We cant police ourselves, we have already lost the battle

Discussion in 'Desert Racing' started by down4glamis, Jun 2, 2011.

  1. down4glamis

    down4glamis Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Location:
    Lake Mathews, CA
    Here are the Findings of the SNORE MINT 400 per the BLM... you get graded, A is good D is bad, and anything past that is mega fail... we got a U

    Please read up, and just think about what we did to ourselves at the MINT, and how HORRID the findings are going to be on the Dethrone 250.

    BLM Evaluation of the MINT 400

    We are not going to be able to recover from this, hopefully BITD races can still continue, but otherwise, the end is near and not many people in our field have done much to help. oh yea, you are right, 20 of you that **[​IMG] ¡Ay, caramba!****[​IMG] ¡Ay, caramba!****[​IMG] ¡Ay, caramba!****[​IMG] ¡Ay, caramba!****[​IMG] ¡Ay, caramba!** at me for saying not many came, you guys went, good job, pat on the back, but the other 25000 members on this board that didnt/dont contribute but milk the $$ offroaders bring, shame on you. i have been to 3 meetings to keep the deserts open, and now, it doesnt matter cause even with small rules, we cant abide by them and have shot ourselves in the foot, i do not understand why this hasnt been posted, and i hope this does not get buried.
  2. down4glamis

    down4glamis Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Location:
    Lake Mathews, CA
    desert racing is already on thin ice, and we have no one to blame but ourselves. baja cant hold 20 desert races a year, and now that PC is pretty much never getting used again, lucerne is just about gone, and no one races at barstow because it cant be policed, we are going to be SOL and all be joining the LORORS and LOORS series...
  3. JRod

    JRod _WRP_

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Location:
    AZ/CA/NV
    The problem is this is one side of the story... the allegations ALL have responses as I understand. I can personally speak to some of the "violations" at the SNORE250 as I was there and it is not as bad as BLM is making it out to be.... Clearly there is a war that has been waged on off-road racing in the US on BLM lands.

    There are always things that could be done "differently" or "better" and the off-road racing community has catered to the demands of the BLM, especially in light of the CA200 Accident. Bottom-line is the regional permit-writers have been put on notice that they going to be held PERSONALLY responsible in case of ANY mishaps at desert racing events... So, it's no surprise, they are very reluctant to permit any events and they are putting together an arsenal of every little thing they can to justify closure of our public lands to use for competition events.

    It's a shame - It will be a battle, but underdogs have come through all throughout history. Time to lace up the boots and get to work if we care about our sport and keeping our industry alive!
  4. down4glamis

    down4glamis Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Location:
    Lake Mathews, CA
    thats good to read J, but 3/4s of the racers going to baja, and 3/4s of the racers that entered the mint, and the other 3/4s of the racers that race BITD ACTUALLY HAVE BOOTS TO LACE UP AND DO SOMETHING! everyone is worried about the rockslide and un-passable pass in baja to care that we are going to lose our races right out from under them, and everyone is going to go...

    oh darn, we should of done more, tried harder, spoke louder, etc, but no one will get their boots dirty... how much $$ is being spent prerunning... 1% of that could of been used to supply the elements needed to succesfully hold the MINT 400... restrooms, manned people, and better pit responsiblity!
  5. coilover88

    coilover88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paso Robles, CA
    Fighting from an emotional base is easy. We all have it in us to react to things that change our routine/daily lives. What we ALL need to know now is that the game has changed. What we did 30 years ago is 30 years ago.What agencies want, expect, and demand now is what we have to deal with today. If we think it is wrong or intrusive, than we need to learn the system and fight it. I personally believe that the standards are deliberately being upped to "nudge" us out as Cass Sunstein, the regulatory czar, has proclaimed as a method to control the populous. 48,000 regs on the federal books after 235 years. 14,000 pending regs this year alone---nearly a 30% increase in fed regs for the citizenry in one year. 81,000+ pages in the federal register. We have to learn how the fight works or be defeated. Who wants to learn how to fight? The education is there for the learning. The promoters have to adapt. The participants have to drop the old school ways. It is a new dawn and we have to play their game until such time as we reclaim our standing as the bosses and the arbitrars of public use lands. We can be stubborn and loose or we can adapt and get along while we get the gov't straight on who is the boss in America. I will not give in but I will fight smart. Anybody with me?? Who wants to learn how to preserve racing in the desert? I am a novice at these land use issues but my aim gets better by the day. Are there any other "rookies" out there that will stand with me?? Just wondering.
  6. bajaxp

    bajaxp Baja Bobsled Team

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Location:
    Newport Beach, California
    I just read this: http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media... Race Evaluation - Final Signed 5-18-2011.pdf

    And you are blaming the racers and not SNORE? I guess I don't get your rant because Casey just got a grade of 'A' for the Silver State 300. Pretty much the same type of racers and spectators. Casey isn't afraid to ream the crap out of the people that pay his bills for things like short coursing, chasers on course, trash, etc. But things like safety personnel at road crossings and course entrances, port-a-pottys, and not the least getting your docs, fees and plan in on time are the responsibility of the race organizer.

