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Open Type 1 Trans for 2012 or 2013?

Discussion in 'Class 9' started by htown916, Sep 25, 2011.

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Tranny Rule for class 9, What do you want it to be?

Poll closed Oct 25, 2011.
  1. Open type 1 swing axle, no restrictions, any gears 1-4, any R&P

    54.5%
  2. No change, continue with current SCORE/SNORE rules

    4.5%
  3. Current rules, except allow aftermarket 1st and 2nd gears at stock ratios

    40.9%
  1. htown916

    htown916 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Location:
    Hanford, CA
    I know there are purist who never want to see this rule changed but I would like to see it opened up. I believe everyone is in agreement that with the current rules an aftermarket R&P is allowed as long as it maintains one of the two stock type 1 approved ratios. When you eliminate a weak link you will find the next weakest link, I understand this. I do however think that allowing an aftermarket 1st/2nd gear/mainshaft will not compromise the integrity or put any added stress on other parts of the drive train. As I said in a prior post, allowing dual port heads has definately put added stress on an already fragile drive train. A year ago there was another pole and it seemed very obvious to me the way the majority of racers felt, open type 1 trans. It was however not moved upon by any of the sanctioning bodies. I don't know if that will change this time, but I have never been one to give up when someone tells me, this is how it is and it's not gonna change.
     
  2. vaderoni

    vaderoni Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Location:
    Loomis, CA (sac)
    In the spirit of keeping competition fair, I voted for same rules, aftermarket 1st and 2nd. If you let the trans be completely open, the racers with loads of cash and/or time would be able to change ratios for a specific course, leaving others in the dust. Allowing a stronger 1st and 2nd will increase competition due to having a somewhat stronger transmission, and could theoretically decrease the chance of DNF.
     
    (+1) 1 person likes this.
  3. MARXICO

    MARXICO Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Location:
    Sky Valley Ca.

    Russell what 9 car do you own or race in ?

    How long have you been racing in this class?
     
  4. Johnson954

    Johnson954 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Location:
    Phelan, CA
    I think a total "open box" will cause a huge advantage for those who have a lot of money, but I don't see what the issue would be in allowing the aftermarket parts as long as it stays stock ratios. I think it will add cost initially, but reduce over the long run...and for those that don't have any issues breaking 1st and 2nd now, they don't have to make any changes.
     
  5. MARXICO

    MARXICO Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Location:
    Sky Valley Ca.
    Here is a question?
    Are you happy with your cars current gear ratio and performance…is it already fast enough?

    Would you be willing to spend additional money to get better performance from a proper gear ratio and a faster car while reducing the current stress on the motor and transmission?

    Would you be willing to miss one race to use those funds on your transmission and possibly have that onetime expense cover your yearly transmission budget?

    How much does your existing transmission cost you a season ?
     
  6. htown916

    htown916 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Location:
    Hanford, CA
    Wow 157 views and only 8 votes, and I don't even think all 8 are class 9 car owners. LOL
     
  7. NINERACER

    NINERACER New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Location:
    cathedral city
    with the current rules, some cars/drivers are way faster than others. Imagine a fast driver in a SS with a unlimited buget. how competitive that will be?
     
  8. MARXICO

    MARXICO Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Location:
    Sky Valley Ca.
    Jorge, regardless current rules there are cars / drivers that are faster than others simply because they have spent more time and money refining their program this is not a class where any one with no experience has went out bought a car and has dominated the class……the dominant teams have spent a lot of time and money to learn how to go fast, they just didn’t buy it.

    No offense but if you bought a competitive motor and trans from one of the winning shops instead of good guys starting out and or doing trades and favors your car would be faster and you would finish more races developing a more competitive program
    Is your concern that you are already driving too fast or would you be open to your car being faster?

    If you are convinced a single seater is faster have you considered removing one seat and making your car meet SS weight?
    Would you consider spending $1500 more up front for a transmission engineered to your wheel size and power to weight ratio that would deliver results that not only made your car faster but made your motor work less and transmission last one race season?
    I think that some one that has unlimited spending isn’t interested in a 9 car, but do believe that the fast cars have a real motor and trans and have already out spent you ….the problem already exist
    The subject about a open trans is first realizing we have been racing with gear ratios designed for stock VW tires, the current legal transmissions fail because there is room for improvement.

