Kawi motor build specs, give me your opinion quick

[rupert14]

Here is what I have coming.

Fundy 880 kit with full race cams (557 duration)
New Kawi crank
New Kawi case with bearings
New aftermarket rods
+4mm intake and exhaust valves
39mm FCR carbs
Water pump upgrade
Dalton clultch cover
Kawi Brute internal gearing


I bought a car that is being built and the builder is close to DASA so Dan is assembling the motor. Is this a good combo for the dezert? The taller gearing keeps the RPM down while the larger bore helps with the low end. I went with a stock crank because I want to keep the bottom end together. Is this too much for a dezert car?

[JoeyD23]

I will tell you it is way too much for a desert car.....these motors when built GET HOT and if you can find a way to keep it cool you should be ok but these guys are cooking 800cc motors left and right in short track let alone a desert race. I dont know anything abou thte Fundy Kit but you may consider calling Weller Racing or Muzzys for insight. Both have extensive experience racing and building big Teryx Motors.

Best of luck, keep us posted on the progress.
You may consider posting your question on UTVUnderground.com to get a broader perspective

[bajaxp]

I am hearing of lots of Kawasaki Terex motors having issues when heavily modified. My recommendation is that you make it reliable for desert racing and if you get beat on speed and/or acceleration...then start getting exotic. I can tell you first hand that you tend to pass more people broken down than 'in anger.' Look who has won the BITD championship for the last three years in a row...not only with speed, but consistancy. But at the end of the day have fun...and finishing is more fun than hand grenading Kawi motors. And cheaper!

[rupert14]

I just won the whiplash series because I never broke down. By the end of the season the combo that worked for me was stock bore & stroke with full head cam work. It was competative but the stock stroke kept things alive. I am very familiar with Weller and they say the Kawi motors are very reliable as Robert Vanbeekem and Austin Kimbrell are both running the same motor they built before last season without issues. Jason has been a big help. I do have a very large radiator and oil cooler that should keep the motor cool. The only reason I was thinking of running the 880 kit is because I am changing the internal gearing to taller gears in order to keep the RPM down. It seems these motors always have problems when winding them up. I can run 70+rpm and never break 10K rpm. So, do you think I should go with a milder cam or are the +4 valves a problem also? The 880 kit has a full thickness cylnder sleeve and Ray at Fundy says he has never had one of these motors have issues but I don't know how much dezert racing he has built for. Also, what compression are you guys running successfully?

[rupert14]

Ok, I spoke with Jason Weller and here is another proposal. Weller's 840 kit, sport cams, use the +4 heads and larger carbs but keep the compression at 10:1 or so. Does that sound better?

[07FJRog]

yes the compression sounds better, there are two dif brute gears BTW.

also you can, and prob have, a machine clutch cap for lower rpms also.

fcr's are great carbs, I think you mean lift is 557, not duration on those cams.
go with the 880. but prob a little less cam

BTW Bobby now has a 1000 kawi for dezert racing :D, just gone through and dynoed yesterday with Chris from Benchmark Performance

[450grl]

Bobby's gonna race dezert??

[rupert14]

yes the compression sounds better, there are two dif brute gears BTW.

also you can, and prob have, a machine clutch cap for lower rpms also.

fcr's are great carbs, I think you mean lift is 557, not duration on those cams.
go with the 880. but prob a little less cam

BTW Bobby now has a 1000 kawi for dezert racing :D, just gone through and dynoed yesterday with Chris from Benchmark Performance

The 880 kit has steel sleeves. Some say it seals much better and has far less oil blow by in the case and others say the nickaseal coating is much better even though it often results in blow by. I am thinking of just running exactly what Jason says because he has done a great job for me in the past. It just means I will have a fundy 880 kit for sale. Oh well, as long as I can hit 75mph in the dirt I will be very happy. What two gear options are available? I thought there was only one. Is the machined clutch cap the same as the overdrive clutch cover?

[JoeyD23]

Sell the Fundy kit and go with Weller. They have a lot of time on these Kawi motors and along with the others racing Kawi's in LOORRS (C&G/Benchmark/Muzzys) have figured out most of the weak points in the motor. Of course desert racing is what you are building yours for so take a little compression out and let her rip!!

[bajaxp]

You are not going to make tech with BITD if it is over 800cc.

[rupert14]

You are not going to make tech with BITD if it is over 800cc.


I thought it was open to 1000cc. How do the Prowler 1000's pass tech?