    I certainly don't want to lose any land or see any races cancelled, but physically look at your hand when you 'point the finger' at someone. Notice that there are three fingers pointing back at you?
    1 person likes this.
  7. down4glamis

    down4glamis Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Location:
    Lake Mathews, CA
    oh trust me, i am no saint here, nor am i one to preach that i lead the path to follow... i am simply stating the facts, racers didnt have adequate pit supplies, changing trannys, short coursing, passing in the brush...

    snore had their own issues that you pointed back.

    i am 1st person to say, who ever has not sinner, cast the 1st stone... im not throwing anything but the facts that were presented and telling the people that participate in this forum its our own fault, ON TOP of SNOREs short coming... funny how many posts there ARENT even though this is HUGE...
  8. bajaxp

    bajaxp Baja Bobsled Team

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Location:
    Newport Beach, California
    Again, I read the whole doc and there are three grades, A = acceptable, P = probationary, and U = unsatisfactory. As D4G said, SNORE got a 'U.' We will have to see how this effects the 2012 Mint. I for one don't want to see anything happen to this classic desert race.
  9. DaveGores

    DaveGores Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    La Verne, CA
    I would like to see the review Casey got from SS. I have a hard time believing the BLM used the same rediculous level of scrutiny as they did for the MINT. Some of the BLM's criticism seem legitimate, but most of it is petty crap, especially the environmental damage bit. I wouldn't be suprised if they start cracking down on Casey next.
  10. dusted

    dusted New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Location:
    la Verne , Ca
    I'm a DSA construction inspector. From what i've read, What you had, Was what we call a 'Pencil Party" When pushed, even before we set foot onsite, it is pre-determined that you will fail. Documentation of minor deficiencies, can be made to look like you were steering the Exon Valdez.
  11. 450grl

    450grl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Location:
    Chandler, AZ
    I read the report - which quoted portions of the permit requirements that needed to be followed/and were agreed upon, as well. It seems that those requirements were indeed voilated.....now, I guess my question is....have these always been in writing? Are any of these stipulations new? Have these always been agreed upon and upheld in the past, or has the BLM sort of looked the other way in the past and allowed series' to sort of skate by? Just trying to wrap my head around what is happening....since I have just started racing desert this season.
  12. bajaxp

    bajaxp Baja Bobsled Team

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Location:
    Newport Beach, California
    Your point is valid, but I think that the late fees, late docs, and lack of responsiveness by the promoter to concerns, really got under the BLM's skin. Casey is not perfect, but he is really pro-active on addressing the BLM's concerns, getting all of the impact studies done, making extra sure we comply with the people that permit the races. I don't like the thought of getting a penalty for 'roosting the highway' but I did make sure I didn't do this at the SS300...why...because Casey made a huge point about it. And the 25 mph speed limit in the pits and the 25 mph speed limit for the first six mile of the SS300 through desert tortouse land etc. So I do think the BLM might have been extra hard on SNORE, but it might be because of their track record from 2010 and from the paper trail (or lack thereof) leading up to this years' race. And yes we can certainly do a better job of policing ourselves and our fellow racers, but knowing the 'sensitive issues' up front certainly helps. Typically these are brought to my attention on the promoters website, in the Final Information Pack and at the Drivers meeting. Again, I truely hope this works out for SNORE.
  13. WickedGravityVideo

    WickedGravityVideo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    WOW.. . I just read the finding of the BLM and it really blasts the participants big-time! If half of the allegations are true, then I am ashamed of what violations occurred. I have nothing but respect and love for SNORE....I hope there is a logical rebuttal to some of the alleged violations.

    I am disappointed that there were some media running around with out vests.... that bothered the BLM.

    I personally did not see anything particularly dangerous at the race, and I was running all over the place all day, but I am only one set of eyes. I never saw a situation that could end up like the CA200 tragedy, as the BLM report mentions it saw the makings of a repeat.

    This is bad news for racing on public lands.... I feel that private land is the answer. Period.
  14. Mxrider909

    Mxrider909 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Location:
    Riverside,Ca
    The "disturbance" photos appear to me to be very small changes in the course small sections widened by 5-10 feet, is that really whats harming the lands a 10 foot wide track through the massive dessert is now 15 foot wide?!
  15. bonehead1

    bonehead1 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Location:
    hesperia,ca.
    The widening of the course by 5-10 ft is exactly what they are say is harming the land. At the next race in that area, some people will blow corners or try to pass in the vegetation and it will become 5-10 ft wider and so on and so on. If we want to continue to race by the BLM rules we have to realize that the course is the course , and there is no vegetation on the course. If your tire rolls over any plant for any reason that is an infraction. So it seems simple don't blow any corners, don't pass in the weeds keep your car on course and all will be fine

    Attached Files:

  16. Vtr_Racing

    Vtr_Racing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2001
    Location:
    Austin,Texas
    That last pic is just a bunch of BS. Give us a "corridor" to go with. I wasnt at the drivers meeting so I cant say what is what but that last pic seems just fine to pass on either side. Now I also have not read the BLM findings so I wont comment on how I feel yet about a one sided evaluation.

