5-1600 Question.

[Amxlocal]

Can class 5/1600 use a hydraulic clutch? I don't see any clarification in the rule book.

I called SCORE, SNORE, and BITD a few times. All gave me a Yes/No/Maybe depending on who answered the phone.

I talked to a few other builders and they said YES, but I am skeptical because I don't recall seeing this on any other cars.

I'm only considering it as a easy way to get the clutch cable around the transmission mount. Also, the end of the tunnel has torsion adjusters where the cable would normally go.

Can someone provide some good information on this subject? (cite your source)

Thanks.

 

[harleys dad]

No you cannot use hydrolic clutch, stock pedals must be used but can replace the throttle pedal with a wheel. I have raced 51600 since 1977 and as soon as last weekend. All the cable mounting is easy, even if I could use the hydrolic clutch I wouldnt. Stock works great. Remember, if the rules do not say anything at all about something it has to be factory stock, the rule book tells you what you can do anything not said has to be stock. That is the way the rules are for 51600, anyone tells you different they are wrong. I hear it so many times it doesnt say you cant, yes it does by not saying you can!!

 

[MALABANAN]

No you cannot use hydrolic clutch, stock pedals must be used but can replace the throttle pedal with a wheel. I have raced 51600 since 1977 and as soon as last weekend. All the cable mounting is easy, even if I could use the hydrolic clutch I wouldnt. Stock works great. Remember, if the rules do not say anything at all about something it has to be factory stock, the rule book tells you what you can do anything not said has to be stock. That is the way the rules are for 51600, anyone tells you different they are wrong. I hear it so many times it doesnt say you cant, yes it does by not saying you can!!

KING Dave said it! I believe it! And that's final!


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[Deenracing]

More of a question than anything else…… thought you could as long as it was used with the stock pedals. I remember seeing hydraulic cylinders on the clutch. But that was like 10 years ago, things change, and it doesn't mean it was legal.

Also did they ever open up the brake master cylinders? So many better after market ones then the stock ones. In my mind it's more of a safety issue than a "stock appearance" thing.

We cut an access hole on the passenger side of the tunnel to get to the cable with out having to pull out the pedals to replace it. Piano hinge and quick release bolt on the cover. Worked great.

Thanks.


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[NIKAL]

No you cannot use hydrolic clutch, stock pedals must be used but can replace the throttle pedal with a wheel. I have raced 51600 since 1977 and as soon as last weekend. All the cable mounting is easy, even if I could use the hydrolic clutch I wouldnt. Stock works great. Remember, if the rules do not say anything at all about something it has to be factory stock, the rule book tells you what you can do anything not said has to be stock. That is the way the rules are for 51600, anyone tells you different they are wrong. I hear it so many times it doesnt say you cant, yes it does by not saying you can!!

King Dave, You are incorrect! You can use a Hydraulic cluch system, as long as you use the factory pedals and do not cut any holes in the front body / firewall like how the VW brake master cylinder is done.

How do I know this? Because I was the first back in 2002 to do this. I asked Bill Savage and at first he said No. Then HE called me back, gave me peramiters to build around and said make me a drawing and let me take a look at it. Well two drawings later he approved my 5/1600 Hydraulic clutch design, and signed off on it. His last words were "If your so damn queer for a hydraulic clutch in a 5/1600 to go through all of this then go ahead!"

So we built it and agian i took the finished build to his shop to show him. He was cool with it, and we still have and carry the signed Bill Savage Docs showing that the clutch is legal per Bill Savage. Every other place we have raced has never had an issue with it and said "We follow Scores rules, so if Bill said it was OK and you have proof, then your legal with us."

 

[Amxlocal]

thought you could as long as it was used with the stock pedals. I remember seeing hydraulic cylinders on the clutch

Yes, In fact, I was told these exact words by one of the BITD officials that I spoke with. His words were that the Pedals must remain stock, but in the same sentence told me that it would be OK because a hydraulic clutch does not give a competitive advantage. Is adding a 4th pedal against any rule AND does that mean the clutch cable must remain stock as well? Currently I am using a "buggy" cable that's cut to size because the stock clutch cable is not long enough to reach the Bus Transmission.

