2021 Mint 400 starting order

cwarren

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Be careful what you ask for.
What would be different from running through most of the spec trucks in Mexico? If someone faster is on my tail I don't have a problem letting them around, but if I out qualify them I want to start in front of whatever vehicle that is.
 

MTPyle

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CWarren,

First off you are not the typical C10. But Class 10 can often qualify well but are not as fast as spec trucks on the course. Qualifying is usually tight and technical and the C10 has the advantage. But in the open desert the 6100 has the advantage. Just look at average times from previous races. 6100 on average is faster than C10. Not saying there are not C10's that can beat some 6100's.

Edit- Look at the C10 times compared to 6100 at the B1K right now. lead 6100 RM193 in 3:53 and lead C10 is at RM193 at 4:13. 20 min slower to RM193. thats a big difference. And the average is worse for 10 compared to 6100.

Mike
 
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cwarren

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Be careful what you ask for.
By the way Steve, I'm not saying the spec trucks are slower as a class. Speaking of individual trucks. Every class has cars that don't run the pace of the front runners and unfortunately it seems the class as a whole can often be started based off of the slower speeds. In 2018 Score said the classes would start according to the which class beat which. We physically passed every Spec truck at San Felipe which of course beat them on time. Instead of letting class 10 start in front of the Specs, they said the class as a whole averaged slightly slower and they started them in front of us at the 500.
 

cwarren

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CWarren,

First off you are not the typical C10. But Class 10 can often qualify well but are not as fast as spec trucks on the course. Qualifying is usually tight and technical and the C10 has the advantage. But in the open desert the 6100 has the advantage. Just look at average times from previous races. 6100 on average is faster than C10. Not saying there are not C10's that can beat some 6100's.

Mike
I don't disagree with that, but average times is a strange thing to calculate in races that you could have cars with hours of downtime. Thats why I am in favor of qualifying for starting positions regardless of class. Which would solve some problems of cars leading there class being held by slower vehicles from another. It wouldn't be perfect but I don't think you can cite safety concerns and then look at the leaderboard map of the 1000 right now and say that the classes aren't already mixed together.
 

MTPyle

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For me its about being scared to touch a class 10, it makes it harder to get around them without causing issues for them. Qualifying is not a perfect way to gauge race speed. Plenty of smaller cars qualify well and then get in the way on race day.

We started day 2 of the Legacy race behind UTV's. it was our fault for being there from a problem on day 1. But it made it really hard to get around those guys. But maybe we are too sensitive. Just need to move guys out of the way and if we hit a C10 guy too hard and break their engine then oh well they can fight the fight about where to get started. I put way too much effort in protection the C10 guys. Haha

Not worried about the Mint course. We can pass C10 there if we need to. Lots of lines that we can do 20mph faster and get by.

Mike
 

10 shot

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It's way harder to pass a slower back marker spec truck with a class 10 than a spec truck that must of had a problem getting back around a class 10. The slow spec trucks just Sunday drive and could care less how hard we hit them then full gas down the straight. It's no different for class 10 with slow spec trucks other than the amount of dust they put up and there harder to pass. The only way I can pass them is full slam when there turning. That gets there attention.
 

MTPyle

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At the Baja 1000 there was a spec truck that destroyed two class 10 buggies from behind. Don’t google that sentence. Haha

The truck got a 1hr penalty from SCORE. The class 10 I saw the pics of was totally smashed and it ended their race. Looks bad.

Was it intentional or just hard to gauge how hard you are going to hit someone?

My point all along is light rear engine buggies should not be racing and for sure not starting with full size trucks.

It’s possible that the truck that did the damage did not mean to hit them that hard. You have to come in with momentum and the physics will not end well for the light buggy.

In this case the spec truck obviously had a problem to get behind the class 10. Then they had to push hard to make time up. It’s way harder than everyone thinks to lightly nerf a class 10. In this case it sounds like there was not attempt to use the push to pass. Which makes it even worse.

That being said we have forgot to use push to pass before as you are 100% focused when in the dust and not always thinking about the Stella.

I feel horrible for the class 10 that got taken out. That’s my worst fear and why my boys and I will never get too close to a class 10. Which again is why it’s not fair to mix light buggies with full size trucks.

