5/1600 Roll cage help

[Motelcambodia]

OK I done the search asked other racers and I'm still at a loss on getting started.
I'm building a SCORE legal 5/1600 bug.

I been told I need 1 1/2 .095 wall tubing.


Is there any weight savings in using Chromoly if I can not use smaller DIA or thickness ?
Same wall .095 thickness in 4130 as DOM for score rules in a car under 2000 lbs 5/1600 car?



I also read on a older post that a well know racer said he would not ever use 1.5 .095 for the cage around the drivers any more and would go with 1 5/8 .125.

I want to build a safe cage but not over build it and make the car so heavy its not completive.
1.5 VS 1.75 Is 12LBS more in 50 foot of 4130.

What should I use?
I need to get started ASAP and my rule book still not showed up??

So just tell me what to use and i will go get started. I have 100's of photos of legal Cages in 5/1600 that raced in Score

What I would like to know is how far behind the B pillar are most of you putting the second hoop? I see most is behind the pillar some. I'm 6 foot tall and will have the seat back .The rear position in the stock VW seat works so I will go off that.
I plan on bending the front A piller upright like this photo from this Screen shot from
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc8Fb5w7Pkg for leg clearance. http://i34.tinypic.com/r932jd.jpgAnd build other parts similar to what Gonzo racing had done.

I have access to a cage builder but can only bend 1 3/4 . I can have it bent at a other place 1 1/2 but they don't know cages I just need to show them what I want.

What should I do what should I use? Any one have set of plans for roll cage?

Thanks
Brian

[Gonzo 5/1600]

I know you've already heard from me.:) But as I've suggested 1.5" diameter .095" wall 4130 is what you'll find most all modern 5/1600 cars constructed from. You can certainly go heavier on the tubing but it's not necesary in my opinion, limited classes are pretty weight sensitive.

[Motelcambodia]

I know you've already heard from me.:) But as I've suggested 1.5" diameter .095" wall 4130 is what you'll find most all modern 5/1600 cars constructed from. You can certainly go heavier on the tubing but it's not necesary in my opinion, limited classes are pretty weight sensitive.

Yes It is what I was planning on using. But finding a cage builder up near me that has die's for 1.5 is looking like there is none. 50 foot of tubing was a 10lbs more going 1.75
I'm still looking for some one to bend 1.5 .

How far back did you set your rear hoop from the B pillar or door frame?

Do you think 1.75 is going to be much noticeably larger then 1.5? 1/4" donut seem much.

Brian

[Wilson]

Brian,

We built our car with 1.5X.095 4130, you can certainly use bigger tubing and have a "safer" cage. Ultimately, though, the only "safe" race car is one that you never drive. So, it becomes a series of compromises balancing safety and performance. We decided that using 1.5" X .095" 4130 was a good balance of the two.

There are no real weight savings to be had in the choice of material; 4130 is stronger than mild steel but weighs essentially the same. The size of the tubing you choose does make a weight difference though. 5/1600's are very weight sensitive - just a few pounds makes a big difference.

SCORE has specific elements that they require your cage to include. It also requires that those elements be built with specific materials. The nature of the class requires additional cage elements beyond the SCORE requirements (front and rear shock mounts, beam supports, etc.). You can use whatever material type and dimensions you want there......

As far as "plans" for a roll cage - never seen any (and that Chenowth class 11 cage kit you can buy isn't SCORE "legal"). I've seen lots of 5/1600 cages that look similar to one another, but no two the same. Look around, steal the best ideas and incorporate them into "your" design.

[Motelcambodia]

Brian,

We built our car with 1.5X.095 4130, you can certainly use bigger tubing and have a "safer" cage. Ultimately, though, the only "safe" race car is one that you never drive. So, it becomes a series of compromises balancing safety and performance. We decided that using 1.5" X .095" 4130 was a good balance of the two.

There are no real weight savings to be had in the choice of material; 4130 is stronger than mild steel but weighs essentially the same. The size of the tubing you choose does make a weight difference though. 5/1600's are very weight sensitive - just a few pounds makes a big difference.

