Spindle and steering knuckle for our race truck

[JasonHutter]

We have been talking about doing new spindles for our race truck for some time now and want to get it done before Laughlin if we can. I'm sure some have noticed we haven't flown the leap in our truck and the biggest reason is we are on stock Toyota 2wd spindles and the knuckles have been gusseted. Even without flying the leap we have been cracking the spindles on the shoulder right next to the bearing surface. I have a couple of questions. (I really haven't looked into anything yet, just thought I would put it on here for some ideas) If we took just the spindle from a stock Toyota 4wd and built the steering knuckle for it. Will it be strong enough for one, and two, can we buy hubs and something maybe from Willwood for breaks on the front that will all work together? Or, should we call Sandy Cone and get a spindle from him and build our knuckles off of that and get hubs and breaks to match? Any ideas would help on top of the ones I have or an idea about my conclusions.

Thanks,
Jason

This is what we are running now and want something more stout!
http://www.aor4x4.com/fgspin7pd.jpg

[curt]

I always like the idea of trying to build a set of 4 runner spindles to go on ours. I assume they have to be stronger to carry the weight and forces of the 4wd heavy truck/station wagon...Patty's 4-runner has 4 piston calipers so they would better match the metric GM calipers we put on the back as well giving us improved braking balance and power, since we took off the power brakes and went with Willwood pedals our brakes have been a bit lacking even with a couple of master cylinder changes to get it right.

With a uniball upper and lower adapting to our a-arms should be fairly easy, just have to chech the steering geometry to see how to make it work. If your hot on using Willwood, check out their website and see which vehicles they offer the kits for and start looking at the spindles to see what's the best donor to use. As overbuilt as Toyota's are you should be able to find something that works Tundra or T100 maybe...Curt

[YotaWhoopRunner]

Jason just a thought, but wouldn't a 4wd spindle be weaker since it's hollow to allow for the 4wd axle shaft and hub?

[drtdevil93]

im doing that same thing on my truck right now. 2wd 4runner spindle, i just cut an inch around the snout, and the spindle is all chromoly plate, with the snout welded on to it. the 4runner assembly is very strong. it has big wheel bearings, a much bigger snout, and the stock brakes that are on there are about the strongest out there (4 piston calipers and the rotor is like 12 or 13"). i like that idea better than using an aftermarket spindle/hub setup, as i can go get parts for mine at any autozone or salvage yard.

erik

[curt]

Erik, "I cut an inch around the snout" I haven't looked at a 2wd 4runner spindle...What's the cut for? How about posting a pic? BTW, are the 2WD's using a 5 lug or a 6 lug?Thx, Curt

[drtdevil93]

the cut is because i was going with a custom boxed spindle. i just cut a big square around it, but kept the caliper mounts in place. the 2wd is basically the same as the 4wd, only difference is there are caps on the front and back of the snout, where on the 4wd there is an axle running through it. the 2wd just meant i wouldnt have to make caps to block it off.

erik

[Dave_G]

Jason,
Running a bolt on spindle like the one in the attached pic is really a good way to go if you can work it out on your vehicle. This allows you to fabricate from scratch the upright and weld it together without killing the heat treat in the spindle. This also allows you to make the spindle out of some killer material that you can't otherwise make an upright out of or weld on. The ones in the pic I just did for a customer here on Race-dez and they fit into a stock ford 4X4 upright that has been beefed up and converted to 2wd. They are 300M heat treated to Rc 53 and finish machined after heat treat. These spindles when assembled with a sleeve between the bearing races will last a life time. Many of the top TT teams like Herbst, Enduro, Vortec etc. have used this type of setup.

Dave

[CRAIGHALL]

Dave those look solid why not hollow or a tapered bore?

Kartek has some bolt on 2" snouts 8-3/8"bolts- 3.75 B.C. mounting surface is machined to leave the center to register on your spindle.Probable need a custom hub to work though.

