Class 10 cars are faster than Class 8 and Protruck

[klop90]

S.C.O.R.E. needs to start them right after Class 1.

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[BSchlimme]

I'll have some interesting data hopefully to post tomorrow regarding this issue.

Stay tuned....

[Terrie_Tavis]

There were eight class eights lined up directly behind me at a VORRA race two months ago. Only one managed to slip past me. It would be a messy start to have to pass them all right off the line...

Bad Ass Toys Aren't Just For Boys!!!

[Jimmy8]

This is really not going to go anywhere. If you take the fastest class 10's, meaning the ones that race SCORE, take the fastest class 8's, meaning the ones that run in BITD, and take the Protrucks, I believe you will find that they will all be pretty close to the same. Sure each class has stand out drivers, and machinery, but on the average I think they are all pretty much the same speed. The reason that every organization starts them in different orders is the fact that every organization has different vehicles that show up to their races. i am sure if Kyle Taylor, and dave westhem started showing up to VORRA races that class 8 would probably start in front of class 10.

[BSchlimme]

O.K. as I promised here are some stats....

Compiled are the following from each SCORE race since San Felipe in 1999:
1 - 1st in Class 10 time
2 - 1st in Pro Truck time
3 - MPH for 1st Class 10
4 - MPH for 1st Pro Truck
5 - Average of top 3 finishers time for Class 10
6 - Average of top 3 finishers time for Pro Truck
7 - Average of top 3 finishers MPH for Class 10
8 - Average of top 3 finishers MPH for Pro Truck

Resuts:
1/2 - Class 10 faster 10/13 races
3/4 - Class 10 faster 11/13 races (1-tie)
5/6 - Class 10 faster 12/13 races
7/8 - Class 10 faster 12/13 races

The majority of wins for Pro-Truck over 10 came at the hands of the late great Larry Plank.

How does SCORE justify starting a slower class in front of a faster class. I'll wait to discuss this with SCORE and Sal before I speculate.

If any Pro Truck racers want to cut the data to better serve their case I'll be more than happy to listen. But as it stands the facts as I see it prove that Class 10 outperforms Pro Trucks race-in and race-out in SCORE.

Ben

[Terrie_Tavis]

Thats a good point Jim, however the ratio would probably be the same at each venue. In other words, the SCORE 10's vs the SCORE 8's...and the VORRA 10's vs the VORRA 8's. A lot depends on the course too. If the course has a lot of straight and fast sections, I doubt very seriously that I could keep up with the horse power of a class 8 truck. On the other hand, If the course is very technical, its hard for the trucks to keep up with the agility of a 10 car. There are many variances. Personally, in this point of my racing career, and at the venues I run (VORRA and MDR), I feel that the running order (of 8's following 10's) is appropriate. Also, I should mention, I usually try to not second guess the rules made by the promoters (and I apologize if I came across that way). They see the whole picture, where as I'm totally focused on just one thing. Its an interesting topic tho, and I hope that theres more input.

Bad Ass Toys Aren't Just For Boys!!!

[scott]

I totally agree with you. If you take the best drivers of each class and combine them, you'd find all of them to be pretty close on time. The deal is that, there's more class 10 driver's that are better, than pro-truck, even though I think Pro-truck is probably better on paper. And with Class 8, well, its a dying class, not that many vehicles, and drivers.........

[rdc]

And you have to keep the discussion on one sanctioning body too. This thread started as a SCORE 10 car question. And as far as SCORE is concerned, over all, the 10's are faster than ProTrucks & 8's.

<font color=red>Shaun<font color=red>

[Mark_Miller]

I think the 10 cars that did get passed by the pro-trucks would be very upset. It is hard to be gentle in a truck when you have to bump to get by. I know the buggy guys think that the truck guys hit them hard on purpose but it's not the case it's just a lot more weight and momentum typically. Maybe in some of the smaller racing organizations this may work but not in score. There may be a 10 car out there that is as fast as a pro truck, i doubt it, but maybe. Why put the rest of the 10 guys in such a bad position of getting hammered by trucks. And unless your going to make a case that 10 cars are faster than 1 cars you really have no basis. All that data I saw is silly, look at the split times from the baja 500, there wasn't a 10 car even close. I'd take shepard/ragland vs you pick-em 10 car. I wonder what clay thinks? clay you rode in my truck, you out there? thoughts? you're a 10 guy, is it just me or do the pro-trucks work pretty good?
Mark Miller

[BSchlimme]

Mark,
I cannot understand the basis for your comment that the FACTS that I posted are "silly". I have to beg to differ with your interpretation of the facts.

I went back to look at the ONE race you pointed out, the Baja 500, and the ONE fact that you are zeroing in on SPLIT TIMES. I'm not seeing the same data you are claiming exists - " look at the split times from the baja 500, there wasn't a 10 car even close".

Looking into the split times at the 2001 Baja 500 there is some wacky timing going on for the first 3 split times but after that the Pro Truck of Hoffman only topped Ellison 1x out of 6 splits. Bottom line shows that the Pro Trucks were smoked by the 10 cars at the 500 this year. If the Pro Trucks dominated on split times than Rick Ellison wouldn't have beat the 1st Pro Truck by 0:48:45!!!

For the 2001 Baja 500 the 1st 10 Car averaged 41.281 vs. 1st ProTruck averaged 38.605. FACT is that the fastest ProTruck would have placed 4th in the 10 class. So maybe you should think twice about your comment that "there wasn't a 10 car even close".

The data I posted in the above post is certifiable FACT and not just 1 race, it is 3 years of data. I did not stack the deck and only pull one race. I did not stack the deck and zero in on only split times. Split times do not show consistency and true finishing fact. The data I put on the post is 3 years of data while you are leaning on 1 race?

Can you translate the following comments into English:
"And unless your going to make a case that 10 cars are faster than 1 cars you really have no basis."

We are not making a case that the 10's should be starting in front of the 1's so what relevance does this have?

A ten car that has to pass the slower Pro Truck generally will have caught them in a rough section because a 10 Car is not faster than a Pro Truck on a smooth road. But when a 10 car has to try and overtake a much heavier truck trying to bump them to let them know we are there becomes a real challenge.

The rear of a Pro Truck is up and down in the rough and every time I have had to get by a Pro Truck in SCORE, in the rough, I risk sticking my 10 car underneath the rear end of the Pro Truck. Inevitably I end up putting my bumper into the side of a rear tire and end up seeing fiberglass and fuel spouts flying off in the process.

On the other hand a "faster" Pro Truck that catches a 10 car on a smooth road does not face these challenges. It is a hell of a lot easier to put a bumper on somebody on a fast section than it is through the rough of San Felipe or Primm.

If you want to talk intelligently about this situation, do your homework, bring it to the table and I would be glad to hear your side of the story. Until you are willing to back up your comments with fact and fact that goes beyond 1 race and split times I say you step back and let those that have the facts speak.

And if Clay rode in your truck than I will gladly talk with him to see his opinion on the situation. But Clay runs primarily SNORE and this thread is about SCORE not SNORE. Put Danny Anderson, Rick Ellison or Mark Hutchins in your truck and then if they say that 10 cars should not start in front of the Pro Trucks in SCORE than I am almost positive the 10 class would not argue with it.

How much are you willing to put your Ragland/Shepard team against Danny Anderson at the Primm – I’m always ready for a friendly wager?

Respectfully and competitively yours,
Ben Schlimme
SCORE Class 10