SCORE has specific elements that they require your cage to include. It also requires that those elements be built with specific materials. The nature of the class requires additional cage elements beyond the SCORE requirements (front and rear shock mounts, beam supports, etc.). You can use whatever material type and dimensions you want there......

As far as "plans" for a roll cage - never seen any (and that Chenowth class 11 cage kit you can buy isn't SCORE "legal"). I've seen lots of 5/1600 cages that look similar to one another, but no two the same. Look around, steal the best ideas and incorporate them into "your" design.

Thanks,
I will just have to find some one to bend 1.5 or buy a bender like you and other said weight is a big thing for 5/1600 cars.
I will be going 1.5 .095 4130 , I'm going to build the main cage build and then maybe taking the car to So cal to have some of the suspension tubing done.

Im going to steal all the ideas I can Using ideas from your build and others .

The Suspension is the number one thing I want to get right the first time.

Brian

[Gonzo 5/1600]

The Suspension is the number one thing I want to get right the first time.



Suspension is pretty much the trickiest part to get just right (in terms of tuning), don't be too surprised if it takes some time to get it where you are completely happy with it.

[Motelcambodia]

Suspension is pretty much the trickiest part to get just right (in terms of tuning), don't be too surprised if it takes some time to get it where you are completely happy with it.

Yes I know.. and dont be too surprised when I do get it right you see me fly past you :D

Just joking Im hoping to just make it to the finish on my first race.

Brian

[Motelcambodia]

OK this is what I come up with on drawing on the left if I understand the rules is how it can be made . The solid colors are one piece tube. The cage one the left is what I will build to meet the rules , The one one the right is with some added bars .
My idea on the side drawing is two bars bent so there is no X only a smooth rounded joint and the rear diagonal down to the rear torsion bar tube.
Im thinking the bottom drawing with the rear hoop going to the down to the rear torsion bar tube and not have the other bar. I seen lots like this.

Look right? Comments? Changes?
1.5 .095 4130

http://i35.tinypic.com/2i9i3jm.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/2ecdc7b.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/200zccj.jpg

[TROPHYSEDAN]

Hi
We sell a pre bent cage kit out of DOM or Chromolly .090 , 1 1/2 they come with floor bars, main cage and door bars. you notch and weld. hope this helps give me a buzz and i can send you some pics.
Thanks Dennis Sletten
kirby1101@aol.com

[Motelcambodia]

Hi
We sell a pre bent cage kit out of DOM or Chromolly .090 , 1 1/2 they come with floor bars, main cage and door bars. you notch and weld. hope this helps give me a buzz and i can send you some pics.
Thanks Dennis Sletten
kirby1101@aol.com

I tryed to send a e mail to ya and it come back undeliverable "reason: 550 kirby1101 IS NOT ACCEPTING MAIL FROM THIS SENDER" ??

I would like to see photos abd is it made for a VV bug?

Brian

[TROPHYSEDAN]

Hi
yes there for class 11 or 5-16.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/TROPHYSEDAN/064700-R1-17-11A_00012.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/TROPHYSEDAN/roofwelded.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/TROPHYSEDAN/53920023.jpg

hope this helps.
Thanks Dennis
try KIRBY1101@aol.com

[Gonzo 5/1600]

Hi
We sell a pre bent cage kit out of DOM or Chromolly .090 , 1 1/2 they come with floor bars, main cage and door bars. you notch and weld. hope this helps give me a buzz and i can send you some pics.
Thanks Dennis Sletten
kirby1101@aol.com

Interesting, never seen a kit before. However .090 won't be accepted by most organizations if the cage goes in a racecar. When ultrasound checking the wall thickness they allow a few thousandths over/under but starting at .090 will put the cage out of legal tollerances at inspection.

