (in avitar) are actually raised, not lowered.
They are pushed up higher into the crossmember to lower the CG and roll center.


Raising those mounts in the chassis won't necessarily lower the roll center of the front suspension. All that is doing is manipulating where the chassis sets in relation to the suspension geometry, it does not change the suspension geometry itself. It will lower the chassis and the subsequent sprung CG acting on the front tires. This will, in turn reduce the "moment arm" between the front, sprung CG and the front roll center inherently increasing the roll rate of the suspension, which depending on springs and shocks, can reduce body roll and subsequent undesirable steering inputs that are associated.

Additionally, adding track width, as happens with extended beams will actually raise the roll center of a typical TTB front end. See attached crude drawings as illustrations.

http://img15.imgspot.com/u/05/296/15/TTB1130183866.jpg

[steveG]

When I first read the post about raising the pivot points, I immediately thought that it would increase jacking which might in turn decrease body-roll. I don't know that it would be desirable, but who knows...

It would be interesting to be able to set up to trucks identically with widened beams. One with stock pivots and one with raised, then compare the handling characteristics.

[jeff]

Back to the top... yeah I know it's an old thread. Anyone have updates that they care to share?

Aloha

[steveG]

Jeff, did anything ever come of your equal length build?

[jeff]

The beams never got finished. The idea was sound and it worked well on the stands. No telling how well it would've worked out in the dirt. I torched the Bronco into little pieces and hauled each one to the local land fill. I ran out of room in the Bronco and then ran out of time to work on it. So I threw it away and started over with a 1993 F150 x-cab short bed 4x4. That project has been sitting in the shop unmoved since a trip to Glamis over Thanksgiving, 2004. The new project is being built by someone else... and I'm again in the market for some widened and braced D44 TTB's. I have been looking around for a few months and it appears that not much has changed over the last decade as far as TTB stuff goes.

Aloha

[jeff]

Shameless plug... I've got a set of Camburg 4x4 TTB beams for sale. The full trippple throw down trussed ones. PM me if you are interested.

Aloha

[steveG]

I guess you found some beams...and changed your mind. What's the plan now?

[jeff]

Same plan... just a little different. Truck is caged with 2" .120, seat mounts are done, front glass and hood is on... front suspension work is in progress... back half is about a month +/- away.

Aloha

[ironbenderii]

Back from the dead... When you guys extend these, are your turning them to improve castor as well?

[wrightracing.net]

Back from the dead... When you guys extend these, are your turning them to improve castor as well?

Yes they should have the lower ball joint pushed out anywhere from 3/8" to 1/2" depending on your ride height.

I am getting ready to do my front end soon but I am just moving the lower BJ out for now until I can get custom axles. They are about $300 from Moser Engineering for the inner axles that are +2 over stock length.

[movindirt]

Yes they should have the lower ball joint pushed out anywhere from 3/8" to 1/2" depending on your ride height.

I am getting ready to do my front end soon but I am just moving the lower BJ out for now until I can get custom axles. They are about $300 from Moser Engineering for the inner axles that are +2 over stock length.

Jack was talking about caster which would involve moving either or both BJ's in fore aft directions. In your case you are affecting camber which is equally important. How much are people rolling the caster back? I would think with jacking you want it to be better in droop then bump. Just as long as it is livable bump I would get the most out of the droop side.

[ironbenderii]

You are correct Tony.

I'd say, that if your radius arms are fairly level, you don't want to have too much castor so that at bump you won't be able to turn your wheels but you need enough when the suspension is suspended to bring the wheels straight when they touch down... I'm not sure where that balance is though, doesn't seem like people are rotating the inner c's when extending their beams so maybe it isn't too big a deal?

Jack

[wrightracing.net]

Jack was talking about caster which would involve moving either or both BJ's in fore aft directions. In your case you are affecting camber which is equally important. How much are people rolling the caster back? I would think with jacking you want it to be better in droop then bump. Just as long as it is livable bump I would get the most out of the droop side.

I get caster camber mixed all the time. I have not heard of messing with the caster in the ttb. The main reason for modifications are to get the camber back to OEM without using drop brackets. Is also helps with steering. Someone may be changing caster in a TTB but I have not heard of a need.:confused:

Now in an A-arm setup I see it's use.

[ironbenderii]

Yeah, I haven't heard of anybody doing this either. I can see a use for sure, you'll be steering on marbles w/o sufficient castor...

This has been a great thread... A couple more questions. When people talk about equal length beams, to what are they referring and for what benefit?

Jack

[Brandon_Charley]

Equal length beams are generally 2wd only, but I've heard of some 4wd in the past and Blitz is supposed to have something on the drawing board. Equal length beams are usually longer so they are capable of more travel with less camber change, and since both beams are the same they have the same camber on both sides at any point in the travel.

[ironbenderii]

Good info, thanks. I've got a Bronco being dropped off that I'm going to be extending the beams on, just trying to get my research done ahead of time...

Jack

[movindirt]

To get TTB with functional 4wd you would need to run the right side in front. There was a thread on here that had pics of an older truck with the right side in front. Not sure if it was equal length though..

Steering set up gets easier with equal length.

And I guess I wasn't thinking in terms of 4wd when I said to roll the caster back. Unlike 2wd you will have to account for pinion angle and this will be a limiting factor.

[movindirt]

Here is one thread I found talking about equal length TTB's: CLICK HERE (http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18123&highlight=equal+length+TTB)

[steveG]

From the thread Tony linked to: http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18123&highlight=equal+length+TTB


Why is having equal length TTB 4wd beams a good thing? It's still just a swing axle.
How good can it get? And the travel is still going to be limited by the u-joint angles
in the crossover u-joint. Seems like a lot of work for little return. Am I missing
something?

