55gl drum truck bed fuel tower

TJERGENSEN

Well-Known Member
Mike you still have fuel cell vent and then the dual redhead correct ? We noticed ever with the vent and the redhead vent.
The fuel cell pressurized. So be careful not to put to much c.o.2 pressure. 8psi will fill you're truck in 20 seconds
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
TJ, thanks!

Currently we have two 1" discriminator valves. We are taking those out and adding a -8 bulk head fitting check valve with a hose to filter for vent. We will have the Red head for vent also.

So maybe we add two -8 valves for vents? Not looking for more speed for fueling but want to make sure we are not pressuring the system. I read the post from Luke about how they had a 2" vent line that went into the cell 2" and that caused siphoning. So they took that out and went to a single -8. Then I saw the video from Mango that sure looked like their cell was pressurized.

Vince said we need to get a check valve and put a heavier ball in so it will not close when filling but I don't see why the -8 should be doing any of the venting?

I assume the -8 vent line needs to go above the red heads than back down to under the cell so it wont siphon and if you roll over it will not empty the tank regardless of ball.

The one thing I am not sure about is taking out the flaps out of the fills for the cell. Kind of scares me to do that but I think it's necessary. In theory if you roll the fuel would be stopped by the read head. So we need to make sure our duel Red Head system is strong enough to handle a roll over. Might add a skid plate under it so it puts all its weight on the spare tires if we roll over. Again its hard to know what to do. There is no instruction manual on this stuff LOL

Mike
 

drofmij

Well-Known Member
Mike you still have fuel cell vent and then the dual redhead correct ? We noticed ever with the vent and the redhead vent.
The fuel cell pressurized. So be careful not to put to much c.o.2 pressure. 8psi will fill you're truck in 20 seconds
those red heads are only rated for 5lbs also
 

drofmij

Well-Known Member
TJ, thanks!

Currently we have two 1" discriminator valves. We are taking those out and adding a -8 bulk head fitting check valve with a hose to filter for vent. We will have the Red head for vent also.

So maybe we add two -8 valves for vents? Not looking for more speed for fueling but want to make sure we are not pressuring the system. I read the post from Luke about how they had a 2" vent line that went into the cell 2" and that caused siphoning. So they took that out and went to a single -8. Then I saw the video from Mango that sure looked like their cell was pressurized.

Vince said we need to get a check valve and put a heavier ball in so it will not close when filling but I don't see why the -8 should be doing any of the venting?

I assume the -8 vent line needs to go above the red heads than back down to under the cell so it wont siphon and if you roll over it will not empty the tank regardless of ball.

The one thing I am not sure about is taking out the flaps out of the fills for the cell. Kind of scares me to do that but I think it's necessary. In theory if you roll the fuel would be stopped by the read head. So we need to make sure our duel Red Head system is strong enough to handle a roll over. Might add a skid plate under it so it puts all its weight on the spare tires if we roll over. Again its hard to know what to do. There is no instruction manual on this stuff LOL

Mike
BITD has requirements so you might want to check with bitd, or the rule book. I know they require a discriminator valve on the vent.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
those red heads are only rated for 5lbs also
if you are using the Pressure Pro correctly you will not put any load on the red Heads. Just because you have 8-10lbs of pressure in the tank does not mean you will have that pressure in the fuel line to the Redhead. You do not open the tank valve until you are stabbed. And you close the tank valve before you remove the Redhead.

it’s interesting how much false information is out there on the Pressure Pro. For some reason people think they are unsafe but that could not be further from the truth. I believe it’s the safest fueling system available by far.

Mike
 

MAC56

Well-Known Member
I contacted the owner of Red Head when the high flow rate fuel systems fires appeared on behalf of BITD, the limitation is 12 ft of head , higher pressure causes an internal o-ringe to become dislodged and will jam the assembly creating a very serious hazard. The problem is the velocity of the fuel pulls an o-ring out of position it is not that the device will not take the pressure and burst. The statement from Pressure Pro that you connect and disconnect at zero pressure does not address the limitations of the Red Head. 12 ft of head = 5.2 psi so if your fuel supply system has more than 5 psi or if gravity type is more than 12 ft in the air above the connection point on the racecar you are at risk.
the entire system must be reviewed for the weakest link, currently the Red Head is it.
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
As always, I enjoy your write ups and insights... here are my thoughts on bringing new equipment to V2R. I consider SS300 to be the "test race" before V2R, so once things have been vetted at SS300 I do not make equipment changes for V2R (unless something is broken). this year, the SS300 is late and there is not much time between it and V2R to do much testing.

I'm sure the the Pressure Pro is race proven by other teams, but it will need some learnings and lot's of practice by your team. also, making significant changes to your fuel system on the truck has some (lot's of risk) risk. if it were me, I would take the time off-season to make all the mods to the truck and test the system and train your people. then start off the next season with the new system, so by the time SS300 rolls around you will have everything debugged and will be ready for B500, V2R and B1000. rolling out major changes at V2R is asking for trouble.