    Would you be willing to pay more up front for better performance and reliability...or do you like your current routine that requires additional labor and nickel and dimes you all season
     
  9. 3 Amigos Racing

    3 Amigos Racing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Location:
    Goodyear, AZ
    I think now that a weddle r/p is legal (the rule book seems to say it)

    and lets say you allow aftermarket made 1st and 2nd gears in the stock ratios?

    (I use stock 1st,2nd and VW r/p now and seem to have cracks and replace at every 2nd race)

    Besides open gearing (and I think "open gearing" is not the way to go) what else could you do to create an "open rules" transaxle that lasts and could be more economical in the long run over several races?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  10. NINERACER

    NINERACER New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Location:
    cathedral city
    Mark, I understand your point. The problem is Who will ensure your open trans will last the whole season. Our trans cost about $1500 and we spent like $350 every time we race. so far two dnf because trans problems, the first was my fault(i get to exited) and the second was lubricasion problem. My only mistake so far was to start with a brand new car and the wrong builder.
     
  11. Johnson954

    Johnson954 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Location:
    Phelan, CA
    In today's class 9 off road world, I think that you at least have to have 2 tranny's to be competitive...one set up for short course like BAP and the other for long desert races. Now depending on what tracks you race, with an open box how many different variables will those two boxes have to have. BAP will be different than Glen Helen and Barstow will be different than Lucerne or Mexico. So with an open box, we are talking about rebuilding your tranny every race, and now instead of saving money, we have increased the cost exponentially. I'm all for using aftermarket parts that are stronger and last longer, but to allow unlimited gear ratio combinations will really create diminished entries due to cost.
     
  12. MARXICO

    MARXICO Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Location:
    Sky Valley Ca.
    I think this scenario is unrealistic any one that would re-gear every race is obsessive and are not going bother spending their time or money in class 9.
    Is there a current problem now that any team is out spending the rest and winning due to money?
    I think a racer would find a gear combo that works overall verses per race
    Like you said you currently have a close ratio and a wide ratio trany .my point is that money is already being spent
     
  13. 3 Amigos Racing

    3 Amigos Racing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Location:
    Goodyear, AZ
    This year I dont see any one car being faster consistently race to race and the two seaters are kicking ass this year too on the course..I have been behind most all the two seaters this year and they look like they are handling well..you are seeing consistent prep and driving this year do the job.

    We can usually hang top 3 and I run a 2007 Victor Torres motor i bought with my old car and rebuilt twice since 2008. I cant seem to solve my carb issues yet though but also have not put any time into it. .I have found a great trans with JG Transwerks this year and the cost is no more than anyone else but I had to switch builders to find one that lasts..

    2010 and 2011 I dont see anyone outspending the others now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  14. mrmatt

    mrmatt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Location:
    garden grove,ca
    my question is how much longer is the trans supposed to last if we were to "open" the trans? Is the wazoo r&p really going to last a season? What about axles? As of yet we don't have axles that will last a season. My guess is that even if the trans was "open" you would still be going thru your trans every 2 races and finding things wrong.

    So I guess my vote is to allow aftermarket 1 and 2 with stock ratios but leave the rest the same. Like someone already said, if you don't break 1st and 2nd you have no reason to change. although I am also just fine with leaving things the way they are.
     
  15. Johnson954

    Johnson954 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Location:
    Phelan, CA
    I actually only have one tranny set up for long desert courses, and I suffered at BAP this year because of it. I got second place, but was not able to hang with Bud. If there is a BAP this next year, I plan to build a course specific tranny so I can give my best performance. Bud came with a specific built tranny this year, and if you plan to beat him, you will have to do the same. You can hope he breaks, but he hasn't the past 3 years, so that is not hoping for much, and not a very good game plan to win.

    Now if Pro 9 races this next year at Glen Helen, then you will have to put together a tranny to beat Steve Lang. You have a totally different tire combination, and short course set up, and the BAP set up will not compete for the win without Lang breaking....and that is just 2 short course races. Long desert races with an open box will be just the same.

    I have only broken 2nd gear twice and both times I was using a four puck clutch. Since I went to a stock clutch I have never had a problem. And I honestly think that this topic is a waste of time. We had the biggest support to changing the tranny's last year and it still didn't happen. We have been talking about this for at least 5 years now on here, and I don't see SCORE changing the rules. Dave wants to see a US vs Mexico race for Pro 9 this next year, and how are you going to facilitate that if you change the rule?....build another tranny just to race in Mexico? This will be my last post on this topic.....good luck.
     