I'm with Chris on this. I've never understood why some people are so bent on making equal length axle-housings.

From the factory, although the beams themselves aren't the same lengths, they still travel in the same arc.

An illustration borrowed from a fellow TTB aficionado:

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/475918/fullsize/ttbsymetry.jpg

From what I've seen, a lot of extended radius arms stray from this geometry but it doesn't seem to affect performance.

[down4glamis]

There would be less of an angle put onto the ujoint in the axle that would go to the passenger side tire. With equallength beams, things are more gradual(sp), camber change is less, caster change can be less, and you can get perfect steering out of it. you will have the a strong simple setup in the equal length beams. then you add the 4wd for silt beds in baja, or ****, for prerunning the 1000 like we did this year from san ignacio down. there are pics of the jeffries bronco almost sunk! w/ 4wd you can have that much more confidence in not getting stuck, and then the equal length, w/ coilover,bypass,bump, will let you prerun at real race speeds and not beat your equipment, or yourself up. tons of advantages... just wish i could get someone to want to do it...

[down4glamis]

on another note about the caster...

on my ttb beams on my ranger, i kept the caster at 9degrees at ride height, but at full bump, the bushing at the beam mount was put at a bad angle, and was prematurly wearing out my bushings. i cut the bushings off, and put a bung in for a heim, and have had 0 problems after. 4wd beams are gone, and ive moved on to equal length 4wd. 4wd equal length is possible, just need a customer that needs the application in their vehicle...

[baja&boats]

I have a 92 ttb bronco and I was thinking of of having the beams cut & turned and building some radious arms with like a 5.5 coil for the front for the rear i want to run leaves with the longest shock that i can under the body has anyone done this without spending a fortune?

[steveG]

I'm answering in your "Bronco Prerunner" thread to keep this one on track.

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25542

[baja&boats]

what shops sell 4x beams cut n turned but not widened, how much travel can expect to get without coilovers? Im not looking to race I just want a little more wheel travel.

[steveG]

A lot of shops sell stock width modified housings. I've owned several Autofab front end kits and have been really happy with them. Around 16" of wheel travel is max for a stock width TTB.

[baja&boats]

Steve,is that 16'' with a stock coil bucket ? I spoke with john yesterday, his stuff doesnt come cheap, but from what I have heard he is a stand up guy and stands behind his products. he told me to do all of the work myself and just but the parts , his two link
kit looks easy to build , he told me that he will give me the measurements when i am ready, do

[partybarge_pilot]

There was a thread on here that had pics of an older truck with the right side in front. Not sure if it was equal length though..


Yup, Yup!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/post-12-29708-normal_Rough_Riders.jpg

[ironbenderii]

Seems to me, the advantage of having equal length beams (and longer beams in general) is to get a flatter arc (as down4glamis said). Even if you weren't to get more travel out of the setup, the u-joint would be at a reduced angle in it's range of motion which would give it a longer life, right?

The comment about having enough room for steering kind of worries me... I guess we'll have to wait and see how it looks when it's mocked up...

[steveG]

Seems to me, the advantage of having equal length beams (and longer beams in general) is to get a flatter arc (as down4glamis said). Even if you weren't to get more travel out of the setup, the u-joint would be at a reduced angle in it's range of motion which would give it a longer life, right?

In theory I suppose that's true, but I don't hear about TTB axle-shaft joints failing often when there isn't a geometry issue or just plain severe punishment. Of course longer and equal beams are better, but is the difference appreciable from the drivers seat when travel is (relatively) limited anyway?

[partybarge_pilot]

In theory I suppose that's true, but I don't hear about TTB axle-shaft joints failing often when there isn't a geometry issue or just plain severe punishment. Of course longer and equal beams are better, but is the difference appreciable from the drivers seat when travel is (relatively) limited anyway?


The only failures I have seen are due to the u-joint cap rotating and spitting off the retianing clip. I now tack weld all the caps to the axles. I wish I had listened to Curt a little sooner......

[picone]

Here is a maiden voyage video of the truck that was being built a few pages back.
YouTube - Fat in Barstow 2
YouTube - Fat in Barstow

[inmymind]

Since i started a earlier thread about TTB D35 and didnt get much response, Ill try again here. I would like to put a D35 ttb into a 86 ext. cab ranger 2x2. SteveG responded back with that it would be difficult because of the different engine cross menber. I just wanted to known if I would have to change out the cross member when I had the engine out or are is it much more than that? And what would that be?

[Brandon_Charley]

Since i started a earlier thread about TTB D35 and didnt get much response, Ill try again here. I would like to put a D35 ttb into a 86 ext. cab ranger 2x2. SteveG responded back with that it would be difficult because of the different engine cross menber. I just wanted to known if I would have to change out the cross member when I had the engine out or are is it much more than that? And what would that be?

Have you looked at the 2 crossmembers? They are pretty different and aren't exactly bolt on.

[picone]

Since i started a earlier thread about TTB D35 and didnt get much response, Ill try again here. I would like to put a D35 ttb into a 86 ext. cab ranger 2x2. SteveG responded back with that it would be difficult because of the different engine cross menber. I just wanted to known if I would have to change out the cross member when I had the engine out or are is it much more than that? And what would that be?
You're not going to find too many people that know of will take the time to find out for you because a whole '86 4x4 Ranger costs less than the driveshafts you'll need to do the swap.

[inmymind]

Hay dont be haten on the 86, its old school and was a fine year. Thanks for the input! Sounds like I should stay in two wheel drive and do something with beams and go that route.