[bajaxp]

I thought it was open to 1000cc. How do the Prowler 1000's pass tech?

My understanding is that it has to remain 'effectively' the stock displacement. That means Terex, RZR, and Rhino must be 800cc's or below and since the Prowler came stock with approximately 1000 cc's, they can run it. Plus I believe that the Prowler has to be a minimum weight. But your best bet is to call Cory at the UTVRA and get his judging.

But again, my recommendation is to start finishing races and see where you are getting beat...top speed, acceleration, in the whoops, silt, pits, etc and spend your money where it makes the most impact. :)

[rupert14]

My understanding is that it has to remain 'effectively' the stock displacement. That means Terex, RZR, and Rhino must be 800cc's or below and since the Prowler came stock with approximately 1000 cc's, they can run it. Plus I believe that the Prowler has to be a minimum weight. But your best bet is to call Cory at the UTVRA and get his judging.

But again, my recommendation is to start finishing races and see where you are getting beat...top speed, acceleration, in the whoops, silt, pits, etc and spend your money where it makes the most impact. :)

I checked the current rule book and it does have an 800cc limiit unless it came that way from the factory. I am sure I can get a Weller 800 to go plenty fast enough but that seems like a bit of an odd rule. I guess it seems a bit unfair to say these three manufacturers have to stick to 800cc or less but that one can run 950. I understand the weight restriction but it would have to be a lot more weight. Increased displacement means taller gearing, lower rpm's at a given speed, and greater top speed. Most of the races I have been in have atleast one place where the car can be rapped out and I have lost 75 mile races by 12 seconds so every bit counts. I guess 800 it is.

[07FJRog]

Bobby's gonna race dezert??

did not he race one in the mud not long ago? snoflake??? or something?
I guess dezert may be the wrong term Corry. :confused:


My understanding is that it has to remain 'effectively' the stock displacement. That means Terex, RZR, and Rhino must be 800cc's or below and since the Prowler came stock with approximately 1000 cc's, they can run it. Plus I believe that the Prowler has to be a minimum weight. But your best bet is to call Cory at the UTVRA and get his judging.

"effectively stock displacement" that is funny. what determines "effectively"??

The prowlers have a 650 they could run, so if the 1000 is allowed then why not up to 1000 kawis etc... Someone should rethink this, IMO

But again, my recommendation is to start finishing races and see where you are getting beat...top speed, acceleration, in the whoops, silt, pits, etc and spend your money where it makes the most impact. :)

[07FJRog]

I checked the current rule book and it does have an 800cc limiit unless it came that way from the factory. I am sure I can get a Weller 800 to go plenty fast enough but that seems like a bit of an odd rule. I guess it seems a bit unfair to say these three manufacturers have to stick to 800cc or less but that one can run 950. I understand the weight restriction but it would have to be a lot more weight. Increased displacement means taller gearing, lower rpm's at a given speed, and greater top speed. Most of the races I have been in have atleast one place where the car can be rapped out and I have lost 75 mile races by 12 seconds so every bit counts. I guess 800 it is.

I agree with the 950 part, just like a rhino, Arctic Cat has a 650 that can be bored or stroked to meet the under 800 rule. IMO the cat 1000 should not race in the same class, or make them use the 650 prowler, like a rhino has to.

[450grl]

I would have to agree - I would be upset if I was racing an 800 or under with a factory 1000. Current UTV rules should undergo a revamp all across the board, IMO....with all the different motor sizes/types these days, it's just not a single class system like it used to be......

[07FJRog]

I would have to agree - I would be upset if I was racing an 800 or under with a factory 1000. Current UTV rules should undergo a revamp all across the board, IMO....with all the different motor sizes/types these days, it's just not a single class system like it used to be......

good luck on your debut coming up Corry ( stadium)

[bajaxp]

I would have to agree - I would be upset if I was racing an 800 or under with a factory 1000. Current UTV rules should undergo a revamp all across the board, IMO....with all the different motor sizes/types these days, it's just not a single class system like it used to be......

I guess I have to disagree. There is pretty good racing right now and no one manufacturer has an advantage. I would agree if the Artichokes (just joking...don't freak out) were smoking the field with their 1000cc motors, but they are not. Plus Cory proved that 'Old Yeller' can still run with the big dogs at the Terribles 250. What we need in desert racing (to get cred) is an increased car count, increased speeds (versus other classes) and increased finishing rate. If we just keep fragmenting the class a win will feel very hollow.