[Motelcambodia]

I did not notice the .090 on his first post maybe a typo?
Thanks for the photos of your cage kits? But I'm just going to go with the local fab shop I met with yesterday He made it sound like it was no problem to bend the front and rear hoops he will make a test jig out of some cheep tubing before bending the expensive stuff.
I'm still waiting for my rule book and for a reply from Bill Savage on some drawings I emailed .
Here is some photo drawings of what I'm going to try to build if it meets with Bills approval.
One photo the guys at Gonzo Racing may recognize :) I made some changes to the rear hoop making it go to the torsions bar housing. The diganal bar Im having problems with . I like the X brace idea but not going to the floor. Or one diganal going down only to the sholder belt mounting bar I seen this In cars now racing 5/1600.

Look over my drawings comment on them change them let me know .
Brian
http://i36.tinypic.com/15gxsmb.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/29puhli.jpg

[TROPHYSEDAN]

Its all good. we have 4 cages tagged and there 090. just trying to help. taking one of our cars next week for the yearly inpection for the 1000. Thanks Dennis

[offroadracer]

If it was me and didn't have a bender I would check into a class 11 kit and build off of that. Of course you would
want it to be chromo and .095.
I don't know if what you are trying to do, is legal or not. My thought is that you would want your main hoop behind
the door as perp to the floor pan as you can get it. Then tie the torsion into that. Use only one down bar intead of the X. That way you can get your seat back just a little further, and not be banging your head.

[TROPHYSEDAN]

Sorry after re reading the post they are .095 cages.

[Motelcambodia]

Here is somthing I did not think about is the Radius of the bends 4.5 , 5.5 or 6.5 " Any one know what the most common Radius used? in 1.5 4130 for 5/1600 cars?

Brian

[mcidge]

if your building to score specs. the center radius of the bends may not be less than 3 times the outsie diameter of the rollcage tubing. so it depends on the tubing diameter.
For 1 1/2 tubing this means at least a 4.5in die.

[Motelcambodia]

if your building to score specs. the center radius of the bends may not be less than 3 times the outsie diameter of the rollcage tubing. so it depends on the tubing diameter.
For 1 1/2 tubing this means at least a 4.5in die.



Oh Now its clear . I just was reading it wrong , It all makes sense now.

What would be a common bend in 4130 1.5 ? Can 4130 bend easy a 4.5 radius.
If I was to buy one die what size will do about all the bends I would need?

Brian

[Wilson]

Oh Now its clear . I just was reading it wrong , It all makes sense now.

What would be a common bend in 4130 1.5 ? Can 4130 bend easy a 4.5 radius.
If I was to buy one die what size will do about all the bends I would need?

Brian

We bent every 1.5" tube in our car with a 5.5" radius die (that's what we had...). It worked out fine, though we originally wanted to use a smaller radius die. The SCORE rules specify a minimum bend radius - you can go bigger but not smaller. Depending on your bender, smaller radius bends may be more difficult to do without some sort of "bend failure" (wrinkles, "necking down", etc.). The .095 wall tube bends pretty well, but if you try small radius bends with thinner material in "non-required" elements you may have problems.

[Motelcambodia]

We bent every 1.5" tube in our car with a 5.5" radius die (that's what we had...). It worked out fine, though we originally wanted to use a smaller radius die. The SCORE rules specify a minimum bend radius - you can go bigger but not smaller. Depending on your bender, smaller radius bends may be more difficult to do without some sort of "bend failure" (wrinkles, "necking down", etc.). The .095 wall tube bends pretty well, but if you try small radius bends with thinner material in "non-required" elements you may have problems.


Thanks ,
Thats what I will use then for the 1.5
What size tubing and die did you use for you front shock towers it looks like its a tight bend and come out good.

Brian

[Wilson]

Thanks ,
Thats what I will use then for the 1.5
What size tubing and die did you use for you front shock towers it looks like its a tight bend and come out good.

Brian


Our front shock hoops are 1" 4130. We bent them with a 4" radius die for 1" tubing.

[TROPHYSEDAN]

just got home from checking the cage. PASSED. and DOM 1 1/2 .095 will pass. best of luck with your build.
Dennis

[Motelcambodia]

just got home from checking the cage. PASSED. and DOM 1 1/2 .095 will pass. best of luck with your build.
Dennis

Cool,
Passed SCORE?
Do you have photos of the car that passed? I think shipping would be expensive to where Im at to have a pre bent cage shipped .

Brian