Mike
 

fastfelix

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At the Baja 1000 there was a spec truck that destroyed two class 10 buggies from behind. Don’t google that sentence. Haha

The truck got a 1hr penalty from SCORE. The class 10 I saw the pics of was totally smashed and it ended their race. Looks bad.

Was it intentional or just hard to gauge how hard you are going to hit someone?

My point all along is light rear engine buggies should not be racing and for sure not starting with full size trucks.

It’s possible that the truck that did the damage did not mean to hit them that hard. You have to come in with momentum and the physics will not end well for the light buggy.

In this case the spec truck obviously had a problem to get behind the class 10. Then they had to push hard to make time up. It’s way harder than everyone thinks to lightly nerf a class 10. In this case it sounds like there was not attempt to use the push to pass. Which makes it even worse.

That being said we have forgot to use push to pass before as you are 100% focused when in the dust and not always thinking about the Stella.

I feel horrible for the class 10 that got taken out. That’s my worst fear and why my boys and I will never get too close to a class 10. Which again is why it’s not fair to mix light buggies with full size trucks.

Mike
Mike so imagine a 10 car racing with 11 cars. Atleast you guys are similar speeds
 

10 shot

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At the Baja 1000 there was a spec truck that destroyed two class 10 buggies from behind. Don’t google that sentence. Haha

The truck got a 1hr penalty from SCORE. The class 10 I saw the pics of was totally smashed and it ended their race. Looks bad.

Was it intentional or just hard to gauge how hard you are going to hit someone?

My point all along is light rear engine buggies should not be racing and for sure not starting with full size trucks.

It’s possible that the truck that did the damage did not mean to hit them that hard. You have to come in with momentum and the physics will not end well for the light buggy.

In this case the spec truck obviously had a problem to get behind the class 10. Then they had to push hard to make time up. It’s way harder than everyone thinks to lightly nerf a class 10. In this case it sounds like there was not attempt to use the push to pass. Which makes it even worse.

That being said we have forgot to use push to pass before as you are 100% focused when in the dust and not always thinking about the Stella.

I feel horrible for the class 10 that got taken out. That’s my worst fear and why my boys and I will never get too close to a class 10. Which again is why it’s not fair to mix light buggies with full size trucks.

Mike
That could be a tt or class 1 car that was in a pit for awhile. There is no way to keep trucks and buggies out of the way of each other in a point to point race unless you break and your made to leave the course. Unfortunately if you break and you start getting passed by slower classes it's now your responsibility to pass safe because that may be the leaders of that class and there having there own battles. Basically why risk your truck and another class car to get 10th place anyway. There is no perfect solution.
 

Big Hock

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Will we be able to follow any of this on fishgistics? It’s always the best place to follow a race that you can’t watch.
 

MTPyle

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That could be a tt or class 1 car that was in a pit for awhile. There is no way to keep trucks and buggies out of the way of each other in a point to point race unless you break and your made to leave the course. Unfortunately if you break and you start getting passed by slower classes it's now your responsibility to pass safe because that may be the leaders of that class and there having there own battles. Basically why risk your truck and another class car to get 10th place anyway. There is no perfect solution.

Yeah I get that at the B1K it was done right and the only way to do it.

I am talking about two races this year that we started a race behind light buggies and UTV’s. It took us out of the race on day 2 as we would not risk hitting them.

Light buggies should always start behind full size trucks. Regardless of qualifying order.

They need to be re racked based on class on day two of races. I keep saying that and class 10 car guys are saying they should race with us. Clearly it didn’t end well for the two class 10 racers in Baja that got stuck in front of a spec truck. So why start them that way. Everyone can blame the spec trucks but it’s not that simple. I really doubt this Baja spec truck meant to do that much damage.

The Mint400 is doing is correctly and it’s only a one day race.

Mike
 

Farkus

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Will we be able to follow any of this on fishgistics? It’s always the best place to follow a race that you can’t watch.
No!

 

T.martin

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This debate between Spec and Class 10 will continue. How hard is it to add a sacrificial bumper to the back of a class 10? Or is it the height difference that is the problem?
 