Sorry but I feel the same way about the SR1 stuff. There isn't any future in it so...why do it! :)

[rupert14]

I guess I have to disagree. There is pretty good racing right now and no one manufacturer has an advantage. I would agree if the Artichokes (just joking...don't freak out) were smoking the field with their 1000cc motors, but they are not. Plus Cory proved that 'Old Yeller' can still run with the big dogs at the Terribles 250. What we need in desert racing (to get cred) is an increased car count, increased speeds (versus other classes) and increased finishing rate. If we just keep fragmenting the class a win will feel very hollow.

Sorry but I feel the same way about the SR1 stuff. There isn't any future in it so...why do it! :)

I see your point but why bring a race rhino to a race with a 686 motor if you know you are up against 1000 cars in the same class? If you want more cars, stop making all the rhino guys go elsewhere because there is no class they can competatively race in. I am a perfect example. I had a perfectly good race rhino last month with a weller motor, gear one everything, elka shocks, radios, pumpers, etc etc etc. I ran a whole whiplash series ( i know they are shorter races ) and finished every race. I wanted to step up to some BITD races but taking my rhino was a waste of time. I sold it for 10K ( only lost half the cost of a home ) and now I am building a Teryx so I can be competative. No one wants to show up to a gun fight with a slingshot. That is how all the race rhino owners feel about racing BITD. Just look at the entry list of rhinos compared to how many race rhinos are covered in spider webs in some garage because there is no place to race them competatively without 50K in upgrades. If you want a big turn out, make it 750cc and below and 751 and up. All the smaller displacement motors could race together including the rhinos and all those with big motors and tons of cash into the car could also race together. The field would be larger, there would be more cars, and it would be more fun. I think the slower cars just might have a higher finishing rate. I have fun racing rhinos in my rhino but racing Robert Vanbeekem's teryx at Snowflake last year took all the fun out of my rhino. Luckily he was in another class because he lapped most of us. Competition is what is fun, not always just how fast we go. That is why we race UTV's and not larger cars. I have a 5-1600 car with all the goodies and a fat motor but I race the UTV because of the increased car turn out and competition. Split the class to allow all the hundreds of built race rhinos to competatively race and you would have a turn out.

I have to say, the SR1 class looks like fun to me and if you see no future in it, I think you should try to order a kit................they can't keep them in stock.

[bajaxp]

I see your point but why bring a race rhino to a race with a 686 motor if you know you are up against 1000 cars in the same class? If you want more cars, stop making all the rhino guys go elsewhere because there is no class they can competatively race in. I am a perfect example. I had a perfectly good race rhino last month with a weller motor, gear one everything, elka shocks, radios, pumpers, etc etc etc. I ran a whole whiplash series ( i know they are shorter races ) and finished every race. I wanted to step up to some BITD races but taking my rhino was a waste of time. I sold it for 10K ( only lost half the cost of a home ) and now I am building a Teryx so I can be competative. No one wants to show up to a gun fight with a slingshot. That is how all the race rhino owners feel about racing BITD. Just look at the entry list of rhinos compared to how many race rhinos are covered in spider webs in some garage because there is no place to race them competatively without 50K in upgrades. If you want a big turn out, make it 750cc and below and 751 and up. All the smaller displacement motors could race together including the rhinos and all those with big motors and tons of cash into the car could also race together. The field would be larger, there would be more cars, and it would be more fun. I think the slower cars just might have a higher finishing rate. I have fun racing rhinos in my rhino but racing Robert Vanbeekem's teryx at Snowflake last year took all the fun out of my rhino. Luckily he was in another class because he lapped most of us. Competition is what is fun, not always just how fast we go. That is why we race UTV's and not larger cars. I have a 5-1600 car with all the goodies and a fat motor but I race the UTV because of the increased car turn out and competition. Split the class to allow all the hundreds of built race rhinos to competatively race and you would have a turn out.

I have to say, the SR1 class looks like fun to me and if you see no future in it, I think you should try to order a kit................they can't keep them in stock.

Good debate and your logic is sound for your situation.

SR1...really? how many cars are there? How many will there be in a year? I am guessing that less than 25 will be finished by the end of 2010. It is just a weak attempt to prolong the life of a dying unit. So you lost $10k with your Rhino. I lost the same value, in the same time period with my pick up.

