IS 5/1600 a dieing class

[Motelcambodia]

If I read the rule it does say "maintaining stock geometry" I think they are talking about the swing arc of the axle arms not the camber of the wheels. I believe the rule allows any wheel alignment. and camber of the wheel is not part of the geometry of the swing.

I hope so or all of the 5/1600 cars would be DQ Class 11 is restricted like the way your saying not 5/1600

Brian

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[harleys dad]

Sorry to say stock geometry is the wheel placement threw the travel as well it says the pivots must be in the stock position which is cut and dry. The only way to read it. A lowered pivot instantly changes the geometry. You cannot have stock geometry with the wheel straighten out. because you have changed the geometry No way! This was argued in court in the very early 1980s as part of a protest(not by me) at a Baja de saddleback race. The judge was very clear what stock meant as well as the geometry With those simple words you cant build the camber out in your arms either but it is completely ignored. You will notice 1/2 1600 rear suspension rules are not worded like 5/1600, In 5/1600 rules unless it tells you specifically you can do something you cannot touch it. It says it perfectly clear but the super majority choose to ignore it. Just like Ramseys statement about ram power steering, there is no way possible to use it legally and follow the rule book What the book says is things have to stay the way Vw designed it, not the way a fab shop thinks is better. That is why 5/1600 went from 50+ entries to single digits, nobody seams to follow the rules and none are enforced and when it is brought up others want the book ignored so the ones who chose to ignore the rule book can race which drives away the ones who follow the rules. Pretty dumb that rules are not taken serious anymore. The beginning and restrictions in the rule book are the same for 11 and 5/1600, the rule book tells you the only things you can do, if it does not say you can do it it has to be left alone

[Wilson]

Sorry to say stock geometry is the wheel placement threw the travel as well it says the pivots must be in the stock position which is cut and dry. The only way to read it. A lowered pivot instantly changes the geometry. You cannot have stock geometry with the wheel straighten out. because you have changed the geometry No way! This was argued in court in the very early 1980s as part of a protest(not by me) at a Baja de saddleback race. The judge was very clear what stock meant as well as the geometry With those simple words you cant build the camber out in your arms either but it is completely ignored. You will notice 1/2 1600 rear suspension rules are not worded like 5/1600, In 5/1600 rules unless it tells you specifically you can do something you cannot touch it. It says it perfectly clear but the super majority choose to ignore it. Just like Ramseys statement about ram power steering, there is no way possible to use it legally and follow the rule book What the book says is things have to stay the way Vw designed it, not the way a fab shop thinks is better. That is why 5/1600 went from 50+ entries to single digits, nobody seams to follow the rules and none are enforced and when it is brought up others want the book ignored so the ones who chose to ignore the rule book can race which drives away the ones who follow the rules. Pretty dumb that rules are not taken serious anymore. The beginning and restrictions in the rule book are the same for 11 and 5/1600, the rule book tells you the only things you can do, if it does not say you can do it it has to be left alone

Absolutely correct! You can have stock (legal) geometry or "ideal" (not legal) geometry - there are distinct advantages to having ideal geometry, but it's specifically NOT legal in SCORE's 5/1600 rule set!!

[01_el_tiburon]

wow, didnt know you couldnt/shouldnt change the rear housing. I know it come out to be the same lenght and size, no real advantage on changing it other than being stronger i guess, but rules are rules, havent seen a 5-1600 with a stock rear housing in years !!!
Ended up not changing mine out to .250 wall, just rewelded and did some reinforcement gussets on it.
harleys dads, when you say about the clearance for a steering ram, that doesnt apply if you use the charlyn valve right ?
i have it set up by the steering wheel, not down by the steering arms/wall.
and, are you saying that all 5-1600 with micros are illegal per the rule book if the tires are straight ?
If so, Wilson should have won every race in 5-1600 this year and all the rest DQed !!

[Gonzo 5/1600]

Harleys Dad is right on with this one... the "stock geometry" is wrongfully ignored by most 5/1600 cars. When I walk down the line at staging of every race we've run I see pretty much every other car sitting way too nice to be maintaining stock geometry of the pivots.

When we built our car we took great care to locate our aftermarket pivots in the stock VW location, this leaves us with positive camber at ride height and an arc of camber change throughout the range of travel. We were even told by another well known 5/1600 racer that we were "wrong" in doing it the legal way and needed to go back and change the pivot location (illegal). We quietly listened to his suggestion but chose to stay within the rules.

[NIKAL]

I can say I agree 110% with Dave and Ramsey on this and both those guys know I have not always agreed with them in the past on things. Aftermarket rear torsion housings is a big NO, NO! El Tiburon, You say you have not seen a stock rear housing in years? Then whoever your using to build your cars and others is cheating and his cars should all be DQ'ed if entered in a race. Also like the rules say the rear trailing arm pivots can be added, replaced or beefed up, but MUST be put in the original stock location as found on a stock rear IRS housing. The main reason for allowing the addition of trailing arm brackets was for older swing axle pre-IRS pans to be used. And for those who think moving the rear trailing arm bracket down a bit is not cheating. Well it is and those cars need to be DQ'ed also. Its not hard to tell if they are dropped and ARTS crew should be looking at this, but for some reason they have turned a blind eye. Maybe it's because of who is building some of these cars? I'm not here to say or judge. That is what Tech is suppose to do.