[ntsqd]

The LA 4WD yota spindles are pretty stout parts & I suspect that the IFS parts are similar. If you opt to use either I would leave them as bolt-on parts for the reasons Dave G gave. There is an advantage to having a hollow center beyond the obvious weight savings. I believe the sectional transistion from spindle pin to flange is actually better (stronger) with a hollow pin than with a solid pin. Reason being that the change in section is more gradual which is less of a stress riser. Radiusing the transition from the ID to the flange would help this further. The middle third of any shaft doesn't offer you much in the way of strength, so unless you're on the ragged edge with a solid pin I would core the spindle pins and polish the bores smooth.
The LA spindles have an 8 bolt, 5.100" BC asymetric pattern with a 4.325" pilot register. Don't know about the IFS spindles.

You can plug the center hole with a freeze plug. I would NOT tack them in. If you're concerned about them coming out, use some sort of an epoxy during their install.

Brakes, the LA (& I believe the IFS) rotors are just at 12" OD and both the LA & IFS calipers are 4 piston fixed iron bodies. Those on the Taco PreRunner's are aluminum bodies and appear to have the same mounting bolt pattern. Using the IFS package nets you a vented rotor, the LA rotors are solid (bleah!!!). You can use FJ60 rotors on the LA wheel hubs to get vented rotors. Since you're not limited with where the caliper mounting ears are, you may also be able to use the IFS rotors on the LA wheel hubs.

[JasonHutter]

Hey, thanks for the replies. I really like the idea of the bolt-on spindle. The ones pictured look really nice. Do all spindles like that need to be custom made for us, or does one of the manufactures/fabricators out there have something that you can buy that works with a certain hub?

Thanks,
Jason

[SLR]

Are you racing 7s or 7 open?? I would run the same set-up as your truck was built for, Maybe the 4 runner set-up??
With Dave G option you will now run 7open in SCORE. MDR may be a different story. I watched your truck @ MDR300 and it look like one of the better 7s truck out their coming down Pit Road. Who cares about the "Laughlin Leap" Roll it and save the truck. Jason from TUBE-WORKS built a pretty trick 7s upright with bolt on snout (attached). Good luck Fire Guys!
I'm also working on a bolt-in 4340 snout with a 4130 upright block to resale. Off the self hubs.

[Dave_G]

RE: " those look solid why not hollow or a tapered bore?"

Craig,
It has more to do with the way the customer wants them than anything else. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif Some people don't want them hollow and worry about trying to plug the bore to keep out water and dust from the bearings. The ones I made for the Vortec Trailblazers were hollow and as I recall they had some issues with reliably plugging the bores efficently to keep the water out. Some I've made were hollowed through the back to a blind bottom bore so they looked solid but wern't. I know for fact that Dan from Enduro Racing hit a tree stump with one and tore the entire spindle off the upright down in Mexico a few years back. The chase crew was able to bolt the spindle back on and they finished the race. That spindle was solid and remains on the car to this day.

Dave

[Josh_K]

Where have I seen those spindles?

You know one more idea for you and cheaper too. Use stock f-150 4wd pieces. The spindles are the exact same size, just hollow. I switched to the wazoo ones because I was breaking the stock one hitting things at 90 mph with a 6200 lbs truck.

If the rules that you are under allow you to make this mod, I think you would be fine because your truck is probably almost half the weight and speed.

[firedog]

here are the rules from the BITD rule book in regards to Spindles:
<font color="red"> Suspension components
Any manufacturer spindles may be used and may be reinforced.

</font color>
A Couple of Questions: Dalton8driver- What year F150 spindles would work??
Dave_G: Where would we pick up a set of those snouts in the picture?? How much $$ do they cost??
ntsqd: This will probably make sense when you tell me but I can't figure it out right now, what do you mean by LA 4wd spindles??

thanks for all your input, It's not so much flying the leap but we are cracking our spindles that we are running right now and would rather put something stronger on there before we break them. Thanks Again...
Paul

[Dave_G]

RE: "Where have I seen those spindles?"

Kragen maybe?

lol....

They were the only examples of a bolt on spindle I had out of all the one's I've made. Their going to work great cuz I know they've been proof tested by the one and only Dave Crashley. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave

[Dave_G]

Jason,
There are certainly lots of options here and one you might consider is to make the spindle a flanged bolt on style with the snout the same dimensions as what you are running now. That would allow you to run your existing hubs without making new ones but I'm not sure if that would work for your application or not. Call me if you need more info.

Dave
Advanced Machining Dynamics
(909) 884-7393

[CRAIGHALL]

I've seen alot of things stuffed into the spindles to plug them,I saw one set with some sort of rubber ball epoxied into it.