As for competitive Rhinos...Cory Sappington got 2nd place in his old Rhino...in straight up racing at the first 2010 BITD TT250. Whiplash is not like BITD. If Bob V is so fast...have him come out the dez and show everyone! :)

Come out to a BITD race and if you have a fast, reliable car and you are a good driver... you have an honest chance to finish in the $$$ during your first race. You could have even done this with your Rhino as Cory has proven. As for the Kaw...I don't think they have won a BITD race yet, but perhaps you will be the first! Good luck.

[450grl]

I am not sure why the SR1 class is being drug through the mud, with only the suggestion being put out there that the BITD classes could be more fair/competitive. But since it is, I wanted to let everyone know that the SR1 class is now an official part of the Arizona Short Course Championship Series.....press release coming soon. Also, I know more than one racer who is swapping dez racing for an SR1 - maybe the idea of close competition is appealing to quite a few people.

Weak attempt? I'm not sure why you would say that......? It's an attempt to fill an empty place we saw in UTV racing currently. It's not meant to take over the world.....it's just a class that will let a bunch of people have fun again in their Rhinos.

PS - 25 by the end of the season would be awesome! :)

[07FJRog]

whooa big fella.

first of all I like Corry S, but don't go throwing out his second place finish, like he has the fastest rhino around. ( lol, not even close) check last season, how many races did he even finish???? of those how many were podiums???? :rolleyes:

the "rhino" which started all of this UTV racing in the first place, is not competetive against the high CC machines when it comes to longevity.

this is noted in short course also. single cylinder machines do not have too much of a chance against any of the twins. I know, I was the closest to any of the twin cyl machines.


"It is just a weak attempt to prolong the life of a dying unit"

no, the racing series are doing that, hence the change for a diff power plant.

if the "series" would keep a single cyl class and a twin cyl class separate, I would say you could have more entries.

"Come out to a BITD race and if you have a fast, reliable car"
Then setup the rules for CVT engine swaps, this would also bring more rhinos to the racing scene, they can be at 800 cc. no mfr steps up to support UTVs really anyhow, so why not? ya scared of a 800 rotax in a rhino????? lol

[bajaxp]

whooa big fella.

first of all I like Corry S, but don't go throwing out his second place finish, like he has the fastest rhino around. ( lol, not even close) check last season, how many races did he even finish???? of those how many were podiums???? :rolleyes:

the "rhino" which started all of this UTV racing in the first place, is not competetive against the high CC machines when it comes to longevity.

this is noted in short course also. single cylinder machines do not have too much of a chance against any of the twins. I know, I was the closest to any of the twin cyl machines.


"It is just a weak attempt to prolong the life of a dying unit"

no, the racing series are doing that, hence the change for a diff power plant.

if the "series" would keep a single cyl class and a twin cyl class separate, I would say you could have more entries.

"Come out to a BITD race and if you have a fast, reliable car"
Then setup the rules for CVT engine swaps, this would also bring more rhinos to the racing scene, they can be at 800 cc. no mfr steps up to support UTVs really anyhow, so why not? ya scared of a 800 rotax in a rhino????? lol


I am not a fan of class fragmentation...as all it has done is make classes smaller.

My comments revolve around desert racing, not short course. So I have no commment on that other than there is no 'long term future' in engine swap classes as it takes two vehicles to make one. No OEM wants to get involved, the bigger aftermarket guys will flee, and really at the end of the day...what is it? Try selling a Yamatax on Craig's List.

My comments originally were to the guy who started this thread ...and they were; to go racing. When he finds a weakness then spend his hard earned money on that area. Rhino's weakness is reliability. So Rhino guys should not be worried about speed...but finishing races.

Personally I am not too worried about a 800 Rotax, but it goes down the path of expensive engine swaps and that is not in the spirit of desert SxS racing IMO. The current rules for the desert work just fine.

In general, inexperienced racers like to spend money on long travel kits, engine swaps, exotic engines and forget that in desert racing it is more about no down time, consistant speed, a good driver (that practices in the desert) clean pit stops, and getting to the finish line.

Leave the rules alone as they will increase car count. You don't hear me whining about Arctic Cat running a 1000cc engine against 800cc engines. I am not trying to get Arctic in a seperate class. I enjoy racing against them and welcome them.

[rupert14]

I am not a fan of class fragmentation...as all it has done is make classes smaller.

My comments revolve around desert racing, not short course. So I have no commment on that other than there is no 'long term future' in engine swap classes as it takes two vehicles to make one. No OEM wants to get involved, the bigger aftermarket guys will flee, and really at the end of the day...what is it? Try selling a Yamatax on Craig's List.

