We cant police ourselves, we have already lost the battle

[450grl]

I read the report - which quoted portions of the permit requirements that needed to be followed/and were agreed upon, as well. It seems that those requirements were indeed voilated.....now, I guess my question is....have these always been in writing? Are any of these stipulations new? Have these always been agreed upon and upheld in the past, or has the BLM sort of looked the other way in the past and allowed series' to sort of skate by? Just trying to wrap my head around what is happening....since I have just started racing desert this season.

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[bajaxp]

I would like to see the review Casey got from SS. I have a hard time believing the BLM used the same rediculous level of scrutiny as they did for the MINT. Some of the BLM's criticism seem legitimate, but most of it is petty crap, especially the environmental damage bit. I wouldn't be suprised if they start cracking down on Casey next.

Your point is valid, but I think that the late fees, late docs, and lack of responsiveness by the promoter to concerns, really got under the BLM's skin. Casey is not perfect, but he is really pro-active on addressing the BLM's concerns, getting all of the impact studies done, making extra sure we comply with the people that permit the races. I don't like the thought of getting a penalty for 'roosting the highway' but I did make sure I didn't do this at the SS300...why...because Casey made a huge point about it. And the 25 mph speed limit in the pits and the 25 mph speed limit for the first six mile of the SS300 through desert tortouse land etc. So I do think the BLM might have been extra hard on SNORE, but it might be because of their track record from 2010 and from the paper trail (or lack thereof) leading up to this years' race. And yes we can certainly do a better job of policing ourselves and our fellow racers, but knowing the 'sensitive issues' up front certainly helps. Typically these are brought to my attention on the promoters website, in the Final Information Pack and at the Drivers meeting. Again, I truely hope this works out for SNORE.

[WickedGravityVideo]

WOW.. . I just read the finding of the BLM and it really blasts the participants big-time! If half of the allegations are true, then I am ashamed of what violations occurred. I have nothing but respect and love for SNORE....I hope there is a logical rebuttal to some of the alleged violations.

I am disappointed that there were some media running around with out vests.... that bothered the BLM.

I personally did not see anything particularly dangerous at the race, and I was running all over the place all day, but I am only one set of eyes. I never saw a situation that could end up like the CA200 tragedy, as the BLM report mentions it saw the makings of a repeat.

This is bad news for racing on public lands.... I feel that private land is the answer. Period.

[Mxrider909]

The "disturbance" photos appear to me to be very small changes in the course small sections widened by 5-10 feet, is that really whats harming the lands a 10 foot wide track through the massive dessert is now 15 foot wide?!

[bonehead1]

The widening of the course by 5-10 ft is exactly what they are say is harming the land. At the next race in that area, some people will blow corners or try to pass in the vegetation and it will become 5-10 ft wider and so on and so on. If we want to continue to race by the BLM rules we have to realize that the course is the course , and there is no vegetation on the course. If your tire rolls over any plant for any reason that is an infraction. So it seems simple don't blow any corners, don't pass in the weeds keep your car on course and all will be fine

[Vtr_Racing]

That last pic is just a bunch of BS. Give us a "corridor" to go with. I wasnt at the drivers meeting so I cant say what is what but that last pic seems just fine to pass on either side. Now I also have not read the BLM findings so I wont comment on how I feel yet about a one sided evaluation.

After looking at those photos there seemed to be alot of course deviations. Not just a couple of missed corners but blatent corner cutting and avoiding whoops/marked course. As much as I do not like the BLM overall they have a good reason to be pissed. We cannot race like that. Cant do it guys just cant do it.

[tcrperformance]

Attempting to have a course permitted in AZ for the past 2 + yrs I do have some understanding of what is required and it sure was going a lot smoother until the "accident".

The NUMBER 1 issue and concern with ANY permit issuing agency is "Public" safety, the participants, pit crew, chase, sweepers, etc. is not their primary concern. Joe public in the wrong place at any time will get any promoter in a heap of trouble. Thats basically a dagger in the heart from a permit standpoint! Next to a jet falling out of the sky, there is no excuse permitted.

Permits are legal binding contracts, period!

Race courses are documented by GPS / GIS, way points are documented every 20 to 50 ft of the ENTIRE course in the center, and 10 ft on each establishes the width. THAT is the course! Blowing a turn and taking out a bush, these are all situations that the promoter gets to deal with after everyone has gone home.
Its easier and far more lucrative to construct a skyscraper than permit a off road race currently, survey after survey and the government generally performs it cheaper than a private business.

The only way many of us will be able to continue is we have to police our selfs and stick our necks out there, if you see anything that is not right you better stop and try to fix it, or there may not be another race.

Night racing in the states on public lands is dead!

The rules and requirements are NOT new, they have not been enforced, its all been there on paper.

You want to make desert racings future sustainable, GET OUT THERE AND VOLUNTEER, don't say your going to do it, DO IT! One of the biggest gut wrenching issues for a promoter is having enough staff.

Unless major changes take place, in the next 2 yrs there will only be 1 promoter here in the states for open desert races on public lands.

Cassy has this permit situation figured out to a science.

Its certainly one big challenge a head of us all.

[alloyz]

The BLM is looking for a way to stop desert racing. And after desert racing is gone, it will be the weekend recreationalists that will be pegged to go. As for those ridiculous pictures, who is to say all of the "course widening" was from the 2011 Mint race? I remember seeing huge amounts of trail widening through the years in Jawbone, and within a few years of those trails being closed there was NO WAY to even tell a trail once existed. This whole report is the interpretation of the BLM, and they will say and do what they choose to. There is NO unbiased governmental reporting of any offroading in America anymore. Wicked Gravity is correct, there is only one way to save our sport and that is on private lands. If that's possible.

[hendersoned]

If you want to purchase public land like BLM or Bof Rec lands in Nevada you can file for a recreational purposes agreement lease or purchase. If the use is public (like an off-road race open to all with the $$ and proper equipment) you can lease or purchase for 50% of fair market, if the Department of the Interior and BLM office approves the sale. So 100,000 acres at $10K is "worth" $1B, sign 50 year lease for $500M, we need to raise $25M a year to cover the nut, hold 20 events a year with 100 to 250 participants (say 200 to make the math easy) your entry fee is $6250 each, per event to buy the land

Anybody else got an idea??

[NIKAL]

Like I mention on the other thread. I would like to see before race pictures. I'm 99.9% sure the BLM does not have any. So how can they ultimately prove that the course was not that wide prior to the race. Also what was the course boundaries, 50 feet from center or 150 from center of trail? Because using the picture above I would have to think both trails would be legal trails to be on. Also there has to be a way to pass. A 10 foot wide trail is not going to work and the BLM knows this. And as far as running over vegetation, many times you are not purposely trying to run it over. But as you can see these courses get very silty. How many times have you wandered off course due to not being able to see? I know it has happened to me. You pop out of the dust and you are off course.

Many of the tire tracks shown in the BLM pictures are clearly not race vehicle tracks. Most likely they are rovers, retrieval or BLM Ranger tracks. During the race driving next to the course is the only way to get to a location or to a broke down vehicle and the BLM knows this. How was the BLM Rangers getting out to these areas during the race without being on the course? Could they have been running over vegetation? Could those tracks have been out there weeks prior from the general off-roading public? Because it would be legal anytime during the year when a race is not going on to run over a bush or drive in sensitive areas, and the BLM is OK with this.

In the report it mentions a retrieval vehicle paralleling the course and was told to stay on the course. If that retrieval vehicle would have driven down the course instead of doing what they did and driving next to it, there would have almost for sure been an accident between a race vehicle and retrieval vehicle that could have resulted in death.