2019: Why are TT's faster than Class 1 buggies?

joshmx88

Well-Known Member
Not really, with the higher weigh percentage in front and a better unsprung weight ratio, they tend to go where you point them instead of bouncing off ****.
Yes, what you are saying is true and makes sense. However what you are saying is much different than saying they are faster just because they weigh more, like that other idiot was talking about.
 

J BomBer

Well-Known Member
If you got the balls and the luck, James dean wheels his car like no other, problem is it keeps having problems, is it related to over driving? Could be, or luck? Could be.
 

BajaFand

Well-Known Member
I was once told by one extremely successful driver that a class 1 "should" smoke a TT but he gets paid to drive a TT.
I think if that were true then Andy, Luke, and Dan would still be in their buggies. Also with the mixed starting order that BITD uses and admittedly smoother courses you’d think it would happen there more often but it doesn’t.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
If you put Rob Mac in a buggy, he would win. Robby Gordon same thing. Several big name TT drivers would win in a buggy. Fact is, TTs are where the marketing comes into play. Fast guys will win in whatever they are driving, but the market also helps them decide what they are driving. BITD courses favor trucks, of any class, period.
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
TTs are faster because they weigh more, stick to the ground, have more travel, and put more power to the ground because the tires are on the ground. This is also why you see 6100 trucks with 430hp finishing where they are in the field. Also another reason why you see the heavier 6100 trucks beating the lighter ones. Power to the ground is like a boat having its prop in the water. If you can get all the power hooked up you are moving forward and not wasting it to wheel spin.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
Force (F) = mass (m) * acceleration (a)

F = m * a

How does increasing mass here help with acceleration?


If you claim it increases traction, you would not be wrong.
A truck that weighs twice as much will have twice the traction.
Twice the traction means you can push on the ground twice as hard.
Good.
You're going to NEED to push twice as hard on the truck that weighs twice as much to get the SAME acceleration as the original truck.

So no advantage, and you still have the disadvantage when you want to go and make a turn.

One of the few ways to INCREASE traction without increasing mass, is to increase DOWNFORCE through aero.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
But, once all that mass is moving, Keeping it moving is where a hooked up rotating tire is the key, here, let me do some math, $+$=!ps turns in off road are negated by how long the straights are, except a short qualifing course, then corner exit is more crucial to fast laps, slow in , fast out, looks slower, but is quicker, thats what Mark Martin told me....
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
Force (F) = mass (m) * acceleration (a)

F = m * a

How does increasing mass here help with acceleration?


If you claim it increases traction, you would not be wrong.
A truck that weighs twice as much will have twice the traction.
Twice the traction means you can push on the ground twice as hard.
Good.
You're going to NEED to push twice as hard on the truck that weighs twice as much to get the SAME acceleration as the original truck.

So no advantage, and you still have the disadvantage when you want to go and make a turn.

One of the few ways to INCREASE traction without increasing mass, is to increase DOWNFORCE through aero.
Not to mention, the heavier the vehicle the greater chance there is for part failure. TT teams have been spending insane amounts of money to reduce weight.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
motorsport is All about vehicle control, every lap Senna made the least errors on average, there is No such thing as a perfect lap, I believe ( b y videos ) tt are faster because they offer the most driver - vehicle control - feedback at speed, yes, when i was doing a Wopping 80- 90 mph at parker, the steering wheel was just as busy down the staights as in a sweeping corner, now that awd tt is becoming a bullet proof sprint class, buggys are done.* Update*, why i Love desert offroad, $$ can come in and build Whatever they want and spank Every one, it just getting a little harder w modern technology
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
what i mean is look at 60's era indycars, each year BaM, new ground breaking car,Ruffus's jet car ect, after awhile, everyone has the same equipment, now its cookie cutter tech, cls car rules suck, thats what seperates desert racing& Everyone else
 

CodyParkhouse

Well-Known Member
It comes down to a few basic things,
the extra travel a truck has (50% more) is huge for keeping the power going to the ground
there are more and if everyone is pushing 100% there is more chance of a few finishing, esp with the reliability that has been gained
we are still working on our new car (but now 4wd is changing things) 😉😉
 