 

[harleys dad]

read the rule book, it does not say you can as usual with Bill Savage to this day. Nowhere is hydrolic clutch mentioned which means it does not belong there.. 51600 may have a lot of open parts these days that is why the class struggles to exist but even if Bill savage gave you such a paper it does not mean anything anywhere else as none of the rule books allow it/ besides maybe Score but it says it nowhere and he does not exist in score so it has as much meaning these days as toilet paper being the rule books only allow a roller pedal in place of the stock throttle pedal. With no other wording the argument falls flat on its face. Consider how many rule books have come and gone with the same wording makes your hydro clutch illegal to me, many chances to change the wording and never did. Just because people put it on doesnt mean its right with the rules, unless rules mean nothing to anyone. The rule book wording is all we have to go on

 

[NIKAL]

read the rule book, it does not say you can as usual with Bill Savage to this day. Nowhere is hydrolic clutch mentioned which means it does not belong there.. 51600 may have a lot of open parts these days that is why the class struggles to exist but even if Bill savage gave you such a paper it does not mean anything anywhere else as none of the rule books allow it/ besides maybe Score but it says it nowhere and he does not exist in score so it has as much meaning these days as toilet paper being the rule books only allow a roller pedal in place of the stock throttle pedal. With no other wording the argument falls flat on its face. Consider how many rule books have come and gone with the same wording makes your hydro clutch illegal to me, many chances to change the wording and never did. Just because people put it on doesnt mean its right with the rules, unless rules mean nothing to anyone. The rule book wording is all we have to go on

So basically how Rulo disregards the rules and moves the inner rear trailing arm pivots, like you would on a 1600 car. Or how they cut more then the 1 inch off the front pan for rack and power steering componites? To me those are rule issues that get overlooked and are clearly stated in the rule book. Also as Deen said a few years back a few others were adding Hydro clutches, but they were mounting them threw the front firewall and nobody was having issues with it. It made our design way over engineered.

And yes the rule book never stated the a hydro clutch was legal, as Bill said if someone wants to do it, come see me. We assumed years later Bill got lax and was allowing them to go through the firewall. We have not raced the car since Bill has been gone from Score, but a couple of years ago when we were looking to pull the car out and run the 1000, I called Score and spoke with Tech about re- inspecting the cage as it had been several years and I brought up the clutch. They said if I could show documented proof that Bill signed off on it and we raced it that way, then they did not see an issue with it. Heck even Art knew about the hydro clutch as he too was Score & at one time Snore & MDR tech.

 

[harleys dad]

So basically how Rulo disregards the rules and moves the inner rear trailing arm pivots, like you would on a 1600 car. Or how they cut more then the 1 inch off the front pan for rack and power steering componites? To me those are rule issues that get overlooked and are clearly stated in the rule book. Also as Deen said a few years back a few others were adding Hydro clutches, but they were mounting them threw the front firewall and nobody was having issues with it. It made our design way over engineered.

And yes the rule book never stated the a hydro clutch was legal, as Bill said if someone wants to do it, come see me. We assumed years later Bill got lax and was allowing them to go through the firewall. We have not raced the car since Bill has been gone from Score, but a couple of years ago when we were looking to pull the car out and run the 1000, I called Score and spoke with Tech about re- inspecting the cage as it had been several years and I brought up the clutch. They said if I could show documented proof that Bill signed off on it and we raced it that way, then they did not see an issue with it. Heck even Art knew about the hydro clutch as he too was Score & at one time Snore & MDR tech.

Snore gets the largest 51600 entries state side and the rules state what I posted. all this has destroyed the class as so many are sick of crap just like you said and the crap Savage did to ruin the class to pad his wallet. At least Snore has stuck to their rule book as written but where does all this crap stop?? There are all kinds of Baja bugs with this or that not with in the rules to the point the class hardly exists. As I said maybe Score will let you get away with your clutch, in my opinion it should not be allowed because the rules have ALWAYS been written forbidding it including today. I have done everything in my power to build my car to the rules but why should I?? You didnt, it should never have even been a thought the way the rules read so you are as guilty as you claim Rulo is. The rules didnt apply to you It was clear as day in Scores rules in 2002 Snores rules also that the only mod is the roller pedal. Hydro clutches suck, lost 1 too many slaves for me in 1600 to ever consider putting something like that on my baja. Just inviting trouble. That is Bill Savage for you, he knew it was wrong and let you do it anyway. and with the books still reading the same today its not right for you to have that. But looks to me you did as you wanted like you accuse others of doing. Again seams rules dont mean anything