    After looking at those photos there seemed to be alot of course deviations. Not just a couple of missed corners but blatent corner cutting and avoiding whoops/marked course. As much as I do not like the BLM overall they have a good reason to be pissed. We cannot race like that. Cant do it guys just cant do it.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  17. tcrperformance

    tcrperformance Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Location:
    Tucson, Arizona
    Attempting to have a course permitted in AZ for the past 2 + yrs I do have some understanding of what is required and it sure was going a lot smoother until the "accident".

    The NUMBER 1 issue and concern with ANY permit issuing agency is "Public" safety, the participants, pit crew, chase, sweepers, etc. is not their primary concern. Joe public in the wrong place at any time will get any promoter in a heap of trouble. Thats basically a dagger in the heart from a permit standpoint! Next to a jet falling out of the sky, there is no excuse permitted.

    Permits are legal binding contracts, period!

    Race courses are documented by GPS / GIS, way points are documented every 20 to 50 ft of the ENTIRE course in the center, and 10 ft on each establishes the width. THAT is the course! Blowing a turn and taking out a bush, these are all situations that the promoter gets to deal with after everyone has gone home.
    Its easier and far more lucrative to construct a skyscraper than permit a off road race currently, survey after survey and the government generally performs it cheaper than a private business.

    The only way many of us will be able to continue is we have to police our selfs and stick our necks out there, if you see anything that is not right you better stop and try to fix it, or there may not be another race.

    Night racing in the states on public lands is dead!

    The rules and requirements are NOT new, they have not been enforced, its all been there on paper.

    You want to make desert racings future sustainable, GET OUT THERE AND VOLUNTEER, don't say your going to do it, DO IT! One of the biggest gut wrenching issues for a promoter is having enough staff.

    Unless major changes take place, in the next 2 yrs there will only be 1 promoter here in the states for open desert races on public lands.

    Cassy has this permit situation figured out to a science.

    Its certainly one big challenge a head of us all.
    1 person likes this.
  18. alloyz

    alloyz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Location:
    Agoura Hills, CA
    The BLM is looking for a way to stop desert racing. And after desert racing is gone, it will be the weekend recreationalists that will be pegged to go. As for those ridiculous pictures, who is to say all of the "course widening" was from the 2011 Mint race? I remember seeing huge amounts of trail widening through the years in Jawbone, and within a few years of those trails being closed there was NO WAY to even tell a trail once existed. This whole report is the interpretation of the BLM, and they will say and do what they choose to. There is NO unbiased governmental reporting of any offroading in America anymore. Wicked Gravity is correct, there is only one way to save our sport and that is on private lands. If that's possible.
  19. hendersoned

    hendersoned Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    If you want to purchase public land like BLM or Bof Rec lands in Nevada you can file for a recreational purposes agreement lease or purchase. If the use is public (like an off-road race open to all with the $$ and proper equipment) you can lease or purchase for 50% of fair market:), if the Department of the Interior and BLM office approves the sale. So 100,000 acres at $10K is "worth" $1B:eek:, sign 50 year lease for $500M, we need to raise $25M a year to cover the nut, hold 20 events a year with 100 to 250 participants (say 200 to make the math easy) your entry fee is $6250 each, per event to buy the land :(

    Anybody else got an idea??
  20. NIKAL

    NIKAL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego
    Like I mention on the other thread. I would like to see before race pictures. I'm 99.9% sure the BLM does not have any. So how can they ultimately prove that the course was not that wide prior to the race. Also what was the course boundaries, 50 feet from center or 150 from center of trail? Because using the picture above I would have to think both trails would be legal trails to be on. Also there has to be a way to pass. A 10 foot wide trail is not going to work and the BLM knows this. And as far as running over vegetation, many times you are not purposely trying to run it over. But as you can see these courses get very silty. How many times have you wandered off course due to not being able to see? I know it has happened to me. You pop out of the dust and you are off course.

    Many of the tire tracks shown in the BLM pictures are clearly not race vehicle tracks. Most likely they are rovers, retrieval or BLM Ranger tracks. During the race driving next to the course is the only way to get to a location or to a broke down vehicle and the BLM knows this. How was the BLM Rangers getting out to these areas during the race without being on the course? Could they have been running over vegetation? Could those tracks have been out there weeks prior from the general off-roading public? Because it would be legal anytime during the year when a race is not going on to run over a bush or drive in sensitive areas, and the BLM is OK with this.

    In the report it mentions a retrieval vehicle paralleling the course and was told to stay on the course. If that retrieval vehicle would have driven down the course instead of doing what they did and driving next to it, there would have almost for sure been an accident between a race vehicle and retrieval vehicle that could have resulted in death.

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