Class 5 only

[rusco]

Sorry to go back to this engine thing but I've been thinking long and hard about the water pumper debate. It seems like the people are somewhat accepting the idea of allowing a water pumper 4 cylinder engine as an allowance to run in class 5. What has not really been discusse much is beyond the allowance of a water pumper what would be acceptable. I believe that a stock sealed ecotec is not the only key and would be an obvious disadvantage but a good reliable option. This would keep the type 4 racing engine at the top of the list for best engine option in the class (which in that respect would be a good thing). I also believe that there are some options out there that would be slightly better than the ecotec in comparison to a type 4 racing engine. One thing that concerns me however is the UNLIMITED 4 cylinder water pumper engine. In my opinion for the water pumper option to work, the hp should not be allowed to go past what a high performance type 4 engine puts out (between 275 and 325 hp to the crank). I know I'm gonna get some flack for this but I have to say it. if you make the water pumpers unlimited people running type 4's are going to be at a disadvantage from a reliabilty standpoint and a performance standpoint. Having 4to 500 hp 4 cylinders will change the baja bugs that we see racing today. Limiting the hp on the water pumpers to be the same as a high performance type 4 will keep them physically the same looks wise, parts wise, and handleing but you wouldnt have to be worrying so much about an engine failure. Now I get that this is 5 unlimited so we shouldnt limit the engine but there needs to be some type of middle ground or comprimise other wise the people still running type 4's are going to say "f this, this is bs and I'm out". Sorry about kicking this horse again.

Think we should discuss at Midnight special/CC race. Perhaps create a "competition comittee" that can hammer out the details. There is so much intreptation in the rules today between santioning bodies and individual cars that a car that can run BITD might not be able to run SCORE, etc, etc. Just with the tubing size, body and wheel base rules, most would fail post race (if protested). I.E weight vs. tubing size, body cutting / rear fenders and wheelbase @ "ride height".

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[steve0we]

Im headed to Cabo next week, anyone else in that neck of the woods?

[JRV 511]

Sorry to go back to this engine thing but I've been thinking long and hard about the water pumper debate. It seems like the people are somewhat accepting the idea of allowing a water pumper 4 cylinder engine as an allowance to run in class 5. What has not really been discusse much is beyond the allowance of a water pumper what would be acceptable. I believe that a stock sealed ecotec is not the only key and would be an obvious disadvantage but a good reliable option. This would keep the type 4 racing engine at the top of the list for best engine option in the class (which in that respect would be a good thing). I also believe that there are some options out there that would be slightly better than the ecotec in comparison to a type 4 racing engine. One thing that concerns me however is the UNLIMITED 4 cylinder water pumper engine. In my opinion for the water pumper option to work, the hp should not be allowed to go past what a high performance type 4 engine puts out (between 275 and 325 hp to the crank). I know I'm gonna get some flack for this but I have to say it. if you make the water pumpers unlimited people running type 4's are going to be at a disadvantage from a reliabilty standpoint and a performance standpoint. Having 4to 500 hp 4 cylinders will change the baja bugs that we see racing today. Limiting the hp on the water pumpers to be the same as a high performance type 4 will keep them physically the same looks wise, parts wise, and handleing but you wouldnt have to be worrying so much about an engine failure. Now I get that this is 5 unlimited so we shouldnt limit the engine but there needs to be some type of middle ground or comprimise other wise the people still running type 4's are going to say "f this, this is bs and I'm out". Sorry about kicking this horse again.

Well ..........What a disappointment ...... We have been over this topic again and again and again , a 2.5 ltr and max rpm limit will only make so much power , you might be able to match the big type 4 but you wont beat it out . I mean you can build a 2.5 at 18 to 1 compression but thats a drag engine not something you can run at 7500 rpms all day long its just not possible , There is NO match for CC's

The sealed engine is a complete waist of time . I know I and several others if given the choise, would race a ten car over the 5 car if we were playing with a sealed package , the ten car will run faster with the limited HP due to travel and wheel base

[Zac Reish]

Jim, I knew by posting that I'd get flamed on. If what you said is the case I say its a super solid plan. Just dont want to see this get blown out of proportion to where someone with a good type 4 is no longer a competitor because they are flat out getting out ran in top speed. If that happens it will be bad. If the limited cc and rpm keeps everyone within striking distance it will be more affordable and just as fun if not more. Like i said I'm all for the engine allowance but as long as its an engine that compares well and does not blow away a type 4. If someone comes in with a super exotic water pumper and blows everyone out of the water the engine allowance will be a complete failure. If this allowance is treated with integrity and respect for the original cars running the class it could be a huge succes. Taking advantage of rules and interpretation to the max will only hurt the class in the end. Building a super reliable engine thats affordable that can put out 250 to 300+- horses at 7500 rpms i'd say would be just fine for these cars. Anything beyone 320 to 350 is way beyond any type 4 IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[rusco]

Jim, I knew by posting that I'd get flamed on. If what you said is the case I say its a super solid plan. Just dont want to see this get blown out of proportion to where someone with a good type 4 is no longer a competitor because they are flat out getting out ran in top speed. If that happens it will be bad. If the limited cc and rpm keeps everyone within striking distance it will be more affordable and just as fun if not more. Like i said I'm all for the engine allowance but as long as its an engine that compares well and does not blow away a type 4. If someone comes in with a super exotic water pumper and blows everyone out of the water the engine allowance will be a complete failure. If this allowance is treated with integrity and respect for the original cars running the class it could be a huge succes. Taking advantage of rules and interpretation to the max will only hurt the class in the end. Building a super reliable engine thats affordable that can put out 250 to 300+- horses at 7500 rpms i'd say would be just fine for these cars. Anything beyone 320 to 350 is way beyond any type 4 IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Zac and Jim, both have valid points. I believe the agenda for h20 is reliability. If I had a more reliable engine package I could race more. The issue that Zac has brought up is, when you make it OPEN h20, WE have the potential to screw this thing up by chasing more and more hp. My thoughts would be to limit mods such as CC's,compression, rpm's and perhaps fuel. On the flip side, sounds like sealed motors are PITA. This has been brought up. Any motor option should not affect the hard core guys that are consistently racing.

