Class 5 only

[frostbite36]

Much of the growth in off road racing has been in ecotech classes, because they often run 10k+ miles with basic maintainance. I have seen competitive class 5's, 12's and 10's all switch over because vintage air cooled power is no longer....."economical".

Just an observation:

There is only one real ECOTEC-class success story and that is Class-10. Unfortunately, Class-3000 and Trophy-lite R4 are not doing all that great, from what I have seen. The reason this engine is a success is because it is sealed and largely unmodified which leads to the longetivity the ECOTEC fans are so excited about. If you guys go for an "unlimited" ECOTEC in the class it will be back to the same cost issues you have all been worried about with the air-cooled "unlimited" motors.

On a positive note...Another success story, Class-12 seems to be having a resurgence with the new TYPE-1 low-compression engine option rules. Hopefully, it will continue to be the case.

On the other side of the Type-1 fence, class 1-2/1600 seems to be doing pretty good still and those motors are not cheap either, if built to the hilt.

With those things stated above, I am not totally convinced that the air-cooled motor is the root of the problem. Unfortunately, "unlimited" will always be expensive no matter what the engine is and pushing the engineering envelope will always lower reliability and longetivity.

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[JRV 511]

Jim- I have a 5-1600 in the garage and have been planning and buying parts for a new car, either a 12 or 5 open. I had a 5 open back in the 1980s when pans were still required. My son (Tapeworm) has an old Raceco 5 car and we had planned on doing a 5 car since we are both baja bug fanatics. I am a 'nostalgia' nut according to Wheezy who thinks I am living in the past. I think he is another guy trying to change a class to fit his needs since he couldn't read the rule book. Type 1 or type 4, I don't care, we actually have our share of both in the garage. I lean towards the 1, the son leans toward the 4. The rules for the new engine in 12 make it so tempting, but again, it's not a Baja. As far as Wheezy goes, I probably had a 5 car when he was in diapers, but I could be wrong, it was only 28 years ago.

With all due respect . You have some very strong opinions about the future of the class and in some ways I completely understand . but along with several others, I own a top notch 5 unlimited and have spent the big money making every race , even if it meant racing myself . So here is my question to you . How do you expect us , the current owners of full blown 5 unlimiteds , to value your opinion when you havent experieced the same problems and expense that we have incured . again no disrespect , I'm just interested in your response ?

[JRV 511]

Just an observation:

There is only one real ECOTEC-class success story and that is Class-10. Unfortunately, Class-3000 and Trophy-lite R4 are not doing all that great, from what I have seen. The reason this engine is a success is because it is sealed and largely unmodified which leads to the longetivity the ECOTEC fans are so excited about. If you guys go for an "unlimited" ECOTEC in the class it will be back to the same cost issues you have all been worried about with the air-cooled "unlimited" motors.

On a positive note...Another success story, Class-12 seems to be having a resurgence with the new TYPE-1 low-compression engine option rules. Hopefully, it will continue to be the case.

On the other side of the Type-1 fence, class 1-2/1600 seems to be doing pretty good still and those motors are not cheap either, if built to the hilt.

With those things stated above, I am not totally convinced that the air-cooled motor is the root of the problem. Unfortunately, "unlimited" will always be expensive no matter what the engine is and pushing the engineering envelope will always lower reliability and longetivity.

Well stated , but I do not totally agree

[wheezy]

I promise, I'll try to keep it as PC and friendly as possible. Pffffff. Yaaa, right.

Reading comprehension grade = F minus - Remember when I said mainly for entertainment and not to get your panties all in a wad? But OK, I'll bite. This will also be my last post on RDC for a few months other than maybe a few tech questions in the shop section as I finish putting my NEW 5 unlimited together. Enjoy.

You work near and have association with a mall you claim to be one of the highest grossing in the country and that makes you an expert on something? Which mall? How about the three I listed. SOUTH COAST PLAZA, Fashion Island, Irvine Spectrum. Ethnically diverse for sure, but predominately Caucasian.

You magically know that 80% of the people walking around are Asian tourists? WOW, dude, with those kinds of magical powers why aren't you a millionaire racing TTs? You could spot all the terrorists from a nearby location just by being associated with the military!!! And according to your profile, you were born in 1989 and go to school and don't own any race vehicles. An update may be in order, unless you purposefully mislead people.