[picone]

Hay dont be haten on the 86, its old school and was a fine year. Thanks for the input! Sounds like I should stay in two wheel drive and do something with beams and go that route.
Nothing wrong with the 86 (the vid above was of a '91 and I think that one is badass), but in all truth, you can go buy one with a bad motor for $500-. In fact, you can buy one with a running motor for $500-.
Do what you want...2wd is cool.

[down4glamis]

In theory I suppose that's true, but I don't hear about TTB axle-shaft joints failing often when there isn't a geometry issue or just plain severe punishment. Of course longer and equal beams are better, but is the difference appreciable from the drivers seat when travel is (relatively) limited anyway?

The handling and cornering would much better with a crossover setup. 18" of travel is plenty. 18" of silk is better than 16" of toe in and tons of camber change. you would notice in the steer wheel, and thats where it counts. you could also slightly change the steering ratio by the mounting points on the swingers. tons of handling diffrence in the front, where it counts. link the rear and go kill it in silt, washes, or mud?!?!

[OutToLaunch]

Does anyone have any updates to this thread pictures etc ? This is a good one lets keep it going.

[Beat98TJ]

Does anybody have pictures of these drop brackets that are being used with the 80-96 F-150 4wd or similar vintage Bronco?

I have a 96 F-150 I am playing with that had a drop bracket lift (traildisaster) and cracked the frame crossmember. I am putting a different lift on it which has what appears to be better drop mounting brackets (more bolts, spread out more) but I am still concerned about future cracking.

[steveG]

Frank, why aren't you using modified beams with stock pivot brackets?

[*TRD*]

Because he wouldnt let me make custom beams...

[Beat98TJ]

Frank, why aren't you using modified beams with stock pivot brackets?

A few reasons:

1. The stock pivot brackets were damaged or missing.

2. My budget for the build consists of very little.

3. We acquired a Rancho kit which replaced most of the damaged parts, and has much better drop bracketry than the previous kit. I am still wondering how long it is going to hold up.

In a perfect world we would have put an autofab/solo/camburg extended 4WD beam kit on the truck. They are not 100% required as we are using this to test 46mm monotube shocks and not larger diameter units.

I plan to use it as is until it falls completely apart and go from there. For the most part I am happy to be getting a dedicated test vehicle.

I still need to hit up the yards to get replacement bracketry for the future. I am not looking forward to removing those rivets with handtools.

[gwm]

I know I've posted this before but I don't think it was this thread. I also had problems with drop brackets (the brackets broke, not the xmember) until I had Spirit Racing install braces off the outer sides and back of each bracket. The braces were 1" .120 wall that was welded to the bracket and bolts to the frame rail on the side and the opposite side of the engine xmember on each drop bracket. No problems since.

BTW, it's an f250 diesel and was breaking mostly because I overdrive it.

[Beat98TJ]

So then you have a 1" tube from the drop bracket bolt to the far side frame rail? (Just trying to clarify) Or does each one tie into both framerails?

[steveG]

As far as I know Rancho only makes a 2.5" lift. If that's correct then you might be ok with 2.5" drop brackets. Add some bracing like George suggested and it should hold up fine for your purposes.

[Beat98TJ]

Hmmm. It is advertised as a 4". I will see how much drop there is in the brackets when I go downstairs next.

I am definately willing to brace it as much as possible. I am not looking for a race truck, just something that can heat up and work a 2" shock without needing a complete rebuild between trips.

[steveG]

Well if that's what it's advertised as I'm sure it's right. It's been a long time since I've looked through a Rancho catalog.

[wrightracing.net]

Does anybody have pictures of these drop brackets that are being used with the 80-96 F-150 4wd or similar vintage Bronco?

I have a 96 F-150 I am playing with that had a drop bracket lift (traildisaster) and cracked the frame crossmember. I am putting a different lift on it which has what appears to be better drop mounting brackets (more bolts, spread out more) but I am still concerned about future cracking.

Save money and Time and get camburg to cut and turn your beams, it is only $500 for the beams at stock length and then just beef up the stock pivot brackets, it is much stronger. Drop brackets are not a good way to go on a full size like a bronco or a F150.

That being said I had Rancho drop brackets on my Bronco for 10 years, 4 pre-run trips to the tip of Baja for the 1000 adn at least a 100,000 miles in the Dirt. On top of that I love to jump my bronco in the dunes at Pismo and Glamis. With a modified 3" Rancho lift Bilstien shocks 12" travel in front and 14" in rear with drop brackets. I am not going to chance it so the drop brackets have to go.

The Bronco has been a daily driver, Pre-runner and now is torn down and converted to a class 3 race truck. It only has 300,000 or so miles on it.

[Beat98TJ]

Thanks for all the advice. I think in the short term we will brace the rancho kit as best we can. Long term we may go another way. It really depends how well this setup holds up and for how long. The company gave me a truck for testing and the rest is up to me. I really just want to go to the desert and test.

btw this is the truck I started with:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/stories/fs612/f150.jpg

Not much to look at but the price was right.

[gwm]

So then you have a 1" tube from the drop bracket bolt to the far side frame rail? (Just trying to clarify) Or does each one tie into both framerails?

Each drop bracket is braced to the frame rail on that side and to the crossmember. The brace to the crossmember goes back on one side and forward on the other. They do not cross to the opposite frame rail.

[Beat98TJ]

gwm,

Thank you, I will try that. I have plated a good part of the crossmember and welded and bolted the brackets to it. Hopefully I get a few trips out of it before all hell breaks loose.

[jeff]

Sort of off-topic but... this is a custom knuckle that is going on my F-150 project. Fabricated knuckle, uses the factory ball-joint, caliper is a GearOne 6-piston, rotor is by Tubeworks. PM me for the scoop...

Aloha

[jeff]

One more...