[Josh_K]

Hay, I dont mind. I think its the only thing on my truck thats not shade tree and worthy of the Internet.

The stock spindle that you would wont to look for are from an (I think) 83 to around 92 f-150 4wd front end (ttb). Just make sure that you get the ones that are 6 bolt. Some time around 93 or 94 they went to 5 bolt. They are actually a Dana 44 part that has one of two minor changes for Ford. If you wont to do this get the hub and brake disk with it. The hub and disk are bullet proof and just little heaver then alum parts. The stock spindles run just under $100 each. Plus the bolt pattern for the wheel is 5 on 5.5.

But if money isnt a problem call Dave. They are bitchen.

[TDORSloppy]

These may be of interest to you...
http://www.kartek.com/prod-windows/race/brakes/prm-2inbhsr.jpg

We sell these at Kartek for $170 each retail. They are made of billet 4130 chromoly, we do sell the timken bearings that work with them but the actual hubs that are needed are in process of being made. The actual snout is 2" O.D. BTW

PM me if you have any more questions.

[Dave_G]

RE: "They are made of billet 4130 chromoly"

Any particular reason you went with the 4130 and what are they heat treated to?

Dave

[hoeker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
You know one more idea for you and cheaper too. Use stock f-150 4wd pieces. The spindles are the exact same size, just hollow. I switched to the wazoo ones because I was breaking the stock one hitting things at 90 mph with a 6200 lbs truck

[/ QUOTE ]
many of the unlimited CORR trucks(pro 2 and 4) use these spindles with no issues on trucks in the 4500lb range. i hear the guys using them like the ones out of scrap yards and not new pieces though. i am looking at these for my next truck, not sure yet.

www.rosshoek.com (http://www.rosshoek.com)

[TDORSloppy]

Dave,

I mis-posted, they are actually 4340 non-heat treated. We only heat treat our ground Trophy Truck snouts cause of the weight. These 2" snouts are made for lighter prerun cars and trucks and heat treating them is not needed. Race trucks, like the Fire Guys 7S, would be able to run these as well.

Oh, and one other feature is these are not flat on the flange side. They sit in a 2-7/8" hole on the upright about 1/4" deep so the stress isn't only on the bolts.

[Dave_G]

RE: "Oh, and one other feature is these are not flat on the flange side. They sit in a 2-7/8" hole on the upright about 1/4" deep so the stress isn't only on the bolts."

I've never seen flat ones. All of them have registers on the back side as far as I know. The ones in the photo just don't show up the register very well at the angle the picture was taken.

Dave

[Dave_G]

Jason,
Holy crap! I just noticed this in the photo you posted but are your uprights plated with Yellow Zinc by any chance? If so, I think you may be experiencing a hydrogen embrittlement problem that may be contributing to your cracking problem. Plating stuff like that is a absolute NO NO unless you hydrogen bake it and even that is an iffy deal. What's the story?

Also, I just remembered a way to beef up your spindles and stay within the BITD rules. We beefed up some Jeep spindles on a 7S car in the mid 80's that solved the exact cracking problem your talking about and we stayed within the rules. We made a spindle sleeve that pressed over the existing spindle and clamped up tight against the upright face with the spindle nut. We had to use larger bearings ans an SKF nut and a different hub but it worked just fine. The sleeve took a lot of the bending load out of the stock spindle.

Dave

[ntsqd]

LA = Live Axle.

Dave, I've been looking at those pics and hadn't flashed on the embrittlement probability until you wrote something. Paint them if you must, but I'd run them with coats of boiled Linseed oil.

I've seen similar spindle pin sleaves sold for roundy cars to convert a stock spindle to work with either Wide 5 or 5x5 hubs. Those thread onto the stock pin's threads. A little tensile loading of the original pin would do wonders for it's bending strength. Build a sleave that uses either the IFS or the LA wheel bearings and then use those respective hubs. Some later model IFS' came with drive flanges instead of locking hubs. You can use those to blank off the wheel bearing nut side of the wheel hubs. AOR likely has some lying around since all crawler types dump that system for locking hubs.

[geoff]

have you seen the t100 spindles? they are the beefier version of the stock 2wd, same design just amplified. I am using them on my setup, but building them like total chaos builds their uniball kits

[Greg]

Dave, why do they zink plate grade8 and f-911 bolts? not to be a smart-ass, but would bare bolts be better?