MY disconnect about "WHO" races off road. Yep, you got me. Not like I work for the biggest off road racing sponsor out there or anything.

Construction industry. Ohh the irony of this one made me "LOL". I've forgotten more about land development, homebuilding, and "construction" than you will ever know if you lived 10 lifetimes. I was a director at Developers Research under the tutelage of Barry Gross and Scot Oldham (my current neighbor) for five years. I also worked closely with Charles J. McLaughlin of Black Swan Advisers on his annual homebuilding reports doing research. Not very many if ANY land development deals or homebuilding plans that have been built in California/Nevada/Arizona that haven't passed through those offices. Ohhh, and I was a partner in a light gauge steel framing business called Structural Concepts based out of Corona and was partnered up with NuCon steel and Don Moody the four years prior to that before selling out. Not to mention the fact that my father has been in "construction" since before I was born having worked for many of the big builders out there and owning his own drywall business for many years. Shoot, I could spot bottom nails at the age of 5 ($20 a day bought some rad toys for myself back then). Furthermore, my best friend in life just purchased a nice home in Costa Mesa. He works for Oranco here in Orange county. They build most of the Chipotle restaurants, does commercial "construction" count? The guy that owns Oranco has a rad place on the bay in Newport. Sadly, you are kind of right though. Due to the artificial boom, a lot of NEW folks got into the business and then it all crashed. Some newbies lost big. Especially the ones I already pointed out that built a little equity and bought a race car, or a boat, or an RV that couldn't even afford the house they bought in the fist place. But honestly, all the old time players I know that have been in construction their entire lives are actually doing rather well, and that's A LOT of people, including my current room mate and the others I listed by the way. It was sad to watch our family friend who runs an insulation business sell his Ferrari though. He's got it rough right now. Wonder how many of the 150 C1's and TT's entered at the BITD race are "out of construction".

2006? A "boom" is not a long term economical reality. Especially an artificial boom that was destined to pop before it started. Ask ANYBODY that knows anything about the land dev / homebuilding industry. If you didn't see the burst coming from a mile away then you're either stupid or haven't been in the business very long. It's virtually cyclic. It wasn't the first and it certainly won't be the last.

Facts are, economy is poor? Based on what? Based on the 20 real things I listed where I see people spending? Based on the automotive industry numbers I posted? Based on the two most expensive classes in racing with mega entries? Based on my stock portfolio kicking ass right now? Based on the level of business that the several off road fab shops I do marketing for are doing? Fact is ALL businesses can't do extremely well ALL the time. Of course construction as a whole across the state suffered huge losses after the inevitable pop. But the people in the industry that remember the other times this has happened even during my short lifetime didn't loose their asses.(OK, some actually did, some REALLY bad land dev deals I was privy too) And ya, a lot of small time newbies that purchased those new houses sure did too. It's not the first time, it's certainly isn't the last time our country has seen this cycle.

Complete logic breakdown on the Obama, regular joe thing. Tom is a great guy based on our few meetings and ongoing conversations online, but is kind of far from the regular Joe from where I stand. I own two small businesses, both doing decently well. I also work a M-F 10 hour day for my "regular job". I put in more hours than anybody else I personally know. I'm a workaholic, and it's that hard work that allows me to live the life I enjoy. The bills are paid and the race car will be racing. I do not own a multimillion dollar, international, recreational sporting supply business. So our perspectives on economy are obviously going to be quite different. I don't think ol Tom is exactly hurting though. If you dive, it's highly likely that you have purchased something he distributed. I know I have! And I know Catalina was packed, and I do mean packed with people diving the point just three weeks ago.

In closing Bro, I trust no ones "word" for anything. I was blessed with a reasonable level of intelligence. I draw my own conclusions based on observation, research and raw data as it pertains to my world. Is my world that far off from the regular Joe? Perhaps it is, but I really don't think so. I see hundreds of TT's and Class 1s racing. I see lots of class 10s racing. I see lots of class 9's racing. That covers the rich, and the average working man classes rather well.

So, where are all the 5 cars? What is so unappealing about the class when so many people state how fun they are to drive? There must be a reason. If only I could put my finger on it. That's right, the engine packages are absurd these days compared to other, newer, better alternatives that other classes have adopted. While I can afford to race, I could afford to race a lot more if I could just ditch this engine for something more reliable, which I've stated numerous times. So ya, I want a change to suite my own needs. Isn't that why ANYBODY would want a change? To suit their needs?