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jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Everyone (including me) says that the weight of the trucks help keep the vehicle straight in the really big bumps, which they do for sure. I did a whole calculation and explanation of power to weight ratios and then deleted it because I don't want to open up that can of worms LOL.
open it,,, doooo it....( like an arrow, cant shoot one backwards, if the rear has to follow the fronts kinetic momentum, has no choice but to stay in line, now, a buggy?, that polarmoment is behind you, trying to overtake the lighter end of things, thats why all your fast dudes seem to come from buggies, u have to stay up on the wheel start to finish)
 

wayne matlock

Well-Known Member
Weight has a completely different effect on pavement then dirt. It is much more noticeable on a dirt bike or an ATV. When on the dirt a heavier rider will have a faster acceleration and top speed then a lighter guy riding the same bike. Put them on the pavement and it's a much different result. During acceleration the heavier rider puts more weight on the rear tire making more traction. And when it comes to top speed, both riders are trying to punch ruffly the same size hole through the air. With the wind resistance being about the same on each rider the one that makes more traction will have the higher speed.

Same reason that they add weight to land speed cars.
 

isdtbower

Well-Known Member
Seems like if weight was the answer the buggies could have easily added that. I think that discussion is TT vs TT vs HP to carry it. (Live axle)

A IRS G-out hurts up the back! And the more you raise the center to gain g-out clearance you loose travel and hurts droop where the TT's are still "hooked up." (UTV racers hate 2 track roads with center berms) Class 1 travel seems mid to high 20's and TT's mid to high 30's. (?)

A rear live axle hit is basically just noise and possible damage, but generally not to the driver.

Portals on buggies will probably be a next overall step as the TT's improve the reliability and designs. With those, that probably opens up 40"+ tires that don't kill transaxles, etc.

Others have alluded to the scamper courses changing to whooped out challenges. Is a great driver one who can also take the beating?

Is Parkhouse parking the bitchen buggy for a 4WD TT? To me, (as building a IRS) Jimco made some advancements in geometry...in the class... but the G-out problem remains. Are they now looking to improve the odds for an overall?
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
What mid-engine class 1's are currently racing? I feel that a mid-engine configured class 1 will outperform a similar rear-engined class 1.

Weight has a completely different effect on pavement then dirt.
Physics applies the same. Conditions may have changed but physics still applies. The biggest difference between dirt and pavement is friction coefficient. This impacts traction. Of course, there is less traction in dirt compared to pavement. This is because dirt-rubber have a lower friction coefficient than pavement-rubber.

It is much more noticeable on a dirt bike or an ATV. When on the dirt a heavier rider will have a faster acceleration and top speed then a lighter guy riding the same bike. Put them on the pavement and it's a much different result. During acceleration the heavier rider puts more weight on the rear tire making more traction.
I have difficulty believing a heavier rider will accelerate faster.
Lets get a scenario going. Supercross track with a landrush start.
Rider 1 weighs 150lbs.
Rider 2 weighs 200lbs.
Both bikes weigh 250lbs.
They race 10 times and tie each time.
Rider 1 wants to win on the 11th race. Should he strap a 50lb backpack on?

And when it comes to top speed, both riders are trying to punch ruffly the same size hole through the air. With the wind resistance being about the same on each rider the one that makes more traction will have the higher speed.
I have difficulty believing a heavier rider will have a higher top speed simply because he has more traction. When has a bike's top speed been limited by tire-spin? I hardly believe reducing tire spin at high speed through increasing mass is the best method. There are far more opportunities on a truck/buggy to integrate aero to achieve that increased traction at higher speeds. And the cool thing about aero, is at lower speeds, the mass is not there.

Same reason that they add weight to land speed cars.
Land speed cars are designed to go in a straight line. a VERY straight line. Hardly the same goals for vehicle design.
 
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Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
It is not so much about acceleration as stopping and starting. Heavier vehicles STOP better in the dirt, which allows deeper corner speed and less time lost when slowing for obstacles that require slower speeds. Larger tires hook up better for acceleration, and few of the current class 1 cars are running 40s, but they are moving that way. Last- drive train in TTs has better development for 800+hp than IRS derived transmissions, so there is that as well. Many years ago, one of the great riders and drivers with many overall wins on bikes and buggies got a truck ride and suddenly, he said he could stop in the dirt. Changed his mind about buggies. I don't think he ever went back. Makes sense when you think about it. Dragsters with good brakes will be fastest.
 
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