Aloha

[Chris_Wilson]

Jeff that's a nice looking piece. How did you make the taper for the ball joint?

Although I've never broken a stock ball joint, I have broken or bent a couple of the stock cast knuckles in crashes. I think the stock ball joints are very strong but I've wondered about using something else like a uniball with a mod to the ttb housing to put them in double shear for example. Did you look into that before deciding to stick with the stock ball joints?

The other thing I've wondered about is using a nice aluminum hub like TubeWorks then making a custom drive plate that has the end of the OEM hub on it (the part with the splines) so that you could bolt a Warn locking hub onto the driveplate and use a bigger 2.5" spindle and bigger D50 series axles (which slip into the D44 thrid member).

[partybarge_pilot]

How did you make the taper for the ball joint?


Uhhhh, the taper is in the beam?

[steveG]

Very nice Jeff. You've dropped a lot of unsprung weight with that set up. That hub/rotor assembly has to be a quarter of the weight of the OE piece. Right?

Chris, do you have axle-shaft issues often?

[jeff]

The factory style ball-joint seems to do just fine and I saw no reason to change it. This will make alignment easy as it still allows the use of the factory style cams. Is there a way to make a mis-alignment spacer at the beam end, yeah, we looked at that. Didn't see a reason to re-invent that wheel.

I despise the factory Ford brake caliper. I figured by the time the factory knuckle was properly re-worked to allow the use of a good caliper and rotor combination I could just replace the entire setup. This allows the use of pretty much any caliper and rotor combo, including the bigass 6-piston jobber you see in the pics.

This should be stronger. The last thing I want is to be bounding through the boonies and have an issue with the cast knuckle. The same people that said they never have issues with ball-joints were the ones that said the only failures they had seen were at the knuckle. The bolt on spindle would crack / fail at its mount. Hopefully this prevents that from ever being an issue. The tabs for the steering linkage are also properly located. A simple double sheer mount is better than tapered tie rod end conversion stuff.

Axles... if the stockers have issues, and they probably will, they'll get replaced with some better stuff down the road.

Plus it's got bling appeal.

Aloha

[down4glamis]

Doesnt get any better, 4wd, with huge brakes and all the other goodies...

I wonder if there are still many 4wd prerunners out there that would be interested in having something a lil better/stronger than stock...

[OutToLaunch]

Depends on the $$$:D

[OutToLaunch]

Does anyone have any real world 4wd experience with custom length
axles ? Something beyond silt,mud,tow. .

Any definate sources for custom length axles at reasonable prices ?

Anyone heard of aTTB Dana 44 +1.5 or +2.0 in a Ranger ?



Have you built any long travel ttb's ?

Any progress on Equal length ttb set-up ? Ha Ha D4G ?

[partybarge_pilot]

Have used the autofab +3 axles and extended beam kit. Aside from some minor alignment issues on the D side axle, everything works just like stock.

[wrightracing.net]

Does anyone have any real world 4wd experience with custom length
axles ? Something beyond silt,mud,tow. .

Any definate sources for custom length axles at reasonable prices ?

Anyone heard of aTTB Dana 44 +1.5 or +2.0 in a Ranger ?



Have you built any long travel ttb's ?

Any progress on Equal length ttb set-up ? Ha Ha D4G ?

I am building a bronco long travel with +2 on each side. I called around to a bunch of places and one place I found for the inner axles +2 was CTM in Oceanside. Jack quoeted me $450 for the two inner axles. I am not sure if I am going to use them yet but Scott at Camburg recomended Them.

[steveG]

Anyone heard of aTTB Dana 44 +1.5 or +2.0 in a Ranger ?

Autofab has a bolt-on D44 TTB conversion for Rangers. It's already almost 4" wider per side.

[steveG]

I am building a bronco long travel with +2 on each side. I called around to a bunch of places and one place I found for the inner axles +2 was CTM in Oceanside. Jack quoeted me $450 for the two inner axles. I am not sure if I am going to use them yet but Scott at Camburg recomended Them.

Why 2" wider?

[OutToLaunch]

I just threw that out there... I like the 6.5" wider beam's on 2wds.Trying to get the Dana 44's about the same. Basically I want them a little wider than the stock width Dana 44 Ranger kit. The Auto Fab Dana 44 Ranger kit is nice but I want a little wider stance. All of the nice new fiberglass is very wide with very large wheel opening's. The stock width 44 will look way to small. And if I'm gonna throw 4 to 7 grand at the front end it better at least look good. Just trying to think of the little thing's. I looked at a very nice 4x Ranger with the 4.5" Camburg beam's on it with F-150 Frt.clip and it looked silly. It looked like a stock width ranger with bulged glass.

I forgot Auto Fab made the beam's + 3" for the Bronco/F-150. But with everything I've heard about Auto Fab and him getting mad at kid's for wanting Coilover's , I figured I better not even consider going to talk with him about a Ranger with +2.5-3 wider 44 beam's ,Coilovers and I want to run a different radius arm.(Not crazy about the DOM.) And If I was feeling a little spendy and decide to go with By Passes It might put him over the edge Ha Ha

[steveG]

I think the widening of vehicles has gone a little (a lot in some cases) overboard. How wide does a truck, especially a mid-size, really need to be? I feel the same way about all the front clip conversions. Some look awesome, but some, like you noted, just look silly.

As far as John, I think most that actually know him will tell you he's a good guy. Honest and absolutely a straight shooter.

[151fab]

Why 2" wider?

I believe it's the maximum legal for a class 3?

Wrightracing, what are you going to prerun/chase the Bronco with? How about a plus-4, stretched, and linked Bronco with working four wheel drive? Lately, it seems like when a team is limited with what they can do to the race vehicle they are making up for it with their prerunners. If that logic holds true than a team who races Broncos should have one he!! of a prerunning Bronco. Got any plans?