My comments originally were to the guy who started this thread ...and they were; to go racing. When he finds a weakness then spend his hard earned money on that area. Rhino's weakness is reliability. So Rhino guys should not be worried about speed...but finishing races.

Personally I am not too worried about a 800 Rotax, but it goes down the path of expensive engine swaps and that is not in the spirit of desert SxS racing IMO. The current rules for the desert work just fine.

In general, inexperienced racers like to spend money on long travel kits, engine swaps, exotic engines and forget that in desert racing it is more about no down time, consistant speed, a good driver (that practices in the desert) clean pit stops, and getting to the finish line.

Leave the rules alone as they will increase car count. You don't hear me whining about Arctic Cat running a 1000cc engine against 800cc engines. I am not trying to get Arctic in a seperate class. I enjoy racing against them and welcome them.

Let's see what we can agree upon since we obviously have some differences of opinion and mine means the least as I have not even run a BITD race yet.

Lets agree that rhinos are becoming fewer and fewer in ANY UTV race as they seem to be the slowest in comparison to all other twin engines. I was simply proposing that some of my friends have commented that they would like to come race the old "race rhino" but feel it is not competative against the newer cars. I for one agree so I sold my rhino. I lost like 35K because I only got 10K for my car even though it pulled the championship this year. (I know a whiplash championship is about as hard as one BITD race, but atlest it is a trophy)

I think we can all agree that the challenge for any rhino is not speed, but finishing a race.

We can agree that some folks waste money on the "bling" of dezert racing. I think experienced racers build a car right the first time. That is why I am asking what is working rather than building a full race motor. I am trying to prevent spending money once on something that I will inevitably "upgrade" later and loose the $$ from the initial investment. Build once and do it right. I think we can all agree that if you have the $$, that is the best way. (perhaps I don't know enough about what I am doing)

Since we can't agree on what the perfect rules may be, then maybe we can agree that there are a lot of built "rhinos" out there growing cob webs because the owners feel the car is obsolete compared to the modern twins.

After speaking with Jason Weller again, my car will have an 800cc motor, around 10.5:1 compressioin, a sport cam, aftermarket rods, carbs, and the ported/valved heads with all the rocker, spring etc mods. It will be a strong motor but not nearly as powerfull as the short course motors that have not been touched since before the start of last season. They have kept together for over a complete season and my motor will have all the strong stuff with less power so I am optomistic. I thank everyone for all the help.

As for the SR1 class, I appreciate that someone is offering a cheap motor swap (much cheaper than building a rhino motor ) that allows folks to pull the old race cars out and make them fun to race in a competative class. My friends who are swapping (three of them) are all really excited. I agree that this may not be a dezert setup but for those running, it will be fun.

[Wild Earp]

as for the sr1 class, i appreciate that someone is offering a cheap motor swap (much cheaper than building a rhino motor ) that allows folks to pull the old race cars out and make them fun to race in a competative class. My friends who are swapping (three of them) are all really excited. I agree that this may not be a dezert setup but for those running, it will be fun.

x2!!!

[JoeyD23]

The SR1 Class is awesome. It is not desinged to takeover but like has been mentioned time and time again it was designed to give those racing rhinos an outlet to really enjoy competing in them again.

As for desert racing, I think the rules need to be rethunk a little but overall the competition, especially in BITD, is really good. Solid car counts and good competition. A well built Rhino can still compete. But as long as Jagged X continues to prepare their RZR the way they are Brandon will be tough for anyone to beat!

As for no manufacturers being involved in UTV's....Kawasaki is doing quite a bit to help both desert and shortcourse racers a long. I know Polaris was doing some for a while in shortcourse and logic tells me they are helping Jagged X. Obviously Arcitic Cat is helping out with Bi-Polar and according to Rudy at Die Cast they provide motors for their cars as well. Yamaha was helping Sappington until recently I belive, hence his naked picture thread that by reading the title led us all to think it was Corry Weller...Still pissed about that...LOL..J/K Corry....Kinda....LOL

Bottom line is, UTV racing is going through puberty right now just trying to find its identity. Debate will drive changes, changes will hopefully improve the sport and the class. Fighting about it will do nothing! Not that anyone is, but it could go there....

[450grl]

I might have to spoof Cory's pic someday........that would be funny.....

[JoeyD23]

that would be hilarious!!! LMAO Better clear it with Jason first! hahahahaha See you guys in a week!