[JRV 511]

Jim, I knew by posting that I'd get flamed on. If what you said is the case I say its a super solid plan. Just dont want to see this get blown out of proportion to where someone with a good type 4 is no longer a competitor because they are flat out getting out ran in top speed. If that happens it will be bad. If the limited cc and rpm keeps everyone within striking distance it will be more affordable and just as fun if not more. Like i said I'm all for the engine allowance but as long as its an engine that compares well and does not blow away a type 4. If someone comes in with a super exotic water pumper and blows everyone out of the water the engine allowance will be a complete failure. If this allowance is treated with integrity and respect for the original cars running the class it could be a huge succes. Taking advantage of rules and interpretation to the max will only hurt the class in the end. Building a super reliable engine thats affordable that can put out 250 to 300+- horses at 7500 rpms i'd say would be just fine for these cars. Anything beyone 320 to 350 is way beyond any type 4 IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Don't take my word for it start calling some of the race engine builders and start researching it yourself as I have been doing . There are only two ways to make huge naturally aspirated power with 2.5 liters 1) huge compression 2) huge rpm's ,thats really it , big cam shafts , port and polish will only get you so far . As one of those guys that has been playing around in the motorsports industry my whole life, huge compression is a time bomb and will not survive in the desert, its really more of a drag race thing . So at 2.5 liters and a RPM cap I for one am not worried at all about someone coming out with a super crazy thing that will hand us our arss, it's really not possible . The second thing is this , As the Belk family and other long time five racers have stated you are only going to do so much at 105.5 " beam car

[JRV 511]

Zac and Jim, both have valid points. I believe the agenda for h20 is reliability. If I had a more reliable engine package I could race more. The issue that Zac has brought up is, when you make it OPEN h20, WE have the potential to screw this thing up by chasing more and more hp. My thoughts would be to limit mods such as CC's,compression, rpm's and perhaps fuel. On the flip side, sounds like sealed motors are PITA. This has been brought up. Any motor option should not affect the hard core guys that are consistently racing.

And you sir have hit the nail right on the head for me personally , Its about reliability , I have been researching several engine options and I'm not sure I can make as much power as my type 4 does but I am way willing to give a little to gain the reliability for sure

[Class5]

I like the Idea of h2o if it brings more cars to the class. If we go much over 300hp we are going to start hurting people really bad out there running a 105.5 wheel base!
I have talked with Jim about this quite a bit and know his issues he has had with Type 4 engines, From the other guys running type 4 engines what are your problems with them?

For the guys that want to contunue running type 4s, pools our knowledge and see if we can get a solution the the engines reliabiliy?
I have run mine car 5 years and rebuild the engine once a year, rebuild is valve job, rings, bearings, and general inspections on everything. Knock on wood but have had no more issues than that, oh cyl before they started getting them from mexico, they last now.

[JRV 511]

I like the Idea of h2o if it brings more cars to the class. If we go much over 300hp we are going to start hurting people really bad out there running a 105.5 wheel base!
I have talked with Jim about this quite a bit and know his issues he has had with Type 4 engines, From the other guys running type 4 engines what are your problems with them?

For the guys that want to contunue running type 4s, pools our knowledge and see if we can get a solution the the engines reliabiliy?
I have run mine car 5 years and rebuild the engine once a year, rebuild is valve job, rings, bearings, and general inspections on everything. Knock on wood but have had no more issues than that, oh cyl before they started getting them from mexico, they last now.

Do you really wan't to open this can of worms again ????? BTW I know what engine issues you have had , once a year Eric , maybe down to the crank once a year

[TexasBaja]

Baja Racing of Texas has been following this thread very closely and is proud to announce that we are taking the lead and have modified the Class 5 Unlimited engine rules to allow additional H2O options for a two (2) year trial period. This is obviously going to be a work in process and will be for several months to come as more and more Sanctioned bodies hopefully come on board. We will be happy to work with any sanctioned body and/or committee to fine tune these rules as we move forward and continue to grow the class.
As for now we have taken into consideration everyone’s comments and concerns, and have made the rules as follows:

Any manufacturer four cylinder water cooled engine providing:

1. It is a design that has been series produced in quantities of 5000 units or more and is readily available to the general public in the U.S.A.
2. Engine displacement does not exceed 2500 cc.
3. Engine does not exceed 7500 RPM’s.
4. It does not have more than four (4) cylinders.
5. It is not a rotary piston engine.

These rules are for the 2013/2014 racing season but anyone meeting the engine criteria will be allowed to race the Chupacabra 300 on Oct 4th -7th at the Texana Ranch in Blackwell TX. We are in the process of updating the rules on our website and will have them up as soon as possible. In the meantime anyone with questions or concerns please feel free to send me a email at [email protected].

Thank you and looking forward to a great Class 5 turnout,

Duane McCreary
BRT Tech Director