[wrightracing.net]

Why 2" wider?

Like what was said, it is the most I can go for Class 3 and stay with in the rules.

The next project that I am going to work on is a F150 to race 1400 pro class. On that I am going to Link the rear and do +4 or +3 on each side.

Right now I have a 1999 f350 Crew cab that I have been using to chase for a Class 8 team. I would like to Build a wild Prerunner with all carpeted quiet interior with ac & heating.

But right now I have a Bronco, F150, F350, 33ft motor home and a 20FT trailer in my driveway. So for the time I am out of room. I am thinking of buying land and put a shop on it, like a steel building. I am not sure yet we will see, that is not going to happen anytime soon. It seems to be a better I deal to buy than lease a shop do to rental shop space is so high

I preran with my Bronco for years, including several trips down Baja, I have been spoiled with the F350 but it is not fast in the woops. We do get up to 75 or 80 in the long valley open roads but it gets a little hairy.

.

[OutToLaunch]

Yeah ,we have 0 prerunner style truck's in Albuquerque. So I don't get to see all the stuff like you guy's. But some of them look pretty bad even on the computer. Some of the super super wide front end truck's I would'nt want to be seen in. I've seen alot of nice A-arm truck's that are just so wide in the front, if they would just do something to the rear it would'nt be bad. I like the classified shot's of truck's from the side.. front tire looks like a...... 37" .....back tire 32".

[picone]

Autofab has a bolt-on D44 TTB conversion for Rangers. It's already almost 4" wider per side.
Why one want to put a D44 in a Ranger over a converted D35?
You get a more limited up travel, more weight and shorter driveshaft?
The only advantage is a slightly higher gear selection but is that necessary?

[steveG]

Why one want to put a D44 in a Ranger over a converted D35?
You get a more limited up travel, more weight and shorter driveshaft?
The only advantage is a slightly higher gear selection but is that necessary?

I responded to this last time you asked me about that. I don't know if you ever saw it.


I would say don't bother with the 44, the up-travel is limited enough with the 35 diff. TTB is not the best AWD setup, use it for getting unstuck or silt/sandwash search and rescue.



I disagree. Most people use stock axle pivot brackets when they build 4wd Ranger prerunners & that's why they have very little bump travel. On my Explorer I used Autofab's 16" travel kit & with 4" of lift it had around 10" of bump travel. Autofab uses custom built axle pivot brackets that use the same geometry as the 87-88 STX 4wd Rangers (2" of drop) and recommends a factory STX pitman arm to keep steering gemetry stock.

As far as using a D44 TTB on a Ranger, it can be done & you can get plenty of bump travel out of it. Using modified Autofab axle pivot brackets and un-modified(for lift) D44 housings and 1/2 degree alignment cams, I measured just over 7" of bump travel. By clearancing the driver-side frame rail and engine x-member a little you can get another 2". And again, that's without modifying the beams for lift. Modify the beam for another inch or two of lift & you've got yourself 10-11" of bump travel. I think that's plenty for most prerunners.

The D44 conversion has about 10" of bump travel and about 8" of droop with a coil-bucket. More is possible with a coil-over. As far as the diveshaft, when I had the D44 mocked up on my Explorer I cycled it with the stock length driveshaft and didn't see any need to shorten it. I don't know if John had to shorten it for the truck he built.

Although the axleshafts are the same diameter outside of the differential, the D35 axle does taper down where it enters the differential (on the drivers side if I remember correctly. The D44 does not.

A huge plus in my book is the fact that the conversion uses stock axle-shafts. That means no need for high-zoot custom shafts, no one-off lengths and no clearancing of yokes. Spares can be found in any wrecking yard accross the coultry. You gotta love that.

Then add to that a larger ring and pinion, more gear selections, more traction device options, no need for excessive reinforcing and bracing due to added beam length.... For me it's a no-brainer.

Oh, not to mention the fact that you can bolt the foundation kit on in a few hours.

Picone, don't get me wrong, I think the truck you built is awesome and better than anything I'll ever own. It's just not the way I would have wanted it. To each his own....

[picone]

My apologies, I didn't read your earlier post. I'll repay with a nights worth of cooler diving at the races.

I'll give you the advantage of stock parts. That is sweet to be able to junk yard some stock parts.
But:
#1 - The steering is different. The placement of the box lessens the opportune of the steering geom. Probably not a big deal they are beams and you can X-over.

#2 - Axle diameter and clearancing Yoke. The axle diameter is no issue here. I thought the yokes were the same on the 44 and 35. The one sticking out of the 35 did need to be clearanced...just a little tho. U joints are the same.

#3 - New axles don't cost THAT much but more than J-Yrd. I run into people thinking they have to spend $2,000 for axles and that is just not the case for nice 4130 axles.

#4 - AWD - TTD is not an AWD. I think only put it in when stuck.

KD's rig has a 4.0L and 5:13's and it boogies but it's not a 400hp V8. You need 400hp in a ranger to hit 100mph in the dirt so more gear isn't solving the mph problem.

How does that kit work? Are they big drop brackets for the pivots so they can get up travel? The up/dwn specs aren't relevant unless you say what the ride height is. I know the D44 housing is quite a bit bigger than the D35 (like inches bigger). At 50% of the total length, an inch is a lot of travel. I found that the D35 absolutely kills the up travel over a 2wd. KD's truck bottoms out with the diff on the x-mem. The back has 34" and 1/2 up. This still leave the frame at a slant at full bump (inches of clearance at the front and the rear link mts dragging). You then run into cost vs. TTB vs Frame vs. ....