  16. MARXICO

    MARXICO Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Location:
    Sky Valley Ca.
    Johnson 954 at least your eye were opened to what the proper gear ratio will do but it was by a ratio that is legal ,just proves the outspending already exist, but give Bud credit due to seat time and a program developed over time.
    I can’t really call this out spending just having a better program than the rest

    Glen Helen is a different situation the short course is buggy lite with different rules than c 9 if a group of 9 cars went out for a desert buggy points race it would be separate from the buggy lite, GH has 2 courses the Baja Cup is more suitable for desert cars
    Mexico, I doubt a group of 9 cars will make the trip due to logistics, chase and overall cost.
    Maybe that is why we don’t see any of Mexican entry’s here, it isn’t cost effective.
    If the Americans changed their c9 rules the Mexicans would also..They are not afraid to spend money to be competitive
    SCORE, again money and logistics, last month at San Felipe one 9 car entered & no limited car finished, I think entry totaled up around $1900
    Just to have your car SCORE tagged cost more than a MORE entry and is only good for a year
    Everything changes, at one time SCORE had a large 9 class and was the leader of how it is to be, most of the 9 car field would not pass a score inspection due to chassis requirements…so why use those rules if a majority would not pass
    Now you have to look at where the car count is that should be the deciding factor for rules should be established
    The truth is this is only a message board and we only have our own separate opinions that are not going to change a thing , our class has no representation that can stand on its own and relies on a set of old rules made by a organization that we don’t compete at any more …they evolved & we didn’t.
    With all the reasons not to change this subject is going nowhere
     
  17. htown916

    htown916 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Location:
    Hanford, CA
    I am just as disappointed as you that nothing happened last year when there was a lot of support for opening up the tranny rule. I would be satisfied with allowing aftermarket 1st and 2nd gears at the stock ratio. The only reason I voted for open tranny was as Joel Mohr pointed out in the other thread it is possible to run a 3.88 r&p and have gearing pass current tech requirements. I won't be re-gearing for every course and if pro 9 races gh the desert class 9 rules should still apply. I dont think that because it got shot down once that it means we should give up. And if MORE and SNORE adopt the modification SCORE will follow, if not I don't race score anyway. Even Joel said as a tranny builder he thought an open trans should last almost a whole season. My goal is to make this class a little more affordable and dependable. I don't have money to throw away on 2 race tranny parts and am just upgrading to dual port for the 2012 season! Ya, ya I've still been running my single port engines.
     
  18. Mohr

    Mohr Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Location:
    High Desert
    Speaking as a trans builder, I see VERY few blown 1st and 2nd gears. The weak link is the R&P. If you could change to a 3.88 and buy the associate 1st and 2nd to make the final drive ratio the same as stock, the trans would last MUCH longer....and the mainshaft would probably outlast the car! Not to cut my own throat, the vast majority of trans cost is labor...90% of my business is toys....
     
  19. harleys dad

    harleys dad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Location:
    Murrieta Ca
    that 1 lone class 9 car racing Score has more word on the subject of rule change than all the rest of class 9 combined! everyone follows Scores rule book to keep all classes on the same page and none of you have the slightest chance of changing the rules because you do not race with Score and anything you say to Bill Savage will go in one ear and out the other. The lone entry on the other hand has all the power to do anything they feel because they are Scores customer and I know they will have Scores ear. It would be class suicide to have different rules at different races with different race orgs . and to let htown916 in on something, Score follows no one, every other org follows Score and Scores rules. It has always been that way as long as I have been racing, I am sure that is why the rule change went down in flames when you had all kinds of suport to do this. Having different rule will destroy class 9
     
  20. 3 Amigos Racing

    3 Amigos Racing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Location:
    Goodyear, AZ
    SCORE is so far from limited VW reality any more that I bet they dont remember how to deal with the teching of a 9 car.. if SNORE didnt post the 9 cars rules on their website we all would have to pay SCORE for a membership in a series we cant afford to race just to see what they tell us the rules should be.. I would discount the future validity of SCORE book to control the direction of the class.
     

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