[gary]

from desertrides, expo pics section
http://desertrides.com/photo/expo03/DSC05326.jpg

[partybarge_pilot]

"Dave, why do they zink plate grade8 and f-911 bolts? not to be a smart-ass, but would bare bolts be better?"

Not zinc, yellow cad.......

[Dave_G]

Greg,
Those bolts are probably hydrogen baked after plating which should take care of any problems. Also, the higher the rockwell the more of a problem hydrogen embrittlement becomes and the 911 bolts probably are not that high on the rockwell scale to begin with. A non aerospace approved plating shop won't even bother to hydrogen bake for a customer because it is very time consuming and costs money that is unless the customer is sharp enought to request it. http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif The real problem starts with the electroplating process itself. If you can plate with a non-electro process you don't run the risk of HE. That's why electroless nickel is a very popular plating in the aerospace biz. Electroplating coatings like Chrome, Cad and Zinc are usually never applied to high tensile strength materials.

Dave

[SLR]

If you wanna have Stout spindles go with the floater snout and fabricated upright. If you wanna run budget minded, Go with a Nissan 99-04 4wd spindle or a Hardbody. We have new Alum Hubs for both and other trick parts.
In my opinion I think you could get by with Stock Toyo spindle, Look @ the "icon" going big as the "Laughlin Leap" Every weekend. Do you guys have any problems with cracking??
Also S&amp;S always go big @ the leap, Stock Concept.
Not talking your welder down, it just looks like ALOT of heating and welding to a part that was not designed to be welded. Not saying you can't weld a FORGED spindle its just seems hydrogen embrittlement must happen when a part is HT from the manufacture, then is welded and cooled ETC.
I think OEM parts can be raced with 33" tires 1-3 races without replacing parts. 35" a different story.
Plus think all the fab work and $ it will take to rebuild your truck to your new parts. Run what you got, It works great!
Have the NEW spindles PH and TIG for optimum performance under critical conditions. Good luck&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;SLR

[geoff]

does total chaos heat treat or preheat their spindles prior to modification?

[ACID_RAIN28]

What is the deal with the aluminum hubs? as in the differance between steel and aluminum, I always thought aluminum hubs were for light weight roundy round, sand cars, and steel hubs were for bigger trucks and heavy off road use?

[SLR]

All TT run Alum hubs. It cost more $ but is less unsprung wieght???DISCO??? We use 6061T-6 to run larger wheel studs and other addtional features.
GEOFF-When welding Mass to .125 plate or in general PH part to insure penitration.
Dave G what would be optimum welding process and N or SR to a Forged spindle or steering knuckle to ensure strenght?

[drtdevil93]

dan actually did have cracks forming on his spindle after a season. i dont know if they made a change to the spindle or snout, but he now has billet hubs on it...

erik

[ntsqd]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
what would be optimum welding process and N or SR to a Forged spindle or steering knuckle to ensure strenght?

[/ QUOTE ]

Were I working for a decent budget: Anneal part, PH &amp; weld as needed, make RIGID HT fixture, HT to original part spec.

[geoff]

eric -- on dans truck, when his spindle had all the cracks, is that with the total chaos spindle or the earlier version? I have heard rumors of TC spindles cracking, but figured since ive never seen one it was all BS...

There is a ton of material added on the TC version, so i assumed that while it must be stronger, there are more than likely a ton of stres risers and residual stresses built up after welding.

[fishd00d]

It has nothing to do with the modification that makes it crack. On Dans truck it only cracks on the very top of where the snout goes into the backplate. It gets a hairline crack there everytime it happens. There is no way to really modify the stock one to make it any better either.....

[geoff]

have you ever compared the 4wd toy spindles, the 2wd t100 spindles and the 2wd pickup spindles side by side?

where the snout goes into the backplate, that is where they clearnaced for the uniball, correct? Would it make more sense to clearance the uniball cup, rather than the spindle?