[steveG]

How does that kit work? Are they big drop brackets for the pivots so they can get up travel? The up/dwn specs aren't relevant unless you say what the ride height is. I know the D44 housing is quite a bit bigger than the D35 (like inches bigger). At 50% of the total length, an inch is a lot of travel. I found that the D35 absolutely kills the up travel over a 2wd. KD's truck bottoms out with the diff on the x-mem. The back has 34" and 1/2 up. This still leave the frame at a slant at full bump (inches of clearance at the front and the rear link mts dragging). You then run into cost vs. TTB vs Frame vs. ....

Although the D44 is larger, the distance between the pivot and the outboard end (wheel side) of the differential is shorter than the D35. The D35 housing gradually tapers down and the D44 curves down into the beam and ends. The biggest difference is in the height, but it's possible to squeeze it into the stock frame with minimal trimming.

The Autofab kit uses small drop brackets. The same drop (but not the same brackets) that is used on their D35 kits. The bracket for the D35 kit is the same geometry as what came on 87-88 STX 4WD Rangers. This is one of the reason most stock-pivot-point, stock-width D35 kits are limited to about 12" of travel. I used and abused one of their D35 kits on my Explorer and it worked great. JBO now owns and abuses the same front end. I never had any issues with the brackets. From what I've seen, the STX style drop bracket is about the same drop as what people use on equal length beam kits and because of the inherent lack of bump travel, bottoming the brackets is not an issue.

Although I was already planning on using an STX style drop bracket, when I first started playing around with the idea of the D44 swap years ago, I started with the stock pivot brackets just to see what it was like. To sum it up, using the stock pivots the swap would be crap and like you said not worth the work.

Lower the pivot a bit and things start to look a lot better. This is where you gain bump travel. It would be intersting to compare full bump between your front end and the D44 conversion.


#1 - The steering is different. The placement of the box lessens the opportune of the steering geom. Probably not a big deal they are beams and you can X-over.

Cross-over is certainly the best way to go, but I'm not following you on the steering being different between the D44 & D35. The gear box is in a different location, but so are the axle-housing pivot points.


#2 - Axle diameter and clearancing Yoke. The axle diameter is no issue here. I thought the yokes were the same on the 44 and 35. The one sticking out of the 35 did need to be clearanced...just a little tho. U joints are the same.

From what I've read in your posts about the clearancing, it sounds minimal and not really an issue. I don't think the yokes are so different that it makes a difference, the axle pivot bracket used in the conversion makes yoke clearances better.


#3 - New axles don't cost THAT much but more than J-Yrd. I run into people thinking they have to spend $2,000 for axles and that is just not the case for nice 4130 axles.


I've never priced custom axles, but according to one of your past posts in this thread, the axle-shafts are $800 to $1200. Jerry at Camburg says if you go through them they have to to be space-shuttle ready double-throw-down material for about $2000. I understand that's not a lot of money compared to what it costs to build a truck like KD's, but That's a hell of a lot of money to me.


#4 - AWD - TTB is not an AWD. I think only put it in when stuck.

Agreed. LOL

[picone]

It would be intersting to compare full bump between your front end and the D44 conversion.

Cross-over is certainly the best way to go, but I'm not following you on the steering being different between the D44 & D35. The gear box is in a different location, but so are the axle-housing pivot points.

I have pictures of it at bump. I'll look for them. I'm not a fan of drop brackets but I suppose they have their place. Don't tell me the radius arm brackets are dropped too though.

You are changing the pivot points on the Ranger to mimic the F150. The frame width and location of the steering box are different between a Ranger and F150/Bronco. The steering box on both stock setups is located so that the pitman arm is inline with the P/S beam pivot. Move the box one way or the other and the pitman is no longer in line with the pivot. Then you get some not so fancy additional bumpsteer. The frame on an F150 is much wider than the ranger. What you are doing would be like putting a 2+" spacer between the box and the frame on an F150.
I ran into it on a D44TTB conversion on a 2005 Econoline. The Econoline has a much wider frame than a Bronco giving me the same effect just the other direction.

[SimonSays]

Why one want to put a D44 in a Ranger over a converted D35?
You get a more limited up travel, more weight and shorter driveshaft?
The only advantage is a slightly higher gear selection but is that necessary?

I have a Dana 44 on my Ranger (Stock length F-150 beams) it pushes 24" of wheel travel with no u-joint bind thats good for a truck that is only 78" wide. Most people I have seen using the Dana 35 are lucky to get 18-20" being that same width.

[steveG]

You are changing the pivot points on the Ranger to mimic the F150.

Not really. They are specific to the conversion and not in the same place as the Ranger or F150.


The frame width and location of the steering box are different between a Ranger and F150/Bronco. The steering box on both stock setups is located so that the pitman arm is inline with the P/S beam pivot. Move the box one way or the other and the pitman is no longer in line with the pivot. Then you get some not so fancy additional bumpsteer. The frame on an F150 is much wider than the ranger. What you are doing would be like putting a 2+" spacer between the box and the frame on an F150.
I ran into it on a D44TTB conversion on a 2005 Econoline. The Econoline has a much wider frame than a Bronco giving me the same effect just the other direction.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Yes the gear box is not in the same location in relation to the beam pivots, but as far as I've seen, the pitman isn't in front of the passenger beam pivot on the Rangers or F150s. On my Bronco it's 8-10 inches closer to the driver side frame rail.

Having the pitman arm in line with the passenger pitman arm isn't ideal anyway. When I was working on the front end I had planned on building a single swinger steering system. I used the steering pivot at the pitman and the beam pivot to determine the location for the passenger radius arm then put the drivers radius arm in the opposite location. This way, whenever I was ready to upgrade the steering, the geometry for the passenger wheel was already done.