Clearly, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but when you disagree with diverse, real world facts and observations presented to you that's called ignorance.

When I tell you, the economy as it relates to racing is fine and has nothing to do with people not racing because, well, THEY ARE RACING - Just a little advice, you can trust my word on this. Get with the program. Build a 5 car and start racing it.

http://www.dev-res.com

http://blackswanadvisors.net/homebuilderreports.html (07-10, turns out I had my finger on the pulse before anybody else did)

[bajabird]

Wheezy, you can't go away. My morning laughs have become louder the last couple days.

Just another option. Class 1 with a bug body?
The 1300 class is reaching out....... I think they need a leader.
The numbers in class have been consistently good.

[JRV 511]

Dear lord ,Todd (Wheezy) Like typing much ?

[Matt Mead]

Wheez- Your diatribe about the economy just shows that reality and you are in 2 different places. I happen to work near and have association with one of the largest and highest grossing malls in the country. While their sales are not slumping, it is hardly from American dollars being spent. 80+% of the folks walking around with bags are from Asia, and they come here on Mall Tourist trips to shop with their strong Yen versus the weaker dollar. And your disconnect about who races in the desert is also telling. How many folks from the construction industry do you know that are hurting right now? I know plenty and many raced off road. It has always been one of the industries that has played a majority role in the sport, and, ask anybody in it, they are hurtin'. I know companies that had 160 guys working in 2006 and have 9 now. Many of the big names in this sport came out of construction, but I am sure you know them all. The facts are, the economy is poor and folks aren't making as much money as they did. Because you can claim you are doing better is not indicative of the general population. Your conclusions about the economy can mean only a couple things- You are Obama's speech writer and gave him the "private business is doing fine..." line or you simply do not have the pulse of the regular man earning a living out there. I really hope it is a latter! When Tom says the economy is tough and that is keeping people from racing, just a little advice- you can trust his word on this.

I'm glad I'm not the only who noticed that it seemed like almost everyone racing offroad owned some construction company, haha.

[Crumco]

Okay here's the Class 5 B rules for all of you who want to participate either in class 5U or class 5B. These also have been submitted to Warren at BITD and will also be implemented. Thank-You Crumco Motorsports.

Rules for Class 5 B



Follow Class 5 Rules except for engine displacement. Engine displacement is as follows:

1) All 4-cylinder water-cooled engines must be 2500cc or less.

2) Engines May Not exceed 200 HP.

3) All water-cooled engines must be sealed by Turnkey or Fat Performance.

4) No Turbos and No Superchargers.

5) All air-cooled engines are open.

6) All transaxles are open.

7) All vehicles must maintain a beam and 105" wheelbase.

[Fourstroker]

Okay here's the Class 5 B rules for all of you who want to participate either in class 5U or class 5B. These also have been submitted to Warren at BITD and will also be implemented. Thank-You Crumco Motorsports.

Rules for Class 5 B



Follow Class 5 Rules except for engine displacement. Engine displacement is as follows:

1) All 4-cylinder water-cooled engines must be 2500cc or less.

2) Engines May Not exceed 200 HP.

3) All water-cooled engines must be sealed by Turnkey or Fat Performance.

4) No Turbos and No Superchargers.

5) All air-cooled engines are open.

6) All transaxles are open.

7) All vehicles must maintain a beam and 105" wheelbase.

So who is the target audience for a motor rule/class like this? Can't figured out why anyone would want to limit the HP on an unlimited class. IMHO Lame!

[JRV 511]

[QUOTE=Crumco;1437032]Okay here's the Class 5 B rules for all of you who want to participate either in class 5U or class 5B. These also have been submitted to Warren at BITD and will also be implemented. Thank-You Crumco Motorsports.

Rules for Class 5 B

Lame !!!! I'm not interested , At 2500 cc's you can only make so much power ! You might want to look at the last 130+ pages , The guys that are interested in the engine option are not at all interested in a sealed engine package , this is not class 10 . Interesting that you have submitted YOUR rules to BITD without any support from those of us that have been pushing the Idea from the start . I guess we are all going to have to get a hold of casey , although he has said that he won't do anything without the support of the one five car racer that has been racing over there consistantly , in that case your rules won't work anyway . Dear Lord !!!!