$50,000 1st Place Prize to Baja1000 Winner in the new category!

[CodyKellogg]

There is already a dual purpose mechanical component that has been developed that converts usually wasted Kinetic energy into an electrical current that will charge your batteries; therefore eliminating the need for an alternator. It is in use in Government Contracts for the US Military thus far. This eliminates the need for solar power to charge the battery bank.

If the Race EV's were able to use this technology, battery charge longevity could be sustained indefinitely.

Just so you know, using the word "indefinitely" means you are talking about a perpetual motion machine, which cannot exist. Due to less than 100% efficiency in all of the components in the vehicle, you will never be able to recover all of the energy you use. The device you are talking about would only make the energy use more efficient. Just so you know.

Anyways, you can still run over bushes with an electric car, so none of this matters. We will all be kicked out of the desert long before these vehicles can become the norm!

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[Jaden]

Just so you know, using the word "indefinitely" means you are talking about a perpetual motion machine, which cannot exist. Due to less than 100% efficiency in all of the components in the vehicle, you will never be able to recover all of the energy you use. The device you are talking about would only make the energy use more efficient. Just so you know.

Anyways, you can still run over bushes with an electric car, so none of this matters. We will all be kicked out of the desert long before these vehicles can become the norm!

Of course there will always be loss of energy, through one of many mechanisms. So you are correct. What really matters is if the energy being captured is sufficient enough to fully charge the battery pack, even though that converted energy is less than the energy being being put into the system. When I stated "Indefinitely", it was in context to the duration of the race and life of the battery cell.

There is an excess of Kinetic Energy that is more than sufficient in being captured, converted and capable of charging the battery packs for our style of sport. It has already been proven for the military and large trucking fleets. So the question isn't will it work, it's who will be able to get a hold of it and implement it into their vehicle.

There would be no need to change batteries during the race.

[WickedGravityVideo]

The previous poster is very mistaken and misinformed. I know nothing about this particular vehicle, but I am confident in saying that any all-electric race vehicle will need to have battery banks changed out every 30-100 miles. The recapture of kinetic energy you speak of is through regenerative braking... the electric motors turn into generators during braking only, providing an overall savings of 5-10 percent. It does not matter whether the machinery comes from the military, the moon, or secret black ops --- we all have to obey simple energy balances. There is no top secret military technology that gets around this.. never will be, except on cable tv shows. Please don't misinform the RDC public.

[CodyKellogg]

Just for fun let's take a look at this. The way energy works is Total Energy = Kinetic Energy + Potential Energy. Basically in these all electric vehicles the potential energy is in the batteries as electricity. The kinetic energy is the movement of the vehicle. All of the movement: the forward movement, suspension movement, even the movement of the dirt beneath the tires. In order for the vehicle to move from rest the potential energy needs to be converted to kinetic energy, in this case through an electric motor, etc. In order for these devices to "capture" this kinetic energy, you must first use the potential energy in the system to have kinetic energy to capture. Unless of course the majority of the coarse is down hill, then you have significant potential energy from gravity, but I wouldn't count on it Again, these devices are only allowing the vehicle to use the initial potential energy more efficiently. I would be surprised if you could get anything more than that 5-10% stated earlier of total system efficiency. The entire system is so complicated that it would be nearly impossible to model accurately to even tell. So in order for the vehicle to complete, I don't know, let's say a 30 hour Baja 1000, the vehicles on board would have to be big enough to run for that long in those conditions without having a significant source of charge. If this does exist, which it may, the impressive part is in the battery itself, and not the technology of "capturing" the kinetic energy. And it will be a LONG time before that is affordable to anyone in this sport.

Wow that was long. Oh well, got to flex the old brain a little bit. It's been a while since college, so its good to brush the rust off every now and then.

[Jaden]

The previous poster is very mistaken and misinformed. I know nothing about this particular vehicle, but I am confident in saying that any all-electric race vehicle will need to have battery banks changed out every 30-100 miles. The recapture of kinetic energy you speak of is through regenerative braking... the electric motors turn into generators during braking only, providing an overall savings of 5-10 percent. It does not matter whether the machinery comes from the military, the moon, or secret black ops --- we all have to obey simple energy balances. There is no top secret military technology that gets around this.. never will be, except on cable tv shows. Please don't misinform the RDC public.

