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2019 SCORE Baja 400 - Live Stream & Updates Thread & Post Race Expert Analysis

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:...It's not professional racing and the racing is way better without qualifying. Pre-running and GPS already gives the teams that take this more seriously a huge advantage over the other hobbyist.
How is it not professional racing?

It seems pre-running and GPS are standard among all of the professional teams. Just because some of the competitors don't put forth the same effort prerunning or utilize the same resources, doesn't degrade the programs of those that do. Nothing wrong with being a "hobbyist" (most of us fit in that category), but the TT class is arguably the premier class in desert racing, so let's treat it accordingly.

Can you imagine if NASCAR or F1 let any John Doe that passes tech start a race? It would be one giant wreck.....literally. Why does SCORE let anyone get behind the wheel in the premier classes without qualifying? Having top drivers getting stuck behind Donkeys all day is not good racing. Let's get real, that one ding dong brake checked RG on the highway. Shameful.
 

Mxrider909

Well-Known Member
How is it not professional racing?

It seems pre-running and GPS are standard among all of the professional teams. Just because some of the competitors don't put forth the same effort prerunning or utilize the same resources, doesn't degrade the programs of those that do. Nothing wrong with being a "hobbyist" (most of us fit in that category), but the TT class is arguably the premier class in desert racing, so let's treat it accordingly.

Can you imagine if NASCAR or F1 let any John Doe that passes tech start a race? It would be one giant wreck.....literally. Why does SCORE let anyone get behind the wheel in the premier classes without qualifying? Having top drivers getting stuck behind Donkeys all day is not good racing. Let's get real, that one ding dong brake checked RG on the highway. Shameful.
I think, that is what makes it not professional racing.. IMO.
 

trailready

Well-Known Member
Just set the start by previous race results (within classes). It addresses every problem including the length of this thread.
Rewards those who show up to every race.
Tempers the advantage of having a "ringer" do the qualifying/starting.
Gives a nice reward to anyone that has a clean race.
And any of the fast guys that suffer a dnf will still rebound within a race or two.
Generally, it will consistently separate the different paces just like qualifying.
 
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JrSyko

Jerry Maguire
I miss the "good old days" where two guys could build a 30K car and put it together in their home garage and go out and win the Baja 1000 overall. As far as spending millions of dollars that is a CHOICE made by that team as no one is forcing them. Without the so called hobbist teams their wouldn't be race for you to race in unless you could talk Red Bull into ponying up and fund the whole thing. In my opinion a professional driver is someone who is PAID by a car owner to drive his or her's vehicle and does it for a living and makes a fair profit even if he happens to also own the team. In off road we maybe have three drivers that fit that mold. Does that mean some so called non professional driver aren't talented I didn't say that. Travis I know you have a financial interest in this conversation but if the tide doesn't rise for all in the sport then we will end up with just a few well sponsored or weathly guys that just want to do it and the sport will die which many others motorsports are experiencing now. This is a grass root sport in many ways so be careful not to piss on the majority of the sport for your own business model. In conclusion I guess we agree to disagree. One last thing we are for qualifying but the vehicle should be impounded right after and you run exactly what you qualified with.
Couple things:

I could talk someone into paying for a race series and have people wanting to do it but the last thing this sport needs in another series. That's why we just added one race to KOH.

You completely ignored the comment which was the bases of my whole argument about SCORE and others loving the fact outside money comes into the sport but then makes it challenging for the people who brings it in to explain why they should continue to invest. My point is either keep encouraging it or don't but you can't run a "hobbyist" race while trying to treat it like a "professional" event. The two words are mutually exclusive.

You are part of the reason why the sport keeps getting expensive, every time you go out and buy the latest and greatest TT you are causing someone else to then go spend more money to beat you. You are forcing that CHOICE because people do this to win races, not go out and have fun. This is why people are going out and getting sponsors, they want/need more money to beat you. Its an arms race and you are part of the problem with the escalating costs whether you realize it or not.

Agreed with your last comment about qualifying and thats why at our race we qualified in the morning and restaged you and started the race.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
to be or not to be pro, ive seen this thread allready, Get Over It.im glad Andy is racing offroad, he could race in anything, so lets get into baja 1k mode:D
 
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MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Just read Andy's FB post. Wow thats hard to do and I am impressed he took responsibility. I am a even bigger fan now. I will take a guy that makes a mistake every once in awhile and admits it than a guy that never makes mistakes.