I can say that the Nikal Motorsports 5/1600 is legal and has a stock rear torsion housing that has been trust underneath for strength, Our rear trailing arm brackets are stock in the stock location. We did modify them by doing the bolt threw the rear horns, thus elimination the weaker stock trailing arm bolt. BTW this modification is legal and Bill Savage has said so back in 2003. Our front clip has only been notched 1 inch for the tie rods and I can say that Tim Lawrence at TLR worked hard and came up with a way to make a Ram Power Steering system work without having to cut out the pan head. Dave I know you think it cant be done, but Tim did it and I think you would know Tim well enough to know he would not cheat, especially since we let him drive our car once in awhile. I would have been pissed if our car was made illegal to make P.S work.

[Motelcambodia]

Now I'm more confused then ever. I thought I read micro stubs are legal in 5/1600? Also your allowed 1" longer then stock arms.
If you add 1" don't that change the geometry?

As for pivot points both my cars are IRS cars and I don't plan on changing the pivot just the through bolting and reinforcing and a truss.
Is there more then 1 supplier selling SCORE approved 1' over rear arms that has a different camber? Or are they custom built and you tell them what camber you want?
I'm thinking if most the 5/1600 cars are running less or more then stock camber . There should be more clarification in the rule book I think its too late to DQ all the 5/1600 cars now.
My opinion is toe in and out and camber is a wheel alignment and not part of the geometry they are talking about because arms can bend and the camber will change. But I'm good any way I not bought any rear arms yet .
This is all good Information I'm learing a lot I just dont want to get every one pissed at me if they DQ all the cars now. Wow what did I start.

Brian

[harleys dad]

My meaning was if the pan head was cut out for the ram Todd not pointing at anyone. The sharlynn can be mounted up where the steering wheel can attach rite to it Tiburon, The lines connect rite to it. It is a much simpler set up forsure. I have the same sharlynn on my 1600 car that was put on when we built the car in the early 1980s, very strong, no problem part. A ram steering has more things that can go wrong and is very hard on the chassis where ever it is mounted. As you can see the rules are not enforced the way they once were and the class has sufferd very heavily because of it. Art and Bill Savage as well as the other teck inspectors have turned both eyes to the 5/1600 class, it is a shame because so many cars still exist that wont race because of the huge things a lot of the 5/1600 cars have gotten away with. On one hand I can see because they dont want a hassle but why have rules if they are going to let things slide.

[harleys dad]

Now I'm more confused then ever. I thought I read micro stubs are legal in 5/1600? Also your allowed 1" longer then stock arms.
If you add 1" don't that change the geometry?

As for pivot points both my cars are IRS cars and I don't plan on changing the pivot just the through bolting and reinforcing and a truss.
Is there more then 1 supplier selling SCORE approved 1' over rear arms that has a different camber? Or are they custom built and you tell them what camber you want?
I'm thinking if most the 5/1600 cars are running less or more then stock camber . There should be more clarification in the rule book I think its too late to DQ all the 5/1600 cars now.
My opinion is toe in and out and camber is a wheel alignment and not part of the geometry they are talking about because arms can bend and the camber will change. But I'm good any way I not bought any rear arms yet .
This is all good Information I'm learing a lot I just dont want to get every one pissed at me if they DQ all the cars now. Wow what did I start.

Brian

Not on a Vw, they were never made to adjust the camber ever

[NIKAL]

Now I'm more confused then ever. I thought I read micro stubs are legal in 5/1600? Also your allowed 1" longer then stock arms.
If you add 1" don't that change the geometry?

As for pivot points both my cars are IRS cars and I don't plan on changing the pivot just the through bolting and reinforcing and a truss.
Is there more then 1 supplier selling SCORE approved 1' over rear arms that has a different camber? Or are they custom built and you tell them what camber you want?
I'm thinking if most the 5/1600 cars are running less or more then stock camber . There should be more clarification in the rule book I think its too late to DQ all the 5/1600 cars now.
My opinion is toe in and out and camber is a wheel alignment and not part of the geometry they are talking about because arms can bend and the camber will change. But I'm good any way I not bought any rear arms yet .
This is all good Information I'm learing a lot I just dont want to get every one pissed at me if they DQ all the cars now. Wow what did I start.

Brian

Yes Micro Stub's are legal, Yes 1 inch longer rear trailing arms are legal. I dont believe Score's rule book says anything regarding camber adjustment via the trailing arm. I could be wrong as I have not gone back and looked at the rule book lately. I would think because you are allowed to use a 1 inch longer aftermarket arm that if you changed the camber at the hub face that it would be ok, but please dont take my word for it. Call Score for more clarification.