5/1600 motor rules

Discussion in 'Shop - Engine' started by TracStarRacing, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. TracStarRacing

    TracStarRacing New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    NORTH LAS VEGAS,NV
    hi my familys been racing offroad for awail but im starting a team and starting out in a 5/1600 car but i was going ovr the snore rule book and it say basicly a stock 1600 what oi have to use (no aftermarket pistons, carbs,rods). Is there any leway or anything or if i do does that automaticly put me in the unlimited class. Also is it the same rules for every sanctioning body(mdr,score,snore)
  2. Tipracer

    Tipracer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Location:
    So. CA
    all the sanctioning bodies use the same rules for the 5-16 motor, you really cant do anything to the internals(but you can change the valve train significantly...while remaining stock concept), but there are a lot of little things that the really good motor builders do that make the difference...you should be able to get 80-90 h.p. kenny, mailman, romo all make great motors. what you really want is a motor you dont have to touch until the end of the season, you should get 2000 to 2500 race miles between rebuilds.
  3. TracStarRacing

    TracStarRacing New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    NORTH LAS VEGAS,NV
    cool can you tell me if the 5/unlimited can be built anyway i want, What the signifacant difference between the to cars. Can I basicle build the car anyway I want if i choose to build an unlimited car
  4. FullsizeFun

    FullsizeFun Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Location:
    South Bay, Redondo Beach
    Basic rules for each class, to get an idea of what you are getting into.

    5-1600; stock wheelbase, stock width, stock length front arms, +1 rear arms, full pan, full body other than 1 peice front end and rear engine area, 1600 engine, bus tranny.
    Competitive car cost to build $30k-45k.

    5-open; 105" wheelbase, width is open, arm length is open, no pan = full tube chassis, minimal body required, Engine - Open VW/Porsche 4 cyl, Tranny - Open.
    Competitive car cost to build $60-100k.

    Used/Outdated cars can be picked up for less obviously.

    I have an ALL NEW 5-1600 project roller for sale.
  5. danger93215

    danger93215 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Location:
    Delano, CA
    Do you still have the roller 5/1600 for sale? Let me know

    thanks Ben
  6. Gonzo 5/1600

    Gonzo 5/1600 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Location:
    Carlsbad, California

    Actually according to the SCORE rulebook we built our car by you can't touch the valve train at all, the only thing you are allowed to do to the (stock) heads is fly cut for more compression ratio, swivel foot adjusters and change the valve springs, that's it! No big valve heads, ratio rockers, or porting/polishing.

    Other aspects of the motor have different specific rules that you should really get a rulebook to read about if you want a truely LEGAL 5/1600 motor.
  7. Wilson

    Wilson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Location:
    Carlsbad, CA
    Be wary of the dyno numbers you hear thrown around about 5/1600 motors - lots of claims but very little verifiable fact. Different dynos give very different results for the same motor. We've seen motors that the (reputable) builder claims makes 90 hp. make much less (30 hp less) on another dyno..... You can draw your own conclusions about why or how that might be. Just take hp claims with a grain of salt. Any of the known builders can provide you with a legal and reliable engine for a price; unless you have experience building VW race motors, building your own could be challenging.

    As others have noted, there are some (important) things that can be done within the rules to increase power and improve longevity. Some of those things are obvious, others not, and some require advanced machine shop work to achieve. And, many of the things we'd like to do to gain power (big valves, port and polish, ratio rockers, etc.) are specifically not allowed. We race in SCORE events and have done our best to build the highest performance motor we can within those rules. I've talked with several other 5/1600 owners (who don't race SCORE) about their motors and was surprised by what they thought was legal. From those conversations, it seems that we don't really all use the same rules...... Decide what series you want to run and build a motor to that (or those) rule set(s).

    Good luck!
  8. TUBETECK

    TUBETECK Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2004
    Location:
    Phelan,Ca

    Unless you have a finacial institution in your back pocket stick with 5-16. I race in the MORE series and my motor is built by one of the top award winning engine builders. When I ordered the engine the one thing that I required was that it be SCORE legal(those are the rules we use) and last for 5000 miles or an entire season plus prerunning. I'm still running the same motor three years later, although its time to refresh it(knock on wood) but it still go's.
    Five unlimited your looking at a type four/porche motor to be competitive. Plus a stronger trans,coilover shocks, longer arms, bigger tires, the list goes on and on. I'm not trying to turn you from running either class but when I first started, I built the car to five unlimited rules, not know what I was getting into money wise. 5-16 is still a working mans class, kinda,. The only changes that have been made are due to spare parts becoming scarce, to aid in driver comfort, and increase the safety factor.
    Keep at it, its been nothing but for fun for me and my entire family.
  9. aaronh33

    aaronh33 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Location:
    tulsa, ok
    roughly how much would a race 5/1600 motor cost. i am starting to build a car and was wondering if i just called one of these guys up what kind of price would i be looking at. i have seen a few places that say a good motor should last 2000-2500 race miles. what kind of pre-race maintanice(sp) does it take to keep it running for that long.
  10. Allan