Mike
 

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely correct. All of us would love to be in their position. Where it get annoying is when some people act like the McMillin kids are the second coming of Jesus Christ. Let’s be honest. They won the lottery when it comes to who your family is. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm not tooting anyone's horn, but the fact of the matter is desert racing doesn't have the same type of low cost driver development that other forms of motorsports have. Inevitably, it's common to have young guys that get their start based on their family's wealth. These days, the McMillins happen to be doing very well, so they are often the subject of our criticism (B.J., Bryce, Tavo, etc. are also in the same situation). Just because they come from big money, it doesn't degrade what the level in which they treat their race program. Any so called "hobbyist" that is racing TT is also very wealthy (whether it's old or new money). My argument is rich "hobbyist" can't just go drive the Daytona 500, but they can race any SCORE or BITD race regardless of skill or experience. It degrades the racing when these guys are holding up the fast drivers (rich dad or poor dad).
 

Keith_SD

Active Member
Class 11 report - Checking in late in the thread just like late in the race. All four of the teams were close, within 5-30 minutes for most of the first half of the race. 1121 Dennis Hollenbeck was leading early on and according to my wife who was watch the tracker for us he was “charging hard”. He unfortunate had transmission problems that required them to stop and change it. They did the swap and were back on the course but were too far back to catch the others. 1111 Solorzano, 1113 Vazques, 1152 Cayetane, would continue to run a tight race, trading off with the lead through the crossover road and then over to the pacific side. 1113 was the first to get to Santo Tomas and never saw the rest of the field again. The Uruapan section was a mess and very challenging for everyone let alone the 11’s. 1113 ended up on its side at RM 344 and was completely blocking the course with no way for other vehicles to get around. The first 3 vehicle to get stopped by the blockage were kind enough to help right the car so the road could be cleared and they continued on, back to Ensenada as the only 11 car to finish under the time limit. Score was right on with allowing the 11’s along with the BC’s and Sportsman’s to take advantage of another small short cut eliminating part of the Mikes Loop and saving at least a few hours. Without it not even 1113 would have finished in time. This was a fanatic race that saw 4 very good teams racing a very challenging course within sight of each other for a large part of it.
 

stephenrjking

Well-Known Member
Andy's Facebook post is very good. The key element:
This is very difficult for me to post this interview. Embarrassed is a word I don’t like using when describing myself. It’s one where I have to accept responsibility for my actions and how my words affected others.

First, I want to apologize for using the word “hobbyist” in my post race interview. Most of us started out or still are “hobbyists” and that comment came off as entitled, narcissistic and salty AF and for that to my fellow racers I am truly, very sorry. Everyone has a right to be out there and I was just in the wrong position at the wrong time at the end of the race, and this time it cost me the win.
Good for him. He does go on to explain his thinking and his frustration, which is fine. It's tough getting a mic in your face when you have just come off of a course where you have just been very disappointed.

And let's face it, the conversation is fun.
 

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
Does anyone in this sport pay their mortgage, water, or energy bills with winnings/sponsor money? That's how I would define a professional.
Good question for BJ, Andy, Bryce, etc. ?

At the same time, is there any other form of "professional" racing where any of the drivers have day jobs? If so, does that disqualify that whole series from being "professional"?

Should we just give up the idea of running a professional race because sorta rich guys can't spend a week prerunning in their trophy truck?
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
How is it not professional racing?

Can you imagine if NASCAR or F1 let any John Doe that passes tech start a race? It would be one giant wreck.....literally. Why does SCORE let anyone get behind the wheel in the premier classes without qualifying? Having top drivers getting stuck behind Donkeys all day is not good racing. Let's get real, that one ding dong brake checked RG on the highway. Shameful.
Tell me in your opinion what makes a Score TT driver a professional? I'm really trying to understand the other side of this topic.

Are you really going to compare Score TT to Nascar or Formula One?

If they are professionals then they should be able to have a stand alone series that is self supporting and not dependant on entry fees.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Tell me in your opinion what makes a Score TT driver a professional? I'm really trying to understand the other side of this topic.