[WFODAN]

Actually Geoff , the spot that the spindle cracked is about two inches above the spot that they are clearenced for the uniball . It is the only factory part of the spindle that is still used . Without going with a totally aftermarket spindle there is no way to cure it . Also remember that my truck goes threw alot more abuse then the average truck might . It's not really a weak point in my eyes though , as I believe that the spindles would last the life of the truck if I didn't abuse it the way I do . This next race will complete an entire racing season on them . So far I have had to replace one of them . I still have it as a spare though . It was by no means destroyed , and to tell you the truth I had to have the crack pointed out to me , because I couldn't really even see it with my eyes . Like i said , it is the factory piece that fatigues , and ended up cracking .

As for the comparrison of the T100 2wd spindle .......... I've looked at them , but the steering was a bit different on them so I never really put alot of time into it . Also they really didn't look any too different at the snout then the normal 2wd spindles we run now . I'm not sure what would need to be done to run the 4wd spindles ( brakes , hubs, rotors , calipers , etc...) , but I'm happy with the spindles on the truck , so like I said I didn't really look into either of the other ones too deep .

[fishd00d]

You would have to modify the T100 ones a bunch and I dont think it could even be done because their steering is a rack style with the steering in the rear.....

The 4wd spindles are totally different all together and could not be used at all.

[Dave_G]

RE: "the spot that the spindle cracked is about two inches above the spot that they are clearenced for the uniball "

Dan,
I'll bet that some good quality shot peening in that area would go a long way in preventing the cracks.
Metal Improvement Company in Vernon is probably one of the best shot peen shops around.

http://www.metalimprovement.com/

Best,
Dave

[ntsqd]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The 4wd spindles are totally different all together and could not be used at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they can be used. You could either modify them to fit OVER the 2wd spindle pin and weld or bolt them on. Or build a custom upright to bolt them to. You could use one of something like this: Impala spindle to 3/4t adapter (http://www.secureperformanceorder.com/afcostore/getproduct.cfm?CategoryID=8&amp;ClassID=108&amp;SubclassID =507&amp;ProductID=1609)

For your effort you would get bigger wheel bearings and a much larger OD root radius where the 'pin' transitions into the flange/upright. FWIW you're at the same point in the design/failure curve that lead beam car buggy people to quit trying to reinforce the stock spindle and move on to building something burly.

[WFODAN]

What it actually did Dave , was compression fractured the factory ridge that is cut into the spindle . I may be explaining it wrong as I am no machinist , but I can tell you what I see and explain it as cruedly(sp) as I do . Around the snout there are a few rings cut into the material . What happened is it bent the snout up and cracked around the top of the rings . I only noticed something was wrong because the camber changed on the wheel . When we took it apart we found that the snout was bent up a few degrees and then after about an hour we noticed the tiny hairline cracks in the top of the rings . As I said , the spindles are fine . I beleive that anything will fatigue over time , and as I said before , they were by no means destroyed or broken . The factory piece just couldn't handle the abuse . After getting the hubs I have now for the truck , I wouldn't mind getting a new snout made out of some stronger material within the factory specs that would be a bolt in application . Then we could just make an upright from scratch and bolt in the snout when done . I hope I explained it good enough to understand . Thanks for your advice .

[geoff]

hey fish -- you might be mistaken.

the t100 spindles i have would work. they are literlaly identical to those of the 2wd pickup spindles, yet are just bigger. and the part that bolts to the spindle with two bolts (the one that the tierod attaches to and everyone gussets) is way beefier

[SLR]

Hey GEOFF, Snap a photo of your spindles...
Finished WTF Racing Hardbody Spindles to Run Vorra and 1000, Will see how they hold up...

[ntsqd]

Anyone got a pic of Dan's spindle ?

SLR, the failure point of that spindle I expect will be at the root of the transition from the inner bearing surface to the seal surface. Most all 2wd and Passenger car spindles are made like that. The sudden increase in diameter forms a massive stress riser there. You would actually be better off turning the seal surface off the spindle pin and putting in a huge radius that gently flares the inner bearing surface out to the rest of the spindle. Then turn a spacer sleave with the seal surface OD on it. Put an O-ring land in it's ID for sealing it to the pin. As I recall VW link pin spindles are built this way. They fail because they are wimpy, but the design concept is sound. This type of stress riser is also why Summers Bros uses the gold spacer/bearing shoulder on their semi-floater axles.

SLR, I tried to respond to your PM, but it says your current settings won't allow it.