    Allan Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Location:
    Alpine Ca
    A well built 1600 race motor will cost over 6K. As far as getting 2,000 + miles good luck.
    Ken Major built all our motors for 6 years and 3 Championships. We would only run 1000 miles maximum on them before rebuild.
  11. NIKAL

    NIKAL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego
    Exactly what Allan said. We too race a 5/1600 with Kenny Major Performance power and these motors are not cheap. Also we have noticed and so have these engine builders that with the duel port motors, that you need to do valve jobs sooner. I guess the duel port motors have much higher cylinder head temps vs. the single port motors. If you plan on doing shorter not as demanding races you can get more miles out of a motor. But if you plan on racing the Baja 500 or the Mint 400 then expect to be servicing at least the top end after a race like those.
  12. aaronh33

    aaronh33 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Location:
    tulsa, ok
    is one better to start with than the other. single port vs dual port or do they each have their own advantages
  13. NIKAL

    NIKAL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego
    They have only started to allow duel port motors as of a few years ago. Before that single port was the only VW head you could use in the 1600 classes. Due to the availability Score started to allow the duel port heads. I will say there is a definite advantage to having the duel port motor, but I still think a single port can be competitive depending on the race.

    I put together the Best of the Best 5/1600 Shootout at the New Years Eve Dash, and we had 30 5/1600 show up and a handful of teams were still running the single port motor and I think we had a few finish in the top 10 in a 200 mile race. IMO a single port 5/1600 car with a good working suspension can overcome a 5/1600 with a duel port. All the power in the world is useless if you cant get it to go threw the bumps.
  14. TUBETECK

    TUBETECK Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2004
    Location:
    Phelan,Ca
    What Allan is saying is pretty much the general consensous with engine builders. If you can get a motor to last two races your doing good. But if your engine builder tells you to run it for 5000 miles before your bring it back and tells you that he'll replace everything that breaks before that, I,m kinda thinkin that its gonna last. Especially in these economic times it makes good sense to me. As far as price? It all depends on whoes building your motor, yes your gonna pay for the name, but with that name comes experience. Jeff tells me that he can build a longblock fairly cheap but it wont have all the dyno hours and tuning that he puts in them to make the peak performance he expects out of his race motors. Its all up to you and your pocket book, Speed costs money how fast do you want to spend, starting out I would'nt worry about going out and trying to win a championship the first year. It will come with experience and time and by then you'll know that you as a driver did it and not your motor.
  15. DTZ QUAD RACER

    DTZ QUAD RACER New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Location:
    Peoria, Arizona
    What are you guys replacing when you rebuild a 1600 motor? Pistons, crank, bearings, valves, springs?
  16. razingkanemotorsports

    razingkanemotorsports Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Location:
    Tacoma Washington USA
    I'm Learning about these engines as well, what is a good camshaft for a 1600? I'm a budget racer and plan on building my own engines, If I can sqeeze 600hp out of a small block chevy this should be easy, I just need to learn the "tricks"
  17. Wilson

    Wilson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Location:
    Carlsbad, CA
    You can buy several different "off the shelf" performance cams for type 1 motors, but most of the race motor builders are using "custom grind" cams, and are not going to give you the specs..... They've worked long and hard to find the right combination and are not going to give away their competitive edge. You may be able to buy one from them, though. I'd start calling the well known builders to ask if they'd be willing to sell.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  18. Wilson

    Wilson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Location:
    Carlsbad, CA
    Todd is right, suspension setup is the key in 5/1600's. But, more power is always better. There will be times when you have more suspension than power...... Build a dual port motor, it shouldn't cost any more than a single port.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  19. VERN391

    VERN391 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Location:
    Freeburg, IL
    Contact WebCam, www.webcamshafts.com they have 4-5 options for Limited 1600 motor cams each with their own specs. depending on what you are looking for.
    Choose 1, race it and they can and will adjust to your requests. Remember these guys have a ton of dyno time invested in these and they work real well to get you in the ballpark as stated above the driver/handling will set the cars apart.

    JMHO

    Vern
  20. TUBETECK

    TUBETECK Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2004
    Location:
    Phelan,Ca


    Whoa I'd like squeeze 600hp out of my 1600 motor. Just kidding I'm sure its a typo. Yuuuup its all about motor and suspension these days in the 5-16 world, provided you got the drive train to handle it.

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