I am not trying to instigate an argument or make enemies concerning this subject or on RDC in general. That been said; your assumption that I was referring to a regenerative braking system is incorrect. Therefore the validity of your rebuttal is inconsequential, thus a mute point. The military is privy to new technologies, some years before the civilian market. All I am saying is that there is an efficient system that uses Kinetic Energy from the vehicles suspension (otherwise wasted as heat and fluid transfer) that is able to capture an output in excess of what (normal) EV's consume. If this technology is adapted and implemented into a Desert Capable EV, then the potential to run a race without battery changes is conceivable. As I stated before, IF a team can get a hold of this item, it could change the way charging systems and races for EV's are conducted.

[Bajades]

I am not trying to instigate an argument or make enemies concerning this subject or on RDC in general. That been said; your assumption that I was referring to a regenerative braking system is incorrect. Therefore the validity of your rebuttal is inconsequential, thus a mute point. The military is privy to new technologies, some years before the civilian market. All I am saying is that there is an efficient system that uses Kinetic Energy from the vehicles suspension (otherwise wasted as heat and fluid transfer) that is able to capture an output in excess of what (normal) EV's consume. If this technology is adapted and implemented into a Desert Capable EV, then the potential to run a race without battery changes is conceivable. As I stated before, IF a team can get a hold of this item, it could change the way charging systems and races for EV's are conducted.

Wow, apparently the laws of physics don't apply to our military. How cool is that. Have to agree with Wicked and Cody, even if 100 percent of the kinetic energy from the vehicles suspension and braking systems was able to be recaptured to charge the vehicle's battery, this would only result in an improvement in range in the neighborhood of 10-25%. Not the 500% improvement that is needed for today's battery technology. Nano tube battery technology promises this kind of improvement in energy storage, but they are a ways off yet.

Jaden in your statement that "Energy from the vehicles suspension (otherwise wasted as heat and fluid transfer) that is able to capture an output in excess of what (normal) EV's consume", does this mean that the system can capture more suspension energy than what is consumed by the batteries to operate the vehicle? If so, this is a gross violation of the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it. Energy recaptured from the suspension system in an off-road vehicle, although significant, is just a fraction of the energy expended by the motor to move the vehicle.

[dsmith13]

Just for fun let's take a look at this. The way energy works is Total Energy = Kinetic Energy + Potential Energy. Basically in these all electric vehicles the potential energy is in the batteries as electricity. The kinetic energy is the movement of the vehicle. All of the movement: the forward movement, suspension movement, even the movement of the dirt beneath the tires. In order for the vehicle to move from rest the potential energy needs to be converted to kinetic energy, in this case through an electric motor, etc. In order for these devices to "capture" this kinetic energy, you must first use the potential energy in the system to have kinetic energy to capture. Unless of course the majority of the coarse is down hill, then you have significant potential energy from gravity, but I wouldn't count on it Again, these devices are only allowing the vehicle to use the initial potential energy more efficiently. I would be surprised if you could get anything more than that 5-10% stated earlier of total system efficiency. The entire system is so complicated that it would be nearly impossible to model accurately to even tell. So in order for the vehicle to complete, I don't know, let's say a 30 hour Baja 1000, the vehicles on board would have to be big enough to run for that long in those conditions without having a significant source of charge. If this does exist, which it may, the impressive part is in the battery itself, and not the technology of "capturing" the kinetic energy. And it will be a LONG time before that is affordable to anyone in this sport.

Wow that was long. Oh well, got to flex the old brain a little bit. It's been a while since college, so its good to brush the rust off every now and then.

Oh god, it sounds like we're back in College again... You're making my brain work too hard! Watch out, we may end up with a new Class 5 power discussion out of this haha!

[nimrod]

I'm pretty sure this is for sealed motors running on household 110. The new pump gas class for electric racers.

[WickedGravityVideo]

my further involvement in this discussion is futile. When you get a trophy truck that runs the Baja Peninsula on six D-cells.... call me.. I might be interested in one!

I am going to call Redstone Energy Group tomorrow and try to get them to come here to RDC and comment on their efforts.


Spelling 101: moot, course

[WickedGravityVideo]

UPDATE: (from phone conversation with Rick Skelton, of Redstone Energy Group)

The 2012 SCORE Baja 1000 -SUN CUP CHALLENGE is ON! For this first year, there will be just one rule (other than the SCORE rules): 100% electric driven (ie, no hybrids). no restrictions on the motors/drivetrain/chassis/batteries. The only fuel can be electrons! Rick indicated that he anticipates that his entry will average approx. 70 miles between battery change-outs.

This is a great opportunity to be part of something new with a substantial 1st place prize! Who is in?