[SLR]

I know the snout is fushion or laser welded and remachined.
What is the process of HT in OEM aplications???What would be the POST weld treating process to a OEM ALT. SPINDLE.(MTI,SHOTPEEN,SR,ETC) WTF Spindle was: PH, TIG,3-5 min air cool, lite WD on rag, Blown gun to room temp, sit to cool.
WTF is budget racing with 31" tires. I hope the Balljoints fail before the spindle. A Nissan UCA Balljoint has a spring in the PIN\CUP. WEAK LINK http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[geoff]

i will be sure to take some pics tomorrow for you. here is a pic of the 4wd spindle

http://www.esbfab.com/newlowerarms09.jpg

and heres a bad pic of a 2wd spindle

http://www.full-race.com/truck/spindle1.jpg

the t100s come tomorrow, although i havent yet taken the hub off, im quite sure they look identical to the 2wd toy spindle. Can someone measure a stock 4wd spindle for me, and give me a center to center measurement on the lower to upp balljoints? The t100 is about 11" and i think the toy is like 9.5" i cant remember 100% tho.

[fishd00d]

If I am not mistaken the 2wd T100 also uses a Rack system. Not a box....and the steering is in the REAR of the spindle. The 2wd Toyota uses a idler arm and pitman arm in the FRONT of the spindle.....

[Dave_G]

RE: "the failure point of that spindle I expect will be at the root of the transition from the inner bearing surface to the seal surface. "

Thom,
Why not just make a custom spacer that goes between the bearings and just torque the spindle nut to a good spec? The sleeve will set the bearing clearance and also increase the spindle stiffness to take the bending loads out of that corner transition area.

Dave

[Dave_G]

RE:"and the steering is in the REAR of the spindle. "

Hey Fish,
Be a real man and just learn to turn the steering wheel the opposite direction! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Oooh wait, I got an idea. Maybe you could build the next General like that and sell driving time in it at ROR.

lol

Dave

[geoff]

i dont know what the steering linkage is setup like, becuase ive never looked at a t100 up close, but the spindles are setup the same with the steering link going in the front.

ask curtis guise, i got these spindles from him.

[JasonHutter]

Dan is explaining the exact same thing that is happening to ours. We don't crack them right away, but the constant bending of it up and down while pounding through the whoops they eventually crack on the top and bottom of the pin. They have been making it through about a season of racing and will crack around the last couple of races. We know they are cracked but still run them at the end of the year when the budget is dry. I just want to know that if we ever run a 1000 in the truck I don't have to have that thought in the back of my head at 55-60 mph through the whoops. The two idea's we are probably going to look into is getting a bolt on spindle and build our own uprights, and maybe getting Dave G or someone to make us a sleve to put on the existing spindles.

Jason

[curt]

Hey guy's, I need to inspect our spindles this weekend before our last race, we've been running them for years and I'm hoping someone might be willing to snap a shot of a bad one or at least a shot with a pointer or two on where to concentrate my looking. We did snap one early this year right at the rear of the bearing so I will concentrate looking there but if there's somewhere else please let me know, I want to eliminate the potential for a problem at the race. Thanks, Curt

[Curtis Guise]

yeah Geoff is right. The 2wd T100's do use a rack but its in front where the center link usually is. And the spindle looks the same as a pre '95 2wd Toyota. I don't think they made T100's with the Tacoma type steering and suspension, unless they did it the last couple of years.

[JasonHutter]

Curt, that is where we are having the cracks form. It is right at the rear of the inner bearing surface just before it gets bigger for the inner seal.

Jason

[ntsqd]

Dave, that would help but then what you essentially have is a stack of precision 'washers' that you're trying to compress with a center bolt and turn into a larger OD pin. That's only going to work so well and then the 'washers' will ever so slightly slip against each other and allow the pin to bend.

With out a doubt if the rules require the stock 2wd spindle and the stock size front wheel bearings then I would do exactly as you propose. Some of the Vintage cars I've worked on came from the factory like that, Fiat's no less!!!

For those that are lost, what Dave is propsing is the exactly same thing as the solid spacer for the pinion bearings of the Yota 8" diff (instead of the crush sleave). You set the bearing preload with the spacer's length, not the nut's torque. That allows you to run the nut really tight which turns the bearing inner races and the spacer nearly into a larger OD spindle 'pin.' Jason &amp; Dan, you might try this and see what it does for the life span of your spindles. I'm quite sure it will increase it - possibly even to an exceptable lifespan, but ultimately they will still crack.