I'll try to get some full bump pics from John.

Thomas, when are you going to post some good pics of your set up?

[picone]

Has to be. That kit has to copy the F-150 mounting points (width, Fore/Aft) to make the stock axles fit lengthwise, make the stock P/S outputshaft pivot in the right spot as to minimize plunge, and keep the right clearance between beams. Probably more reasons to coyp the factory mounting points if I thought about it.

You're right the ranger pitman is not inline with the pivot. I must have been confusing it with the econoline or something. Either way, the pitman arm to tierod to steering knuckle is all inline with the pivot, same with the P/S but not as long (close as possible anyway). Move the box right or left and you knock it out of line for the minimum bumpsteer on a ranger without a huge pitman drop (especially with the drop brackets).

If you are going wider up front you're probably going to pound it. You should still plate and truss, radius arms better brackets...etc.

[OutToLaunch]

THis is some great info.......... don't want to get everybody in a war but as long as everyone can take some creative critisism(sp?) this is some great 1st hand knowledge.After going over the +'s and -'s sometimes it's hard to justify building a TTB Frt. end.THe more info. the better.I know for most So. Cal, Nevada and even some Arizonan's 2wd is an easy choice.But for people outside of that area sometimes it's hard to justify building a 2wd prerunner. I know that's why I have'nt built one.You just have to have 4x,because of the variables in terrain,weather etc.Hell if I can get one built that perform's well I think there will be a ton of people in my area, ready to build after me. Just my .02 cent's.

[tre5]

I was thinking about doing a d44 swap on a ranger. After reading all the posts I am pretty set on still doing it. Especially after talking with Jon over at AutoFab. That guy is the coolest shop owner out there. He answered any question I asked. He sent me pics. He responded to every email I wrote him, even after I told him I havent even purchased the truck yet. If you ever need anything you should check him out. He was very helpful to me.

[picone]

I was thinking about doing a d44 swap on a ranger. After reading all the posts I am pretty set on still doing it.
I thought you were building model rockets.

[tre5]

Just one rocket, maybe just one Ranger. Got any advice on the ranger?

[picone]

Put the rocket on the ranger.

[tre5]

good idea, then I wouldnt have to put a 302 in it.

[inmymind]

Steve G. you say the STX drop bracket are about the right length for an equal length beams. Any other info on setting up equal length beams would be helpful. This would be on an 86 ranger ex-cab. I can start a new thread if need be since this question is on a two wheel drive application?

[steveG]

I said they were "about the same". I only meant that the distance between the pivot hole and the frame is close between the two. I definitely recommed starting a new thread as this one has turned into a wealth of TTB information and I would hate to take it off track.

[inmymind]

I agree, Its been a great read!!!

[MikeAdams]

I'm in the middle of a d28 build on an 88 supercab with a v6. Obviously, I'm going for budjet as I wouldn't have started with such an old truck to begin with.

Here is what I've got:

Cut beams
STX pivots
Longer radius arms with stock bushings.
(4) 12" Bilsteins (2")
I have what use to be custom buckets with adjusters but the mounting tabs have been cutoff and I can mount them wherever I want.

My question is: What springs will work best for this? I know everyone is running the Eibachs that Camburg sells- is there any other option that will work? Is the Eibach long enough to be able to use all the available travel? Also, I'm going to beat on it- but nothing like what a race truck would go through- so would a 6" lift spring from say Rancho or whatever last, or are they just crap? Anyone know of a link that provides free lengths, spring rates for different brands?

Thanks in advance-

[flyinbronco]

If your working with a Ranger check with John at Autofab they built a 4x4 Ranger using full size 1/2 ton beams. They use stock axles. They do full kits with beams or just needed brackets and you supply 1/2 beams. Cool set up. Check last months issue of Off Road magawww.autofab.com/mdl_44_ranger.htmzine.

[steveG]

I'm in the middle of a d28 build on an 88 supercab with a v6. Obviously, I'm going for budjet as I wouldn't have started with such an old truck to begin with.

Here is what I've got:

Cut beams
STX pivots
Longer radius arms with stock bushings.
(4) 12" Bilsteins (2")
I have what use to be custom buckets with adjusters but the mounting tabs have been cutoff and I can mount them wherever I want.

My question is: What springs will work best for this? I know everyone is running the Eibachs that Camburg sells- is there any other option that will work? Is the Eibach long enough to be able to use all the available travel? Also, I'm going to beat on it- but nothing like what a race truck would go through- so would a 6" lift spring from say Rancho or whatever last, or are they just crap? Anyone know of a link that provides free lengths, spring rates for different brands?

Thanks in advance-

Did you ever get anywhere with this build, Mike?

[MikeAdams]

Funny you ask...

I just had a two week break from school so it was my goal to get some stuff done. After many calculations, ponderings, musings, bla bla I got the buckets exactly where I wanted them. Cut out some nice pieces and fully welded them up. The whole time I noticed they stuck out a little far, but didn't think anything of it.

Originally, they were run with full sized springs pushed way back on the frame?? but not too sure where. I aquired some 6" superlifts and made an educated guess on the spring rate with the calculators over at therangerstation.com.

Since the bucket worked for a full size, and the tabs I welded it to were 1/4", when I stuck a tire and wheel on it, it would hit the bucket enough to lose almost 3" of up travel making it about 12" of total travel, with gigantic bumpstops to limit it. Which sucks.

Soooo I've been cleaning up the beams and building gussets here and there for them, trying to figure out a route. Money is really tight as we just came home from a week long vacation and I started summer school today. I may just run the stock buckets and some short little Bilsteins for now, or start over on some buckets of my own, as I just happen to have the material left over from my tubebender stand that would work about perfect.