 

[NIKAL]

I did not just do what I wanted. I went to the appropriate people first and asked. Then I got written documentation stating what I did was legal. Both MDR & Snore at the time we wanted to race in there series, we asked and showed their tech, and both times were told if you have Score approval and have been racing it, then we are OK with it. So once again we were legal. At that time Art was involved in all 3 of thise series, so maybe that is partly why they were OK with Savages ruling? But it was not Art who we went to when asking the other series. Now as I have said we have not pulled the car out in several years, and when or if we do, we will have to speak the the appropriate people to see where we stand. But as of a few years ago Score was still fine with it, pending my documentation.

The difference between what we did and several others who do race Score or Snore. We did not do a modification first and later ask for permission or alter enough cars that it makes the series or tech overlook it as there are too many cars already altered. This was the case when I asked about the rear rotated pivots at the Snore Mint 400. When I put the Orginal Best of the Best 5/1600 Shootout race on, this was the hot topic and I got several calls from people concerned about the rotated pivots. For that One race I spoke to MDR and Art and said lets allow the cars with rotated pivots to race as many were calling and asking. Several had paid a shop to do the conversions as they were led to believe is was legal, or several others had not even known it was done to their cars until some others pointed it out. So a last minute ruling was made for that race.

So if and when the day comes where we are told we can't run it, and we do. Then we will be guilty like the others who make illegal modifications.

 

[Deenracing]

Straight out of the rule book.


"This class is a stock production class and all components must remain stock except for those modifications allowed herein."

I read this like Dave says "if it doesn't say it can't do it". Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't this verbiage get changed not too long ago? Didn't it say "you could do it unless it says you can't"? If that was the case then anyone running a hydraulic clutch would be legal.

"SCR37 Drivers CompartmentRear seat, upholstered panels, headliners, and carpet may be removed.Removal of dash and firewall is prohibited. Dash may be covered with aluminum to install gauges. Pedals must remain in stock fore and aft location. May use roller pedal. May use any throttle cable and VW stock housing. Air cleaner hose may pierce firewall for such things as oil lines, etc"

"May convert existing swing axle suspension to IRS by welding in any manufacturers pivot boxes to torsion housing in stock location while maintaining stock geometry."

So my question is with this…… if you can put pivots on a swing axle car how do you know if you put them in the "stock" location? Isn't arcing from the torsion housing running in "stock" geometry? Just asking.

Thanks


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[WALSHMOTORSPORTS]

I got one for you. so I go down to see Savage to get my 5/1600 for the 2007 1000. The reason they did not tech my car was I had cut out the stock dash behind steering wheel for guages. Well the steering wheel blocked them so we moved the guages to the center of the aluminum dash instead.
Savage tells me we cut to much out of the stock dash......sorry. Really? So we took it with a grain of salt if you will and went to a buddies house had some old bugs and cut out the stock speedo/speaker grill area and tacked it back in place. Oh and around one tube through the body he said I needed to close up the hole a little.......All this thinking they were super strict on the rules. Now when I went to contengency I looked under the hoods of about other 5/1600's. Not all of them, but at least 3 of them had the stock dash cut out.......gone.And that was the very least of the questionable rule bending I seen.
Dave I do see your point as well. I never had a problem with using a heavy duty throttle cable.

 

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

The main reason the class is dead - rule BS.

 

[Bro_Gill]

As for the pivot rule, it was hashed out back in the 1980s when Bunderson was moving the pivot into the torsion housing while not changing the center line to stub axle length. Savage found out and started measuring rear arms with a jig he made that looked for this stuff. Stock is stock. As for changes, I have proposed one to Art for consideration, and some of you probably will hate it, but Art seems to think it is possible- No more stock firewalls or package tray in 5-1600. Get rid of them. Makes changing rolled bodies easier. lets cars maintain a more professional appearance and frees up prep time and build time by not having to deal with that part of the body. I know, some folks will say the class has always had them, but why? Class 5 doesn't even use VW bodies anymore, they use fiberglass funny bodies, so why not have 5-1600 be the VW class it should be without mashed up roofs, primer halfway through a season, etc...? Spend the time on other stuff, not finding VW roofs to replace. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there since I proposed it to him last week and he was open to the change. Lets hear it.