Curt, not that cracks can't form in other places but point where the spindle pin goes from the inside of the inner wheel bearing and steps up in diamter to the seal surface is the #1 highest stress riser in the whole part.

[curt]

TS you bring up another interesting possibility for me, will a solid apcer in the 8" possibly cut down on the broken pinion gears we've been going through but getting rid of the crush sleeve? Thx, Curt

[geoff]

ok i took some pics tonite of the spindles, here is the stock pre '95 spindle

ball joint to ball joint
http://www.full-race.com/490/fabrication/spindles/DSC00002.JPG

puny tie rod attachment thing
http://www.full-race.com/490/fabrication/spindles/DSC00004.JPG


here are the pics of the t100 spindle

ball joint to ball joint
http://www.full-race.com/490/fabrication/spindles/DSC00007.JPG

much more metal around the spindle/upright and the brake mount area
http://www.full-race.com/490/fabrication/spindles/DSC00012.JPG

wayyyy beefier tie rod attachement thing
http://www.full-race.com/490/fabrication/spindles/DSC00010.JPG

[matt_helton]

"tie rod attachment thing" -------&gt; steering knuckle. just fyi.

[WFODAN]

The main problem with the T100 spindle , is that to run it on my front end you'd have to ditch the steering knuckle and make something totally different . Remember the uniball runs on top of the lower mounting point of the spindle . That's right where the steering knuckle is . The benefit of the pre 95 2wd spindle is that you can reverse the steering knuckle to gain room for the uniball cup . As for more material on the upright , that's not where mine cracked . As I said mine cracked in the ring that the factory has cut in the face of the spindle just past where seal rides . Either way though , let me know how the T100 spindles work for you .

[Dave_G]

RE:"That's only going to work so well "

About a 40% increase in spindle strength. I'll take that any day.... http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

[geoff]

hey dan -- actaully you can flip the "steering knuckle" (thanks guys i was having a brain fart) on the t100 just like on the pickup... same thing =)

i am flipping the lower on top of that mount, too

[curt]

You might be able to flip the steering knuckle but it's going to lower your tie rod connection point quite a bit from original for existing setups and I'm not sure what that would do to the steering. If you look at the 2 pictures, the mounting points are all fairly close to the 2wd including the steering arm so it might work as a semi bolt in unit as it sits but it would have been nice to get a brake upgrade to either a large single piston or a multiple piston arrangement and we really need some more front brakes for the short course. BTW what is the diameter of the T100 piston? Thanks, Curt

[geoff]

dan and i are referring to flipping the steering knuckle *only* when the balljoing is moved from below the spindle to above it, as in the case of the total chaos lift spindle conversion. Otherwise, it is not necessary to flip it, and it could be used just like normal.

i dont know the diamater of the t100 brake piston, however my roomate has a 4x4 TRD tacoma and his dual piston calipers bolt on...

[ntsqd]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
About a 40% increase in spindle strength. I'll take that any day....


[/ QUOTE ]

So would I. However, what if the whole spindle pin had a bigger OD than the current OD of the inner bearing race ? I'd want that even more and it's relatively simple by going to the 4wd stub spindle.
Another benefit of going to the 4wd stub on a fabricated upright is you get to dump those stupid sliding calipers and either use an aftermarket caliper or the stock 4wd caliper.

Curt, if it looks like your problem comes from deflecting the pinion gear's head then going to the solid spacer will help. I had had a crush sleave relax in my street car. I now build or use a solid spacer anytime I can as I do not trust crush sleaves. Solid spacers also mean that you can replace the pinion seal simply by removing the flange R&amp;Ring the seal, and replacing the flange. With a crush sleave you have to reset the preload which usually means you have to put a new sleave in.

[ntsqd]

Hey, BINGO !!!!

From the Savage TT thread in 'Whatever':
http://www.race-dezert.com/wwwthreads/files/70695-spindle%204.JPG

[partybarge_pilot]

"From the Savage TT thread in 'Whatever':"

You don't even want to know how much he wants for those......

[jeff]

Well I don't really care about the spindle but you've got me wondering how much a pair runs!

Aloha