If money wasn't an option, I would just get the buckets over at Autofab and quit dorking with it. But then I would have to get different shocks. I thought about getting more of a wheel offset, but then I would have to buy different wheels. I may call John and see if he would sell buckets minus the shock hoops, just to get an idea.

The classic money vs time delima.

So if anyone wants some adjustable buckets for extended beams on a Ranger that will work for full size/normal ranger springs, pm me- they are yours...

[steveG]

You can make the stock buckets work. I used to have a set of modified/reinforced stock buckets. They were cut fore and aft the coil seat and plate was added to reinforce them. Plate was also added to the top of the coil seat to make a good flat spot to build a shock hoop from. They were similar to the old Fabtech coil-buckets, just a little heavier.

I tried giving them away for years then finally threw them in the trash... bummer.

FYI: Most "lift kit" coils are tested to about 1.5" to full compression during quality control. If you compress them further than that they'll sag big time.

Keep us posted & ask if you need more info.

[MikeAdams]

FYI: Most "lift kit" coils are tested to about 1.5" to full compression during quality control. If you compress them further than that they'll sag big time.
Keep us posted & ask if you need more info.

I knew they would sag but I wasn't sure how much I could compress them- it's good to know. At first I was hoping on running a Rancho that was 22" long, then came across the others from a buddy that were 19". Come to find out, the 19" spring would more than cycle the limits of the axles. Basically, it seems the best spring is the Eibach, which is what everyone has been telling me all along, but twice the price of the crap springs. Anyone know the extended length on those?

Since I'm not entirely positive on the spring rate the adjustable buckets were very appealing to get a ride height. But, I like your idea on gussetting the stock buckets. I'll piddle around with it tomorrow. I guess that's what eccentrics are for, right? lol.

[steveG]

it seems the best spring is the Eibach, which is what everyone has been telling me all along, but twice the price of the crap springs....

I've never used the Eibach coils. Although I know they're high-quality, the problem I have with them is that they are one-size-fits-all. So this means that a standard cab 4cyl stripper model Ranger gets the same coil as an extended cab 4wd V6 fully-loaded pig. Even on heavy Rangers it seems they are on the stiff side unless the truck is in full race trim.

You might want to look into Autofab's coils. They have several application specific options at fair prices. Their coils are quality control tested by being fully compressed then released just as Eibach does.


Since I'm not entirely positive on the spring rate the adjustable buckets were very appealing to get a ride height. But, I like your idea on gussetting the stock buckets. I'll piddle around with it tomorrow. I guess that's what eccentrics are for, right? lol.

LOL, Oh man. This is how that should read... "That's what everyone THINKS eccentrics are for." I don't think I've ever had to use over a 1/2 degree eccentric in my Autofab front ends. My Bronco aligned with OE zero degree eccentrics (on both sides).

With modified axle-housings the ball joints are already angled some. Add to this a 1.5 or 2 degree bushing (I see that a lot) and you're really taxing the ball joints and asking for breakage.

[DSRacing]

I've never used the Eibach coils. Although I know they're high-quality, the problem I have with them is that they are one-size-fits-all. So this means that a standard cab 4cyl stripper model Ranger gets the same coil as an extended cab 4wd V6 fully-loaded pig. Even on heavy Rangers it seems they are on the stiff side unless the truck is in full race trim.

True, The Eibach Ranger springs are rated at between 600 and 625 in/lbs. I talked directly to Eibach and it is the only spring they make for the coil bucket Rangers. When we purchased our 7s a few years ago it had the Eibach Ranger coils already installed. Our first two races the ride was stiff as h*** and the springs wouldn't allow the suspension to fully compress. We replaced them with springs rated at 400 in/lbs. It was a HUGE improvement in the handling of the truck.

[MikeAdams]

I knew you would get a kick out of that, Steve... The tops of these beams have been cut and moved, I'm assuming to relieve the bind? Not sure because they came with 2 degree eccentrics and blown out balljoints. Strange thing (to me) is that the eccentrics are tapered at an angle, not straight up and down, which makes me think that was supposed to help on the bind as well. Is this common? On my mock frame setup, I used 0's and seem to have a TON of lift, but may have to double check to see if the bj's are at a bad angle.

No matter what, I'm going to stick with the springs I have, which should be around 500in/lbs by my calcs, and change them out to whatever I need. Just need to decide on a bucket. In the mean time, I'll keep cleaning up the beams a little more and get them assembled.

Thanks for the info on the Eibachs, DSracing...

[Jerry Zaiden]

True, The Eibach Ranger springs are rated at between 600 and 625 in/lbs. I talked directly to Eibach and it is the only spring they make for the coil bucket Rangers. When we purchased our 7s a few years ago it had the Eibach Ranger coils already installed. Our first two races the ride was stiff as h*** and the springs wouldn't allow the suspension to fully compress. We replaced them with springs rated at 400 in/lbs. It was a HUGE improvement in the handling of the truck.

The Eibach Ranger spring is a Camburg spring made for us by Eibach. They are a 500lb spring not a 600 lb. These trucks need bypass shocks with correct tube placement to utilize the full potential of the suspension. A light truck like yours might be able to use a lighter spring but most can't. We have a new spring coming from Eibach with a smaller wire and more compression wheel travel. They will be available late June early July.
Another thing with these springs is the way they are made... They will not fatigue like all other springs. Eibach is the highest quality spring on the market. They cost more for a reason!

[B_burk]

I'm running stock width D35 TTB's from Camburg, whats the deal with switching out to the Dana 44 gear? Any benefits besides bigger brake rotors?