 

[Deenracing]

As for the pivot rule, it was hashed out back in the 1980s when Bunderson was moving the pivot into the torsion housing while not changing the center line to stub axle length. Savage found out and started measuring rear arms with a jig he made that looked for this stuff. Stock is stock. [\QUOTE]





For clarification, they were pushing the pivot into the torsion housing minimizing the camber change? That would make sense about stock location but what about rotating? Rotating changes the tire camber at desired location. Couldn't you do the same with building the arms to have desired camber and still be in the rules? Asking cause I don't know. So if that's the case what's the difference? If the pivot is in the same location just rotated a few degrees how is that different than fixing the camber in the arm?

Thanks

 

[harleys dad]

just something else to push 51600 over the edge, Pivots in stock location is easy and if they are not dead nuts who cares anymore? I dont, Rules dont mean anything and if you think your going to get beat by a rolled pivot just stay home. It does not get checked it does not matter as it is so easy to get around a pivot location as you can make the arm any way you want so the point is?? No one checks looks or cares. I see no difference and its great Art wants to listen to people who dont race the class to now hack our cars up like a 5 car. That is not 51600, you want that go class 5. Seams no one follows the rules anyway. I would rather race car counts than run off everybody trying to stay into a stupid pivot position. What is stock location?? I have had my hands on more pans than any of you, none are exactly the same from Vw from year to year, none so what stock do you go to? a 77 is rotated higher than a 69 by a lot because the car is so much heavier Mine are in stock location as much as I cared to put them, prove they arnt, no one looks or cares, move on from that stupidity or you will just lose more cars to rules that dont matter anymore. Arts cars are built and maintained by Rulo, figure that one out. We had a great time racing our Baja bug last week while the rest of you let yours sit. Be in the wheelbase trackwidth engine and trans rules, no one argued everyone had a great time. We lead 6 laps out of 8 with a flat for a entire lap losing the race for us as well as lug nuts we couldnt losen but beat the pants off Rulo all the 9s and UTVs and made nearly 4 minutes back and was great weekend. I dont care anymore because no one else does, I just want to drive my car against car counts as long as its a 51600 car none of the petty crap means anything. Pivot location ??? LOL whats the stock pivot location on a 61 pan? Horns are different size and shape and they didnt come with them Mine are in stock location for my car..the whole argument is.dumb these days. Just like pistons hmm says stock shape and size does it not Hmm just wont change that darn wording

 

[Bro_Gill]

Ok, Dave, we get it, if you don't care, it doesn't matter. But if you do care, it does. Got it. I wasn't talking about angle. I was talking about pivots that set into the torsion housing. Savage found out and did something to stop it. Probably happened long before any of the 5-1600 guys even knew about it. If the rules don't mean anything, why do you even post about them?

 

[harleys dad]

As for the pivot rule, it was hashed out back in the 1980s when Bunderson was moving the pivot into the torsion housing while not changing the center line to stub axle length. Savage found out and started measuring rear arms with a jig he made that looked for this stuff. Stock is stock. As for changes, I have proposed one to Art for consideration, and some of you probably will hate it, but Art seems to think it is possible- No more stock firewalls or package tray in 5-1600. Get rid of them. Makes changing rolled bodies easier. lets cars maintain a more professional appearance and frees up prep time and build time by not having to deal with that part of the body. I know, some folks will say the class has always had them, but why? Class 5 doesn't even use VW bodies anymore, they use fiberglass funny bodies, so why not have 5-1600 be the VW class it should be without mashed up roofs, primer halfway through a season, etc...? Spend the time on other stuff, not finding VW roofs to replace. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there since I proposed it to him last week and he was open to the change. Lets hear it.

Nothing was hashed out in the 80s for 51600, it has read the same since 1977 the beginning of 51600 and should be eliminated finally.

 

[harleys dad]

there were 14 at least and none cared, if they dont I dont. what good does it do to give a damn? just going to run off cars so what is the point? they didnt even check engines or look at anything. fun weekend hope to have 20 or more for BAP

 

[harleys dad]

looking at the page I am the only one posting that races 51600 and did it less than 1 week ago. everyone else??