easy toyota lift spindles (keep A arms parallel)

[geoff]

The setup im building will use a vertical heim joint at the top of the spindle, and a horizontal uniball at the bottom, so that steering will be the limiting factor, not the wheel travel (except the lower of course). A picture of this type of setup can be seen here:


or more specifically



also, on the lower part of the spindle, i plan on running a horizontally mounted uniball/spherical bearing. This mounting is a tight confine so it looks like a 1" would be the best bet. It will be similar to the following pics where you can see the horizontal uniball all the way at the bottom of the spindle (hard to see i know, sorry about that).

But here is the interesting thing. If you look realllllly closely at the total chaos spindle it is a normal toy spindle, but all they did was move the location of the ball joint to above the mounting point on the spindle, and correspondingly extended the mounting point for the upper arm up 3.5 inches. If you have ever taken apart a stock toy spindle, its pretty surprising but that entire stock ball joint could fit in the spindle from the top if there was no ream, and the hole was straight. All i need to do is drill and tap the lower out then make new lowers that will allow me to mount the ball in them, and while it should provide a decent amount of travel, the number wont be huge, the key part is that using a setup like this creates a lift spindle which allows one to keep the arms horizontal (parallel) to the ground so that all the energy is in the y direction, nothing wasted in the x direction.

and

as well as


I am probably using a 7/8" upper heim with a 1/2" hole and a 1" lower uniball.

here is a pic of the arms even with the ground




wondering why no one else has made lift spindles like this?


"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

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[cleartoy]

You bring up alot of good points. It is actually just that easy to make lift spindles. After i put the TC kit on mine, i was like, damn, those spindles could be duplicated.

Show us your project when you are done.

85 Toyota xtracab 4x4(for sale)
94 Toyota stdcab 2x4
99 Yamaha YZ250

Got Sand??

[Donahoe]

Very true... But you wouldnt BE A MONKEY NUT AND COPY someone elses development would you? No you bought one and for that you are smart.. Give credit where credit is Due. Total chaos worked hard to develop that kit. Dont go copying it. Buy the damm thing... ITS DONE AND RIGHT.... Plus if it breaks you have someone to ** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]** at. Dream up new stuff... Like the teliscoping ball joint...

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[ntsqd]

If you keep the A arms parallel you really change where the roll center is, and you lose whatever Camber curve might have been there stock. Not sure that these are bad things, just pointing them out.
I keep hearing that the camber curve doens't matter in the dirt. That may be true, but I can't help but think that if you have a well developed vehicle, the camber curve has been at least looked at. Maybe not as finely tuned as a CART car, but something at least.
Moving the roll center up is probably the most desirable part of the whole excursion. The only reason road racer's have such low roll centers is because the camber curve puts it there and a proper curve is more important than the RC height. Since the curve isn't as important here, getting the RC up will mean less roll in corners and, if you can get the RC above the CG, a tendency for the vehicle to gather itself back over the suspension rather than flopping over when landing out of shape.

TS

"It only seems kinky the first time"
-- Bumpersticker seen in Lost Wages

[geoff]

thanks, but beleive it or not, just because i came up with the same idea as TC doesnt mean i went and copied it. I had been planning on doing a setup like this for a little while and it never occured to me that all TC does when they make the spindles is the same thing i was doing. I actually thought they fabricated it completely, i didnt realize they used a stock setup, until looking really really closely at their pics.

Not everyone can afford a 4k$ setup anyway, and its no secret that while their stuff is great, it is overpriced.

If this kit breaks then ill learn why it broke and ill make it better so it doesnt break. I have a race car that soaks up most of my funds so this project is as low budget as i can keep it. If that means making a setup that someone already thought of and being a "monkey nut", sorry. I understand that its ** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**** [I]¡Ay, caramba![/I]**ty to have someone go and duplicate hard work, but im not selling it, my setup is no more/less innovative than theirs and as far as i can tell, pretty much every high end lift kit shares a number of similarities, and its all the same in the long run.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[geoff]

thanks tom, thats a good point, but im not sure how the camber curve would really change if the distance that the lower is moved up, the upper is moved up an identical distance? That way the arms are still in the same relation to one another, and the wheel still mounts on the same plane as previous. The only difference is that the arms mount higher up, their movements are the same and the wheel still sees the same arc (s).

another thing that is nice about having that heim on the top of the spindle will be that i can raise and lower the upper just by spinning the heim, this will change the camber curve so i can play around until i find something i am happy with.

Now that i have gone to and fro on the ball joint vs spherical issue about 30 times, im back to looking at the ball joints. The SCP one i previously mentioned should be able to do about 45 degrees and based on all the stuff over at pirate4x4 all those guys swear by ball joints, their cheaper, more reliable, and easier (far easier!) to get. I just need to figure out how to mount one and i may end up doing that...

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[Kritter]

Nothing is wrong with ball joints, find some heavy duty ones and make them fit on the lowers. For the uppers use a heim or uniball. As for adjsuting the arm height with the heim to change the camber curve...watch your bumpsteer when doing that.

Kris

[geoff]

yeah good point on the bumpsteer, i will jsut have to cycle it a whole lot until it works.

i need to find a ball joint that will clear the upright portion of the spindle, but still be strong enough. Any recommendations for ball joints besides Stock Car Products. Those ones listed on their site are actaully just AFCO ball joints, but im going to drive around phx and see what i can find at local shops. thanks.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[ntsqd]

Make scale pattern & trace the stock set-up's travel path on some grid paper. I've used heavy construction paper for the links and thumb tacks for the anchors & pivots. Then do the same for your proposed design. Iterate until you like what you see. Then check to see if that will actually fit on the frame. Then iterate again.......
Alternatively, Allan Staniforth offers his "String Computer" concept in his book on race car design. I don't remember it well enough to describe it, best to buy the book.

The way I was reading your proposal was that you intended to make both arms parallel to each other, but regardless of what you end up doing if the suspension pivot distances don't grow in exact proportion to stock you will alter the camber curve. And perhaps other things.

Bumpsteer is a gooey subject. Most of what I've read says that if the inner tie rod pivot is, say, 60% up of the distance btwn the inner pivots, and lies on the line btwn those points, then the out needs to be 60% up and on the line btwn the outer points. From what I've seen this mostly works, if you can actually get the parts to fit there. If not, back to the iteration process. You might see if you can devise a method using the above cardboard & thumbtacks routine to predict where they really need to be.

TS

"It only seems kinky the first time"
-- Bumpersticker seen in Lost Wages

[RacrDude]

RE: BE A MONKEY NUT AND COPY

You mean R&D don't you...hehe

Rip off & Duplicate