Are you really going to compare Score TT to Nascar or Formula One?

If they are professionals then they should be able to have a stand alone series that is self supporting and not dependant on entry fees.
This is exactly the problem here. My guess is this is not what Andy intended...just an off the cuff comment in the heat of the moment. But when you get in to these kinds of convos for real and start trying to pick apart what things really mean, there are an awful lot of rabbit holes to go down. When you start getting in to trying to make these kinds of distinctions, the inevitable conclusion ends up being a "professional" TT only series on their own. And whether or not that's desirable or sustainable is pretty tricky.
 

coryanderson

Well-Known Member
Good question for BJ, Andy, Bryce, etc. ?

At the same time, is there any other form of "professional" racing where any of the drivers have day jobs? If so, does that disqualify that whole series from being "professional"?

Should we just give up the idea of running a professional race because sorta rich guys can't spend a week prerunning in their trophy truck?
I've never seen the accounting books of any race team, but somehow I seriously doubt Andy (or any other top driver) is able to use winnings/sponsors to pay for a $700,000 truck, let alone the funds to race it 5+ times a year. My point, every team out there is losing money on the course (at least I believe so), thus they are amateurs. If any team is in the black, then I'll accept that team as a professional team. One can be a professional at something and still have a second job to supplement income. Andy's day job isn't supplementing his race income, it's paying for it. No disrespect intended to any racer, I've just always had issues with people labeling off-road drivers as professionals. Take NASCAR, if a team owner has a driver who is sucking, they will fire him and hire someone who can drive faster. They are not hiring someone who is able to pay the most (at least usually).
 

Jimmy8

Well-Known Member
All I will say is that I recently had a very good conversation with a very large corporation on a partnership. To quote them:

"Trophy Truck is a horrible business proposition. The costs to run one for a season are astronomical and these independently wealthy teams will race one way or another and don't "need" sponsorship. We talked to one Trophy Truck team who said their program costs them 1.5 million per year to run, and they said for the logo we wanted, the team considered it 1/3 of the truck's livery, would cost this company $500,000 or 1/3rd of their annual costs. The company said there is absolutely no way to get that ROI in desert racing, and the independently wealthy have created a massive problem for any sort of sponsor wanting to get involved because they will just race anyway without sponsorship."

You know what 500k per year will get you with a Supercross team? A lot more than a Trophy Truck. The trophy truck regression is coming. It's just priced way too many people out of the game and it can't sustain where it's at. I'm making a living racing UTV's and quite a few others are as well. It's a weird world we live in.
 

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
Tell me in your opinion what makes a Score TT driver a professional? I'm really trying to understand the other side of this topic.

Are you really going to compare Score TT to Nascar or Formula One?

If they are professionals then they should be able to have a stand alone series that is self supporting and not dependant on entry fees.
How much money does a team have to generate in sponsorship dollars before you consider it a "professional" organization? Using other sports as an example, once you accept sponsorship dollars or a salary, you have lost your amateur status and are now a professional.

Yes. TT is supposed to be the premier division of off road racing, so why don't we compare it to the other premier series?

You think SCORE or BITD is supported by entry fees? I have a strong feeling that these organizations rely on outside funding to keep the lights on.
 

5280Ranger

Well-Known Member
You know what 500k per year will get you with a Supercross team? A lot more than a Trophy Truck. The trophy truck regression is coming. It's just priced way too many people out of the game and it can't sustain where it's at. I'm making a living racing UTV's and quite a few others are as well. It's a weird world we live in.
In 2017, about 470,000 new motorcycles were sold to customers in the United States.

And this:

Live attendance climbed 3 percent from the previous season, including a record-setting 60,000 at Atlanta's Mercedes-Benz Stadium. Television viewership was up 6 percent from 2017, including a 27 percent bump in the coveted males-between-18-and-34 demographic, according to Feld Entertainment. The SLC race in April had 836,000 viewers, most for a Supercross race on Fox Sports.


The only reason desert racing is doing as well as it is, is because of the utv market. Robby is selling utvs, not TTs. This is a hobbyist sport. Always will be. I can see the demise of desert racing as we know it in my lifetime. The "environmentalist" are seeing to that.
 
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