10 shot

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This debate between Spec and Class 10 will continue. How hard is it to add a sacrificial bumper to the back of a class 10? Or is it the height difference that is the problem?
It's a weight difference. And for class 10 to pass a spec truck its almost impossible as the rear of the truck is up and down 30 inches. The slow spec trucks are slowing down the fast 10 cars. Its always been a problem that is why they started mixing them in with 6100 based on qualifying times. There is no great solution because top 10 cars are faster than slower spec trucks. 10 cars are faster in the tight and slower in the big stuff. There very close in overall times . To me stick 6100 with the tt class mix them together as one class just like they did class 1. A tt can slam a 6100 as they are the same truck basically just more hp but back marker tt guys are slower than a fast spec. Keep trucks with trucks.
 

dan200

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It's the dang ol ten cars that are the problem.

too heavy to hit a UTV.
Not big enough to nerf a TT or Spec.
Fast enough to run with specs, 7200, and the fast golf carts and a few dudes can catch the ones and some TTs on a good day.
Easily smashed if a big truck catches them.

Personally I like the idea of keeping the UTV separate. And I feel like the 10's wanna run with the big guys but just like a UTV thats up in the mix with heavy vehicles- they gotta watch their 6 or they're getting punted.

Everyone fights dust. it is the great equalizer.

Maybe I am missing something. I don't race. I just carry tires around for rich people.
 
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10 shot

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It's the dang ol ten cars that are the problem.

too heavy to hit a UTV.
Not big enough to nerf a TT or Spec.
Fast enough to run with specs, 7200, and the fast golf carts.
Easily smashed of a big truck catches them.

Personally I like the idea of keeping the UTV separate. And I feel like the 10's wanna run with the big guys but just like a UTV thats up in the mix with heavy vehicles- they gotta watch their 6 or they're getting punted.

Everyone fights dust. it is the great equalizer.

Maybe I am missing something. I don't race. I just carry tires around for rich people.
Exactly...... we all want dust free racing with nobody in front of us to deal with. I think that's called rally racing. Desert racing you deal with all the elements dust, silt , slower vehicles, rocks and everything imaginable! That's desert racing! Once in awhile nature will give us the perfect sprinkle the day before the race and we get a dust free rally but that has only happened to me 4 times in 12 years........lol.
 

MTPyle

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No way to solve the problem and I agree there are many cases where a 10 car is held up by a spec truck.

The one thing that’s crazy is the huge gap between the fastest and slowest of any class. No good way to manage that.

I feel like once ion the race course it just has to work itself out. But again no reason to start them mixed up and cause problems for certain. It just puts a wall between some of the spec trucks and allows the faster guys to just check out.

We were the slowest of the spec trucks when we first started. But we moved over and didn’t get in others way. It’s really not hard to know who is behind you, especially when you are slow. Maybe I am more sensitive than most. But at every corner I am looking back to see if anyone is behind me. Probably not the best way to race but I can’t help it. Haha

Mike
 

dan200

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at every corner I am looking back to see if anyone is behind me. Probably not the best way to race but I can’t help it. Haha

Mike
Put me in the truck.

I'll just be over to the right all day, putting along pretending I am racing (with my hazard lights on) waving at everyone to pass me while I am crapping my pants and smiling. LOL
 

JerryB

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I go back and forth on this in my head, pros and cons to both starting options. At Baja Nevada, we started day 2 with some TT/Specs and 1's who had problems on the first day, directly in front of us and behind us, found myself literally in the middle of a pack of them at the starting line. I was pretty stressed as we were in UTV. Thankfully it actually worked out for me as the truck in front disappeared into the distance and the silt on the course, in most places, was so bad no one could get anywhere close to me to nerf or attempt a pass. With that said, I am one who will gladly move over for a truck or any other faster class, I'm not racing you anyhow, not worth risking my car. I was also getting splits at every pit letting me know how far back the next car was and what it was, truck vs another UTV. And dust aside, we maintained a 5-8 minute gap to anyone coming up behind us.

Until we ultimately had a clutch fail and were cruising into a pit a little off the pace and were nerfed by a spec truck (no push to pass) which almost sent me into a barrel roll. I won't say who it was they know who they are. (no it wasn't Mike)

Desert racing is a unique animal. It's difficult when you have so many classes with varying vehicle weight, HP, speed, etc. on the same course at the same time. Throw in the dust factor, often single line course with little to nowhere to pass safely and ego's, it quickly becomes an issue. There's no other racing which has the same problems and decision making required facing the driver. I am for starting with your class, not mixing them up but we all know that the running order only lasts a few miles before you start blowing through slower cars, people having issues early on, stopping to change a flat, it all goes out the window.
 
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