Anyway, just my thoughts. People have different backgrounds and mine is in engineering and rolling out critical systems, on occasions. there are things you learn over time by making mistakes, or in my case customer and management demands. doing roll outs is usually were I'm conservative and make sure I have Plan A/B/C/etc...
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Cynic,

You are right. But I like to make my life as difficult as possible LOL. To be honest our system was not working so its not like we are risking much. Fueling with dumps cans from both sides is not a good way to do it and made it so we could not change tires. So we need to make a change anyway. That being said you are right and any change is risky.

V2R we have 3 fuel stops unlike only 1 for SS300. so our slow messed up system we had would have been multiplied. We plan to race B500 and B1000 so we see V2R as a test for those races. We are already way out of the points race for BITD.

Its a tough thing to balance risk and reward.

Mike
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
Cynic,

You are right. But I like to make my life as difficult as possible LOL. To be honest our system was not working so its not like we are risking much. Fueling with dumps cans from both sides is not a good way to do it and made it so we could not change tires. So we need to make a change anyway. That being said you are right and any change is risky.

V2R we have 3 fuel stops unlike only 1 for SS300. so our slow messed up system we had would have been multiplied. We plan to race B500 and B1000 so we see V2R as a test for those races. We are already way out of the points race for BITD.

Its a tough thing to balance risk and reward.

Mike
lol... yes, I'm sometimes accused of over thinking things and making things as difficult as possible for myself, as well. it wouldn't be racing if you're not taking some risks and knowing you, you have already been thinking about the risks/benefits for you all along.

I guess the cynic in me is starting to think that this whole year is just a "practice" year anyway in so many ways...
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
I contacted the owner of Red Head when the high flow rate fuel systems fires appeared on behalf of BITD, the limitation is 12 ft of head , higher pressure causes an internal o-ringe to become dislodged and will jam the assembly creating a very serious hazard. The problem is the velocity of the fuel pulls an o-ring out of position it is not that the device will not take the pressure and burst. The statement from Pressure Pro that you connect and disconnect at zero pressure does not address the limitations of the Red Head. 12 ft of head = 5.2 psi so if your fuel supply system has more than 5 psi or if gravity type is more than 12 ft in the air above the connection point on the racecar you are at risk.
the entire system must be reviewed for the weakest link, currently the Red Head is it.

MAC,

Not being a smart A$$, at least not this time. But how can you have pressure on the Red head while it's flowing? I am no engineer but I would think there was less than 1-2 PSI while the system is flowing fuel. You only get pressure when there is a restriction. If the Red Head is open before there is pressure in the hose and shut off before the Red Head is closed how can you have pressure in the fuel line or Red Head?

If fuel flowing into the tank creates pressure on the Red Head than it would also do the same with a Fuel tower. Has anyone measured pressure while fueling on the fuel line with no restriction?

I am open to learning. the good thing about me is I know nothing so I do not have any pre conceived ideas, I have an open mind. But for some reason there seems to be a lot of misinformation about the Pressure Pro system and how it works.

Mike
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
The moment you open the valve, the entire system is pressurized up to the point of the liquid's leading edge at the pressure pro's gauge pressure (0-8 psi). The air in the empty tank is at atmospheric pressure (zero gauge pressure) which is what makes the system flow. The redhead is certainly not restrictionless, especially at these flowrates.

There is a pressure gradient from the pressure pro (high pressure) to the tank (low pressure). You are right in that a fuel tower CAN have the same problems. BUT, nobody makes fuel towers tall enough for that to be a problem where as pressure pro's are not limited by earth's gravity and height.

TL;DR. There is still pressure while flowing.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
MG, thanks I see what you are saying and I get that there is some pressure. Have you watched the instruction video Vince and Cameron did? they pre load the fuel lines so it does not hit the read head or tank hard.

if I have a garden hose with 50psi and my spray valve is closed the hose is hard. (keep the jokes to yourself, LOL) when I open the spray valve the hose goes soft and I am pretty sure there is less than 50psi in the hose while the spray valve is open. Do you agree? if so how much less than 50psi? it depends on flow and volume, right? But my guess is at least half of the pressure is lost if there is not restriction.

There are 80 Pressure Pro's being used by some pretty smart people. I think it's a proven system and has many safety advantages. But like anything you need to use it the right way.

Mike
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
For the garden hose example, you are right that there is not the full 50psi when you open the spray valve. The value is somewhere between 50 and 0 and that is the golden question.

Think of the redhead as a restrictor in the middle of a length of hose. Low flow rates would have less pressure differential (the difference between pressure before restrictor and pressure after restrictor). High flow rates would have more pressure differential. It is hard to know without getting some data just how much pressure is upstream of the redhead during fueling.

A safe bet would be to set the max pressure of the system (pressure pro) below the redhead limit, hoping that doesn't slow down fueling much if at all. I don't have direct experience with pressure pro's or red heads but it clearly works!
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Makes sense, and yeah would be interesting to know what kind of pressures we would get. I know some teams have ran as much as 13 PSI. Like Todd said before in this thread that he recommends 8psi. Vince says 10psi is safe.

I am not worried about a couple seconds. We mostly like the PP for not having to transfer fuel during the race and for a closed system for safety. Also nice not having guys lifting 11 gallon dump cans. I am fine with fuel tower fuel speeds for fueling, Still way faster than dump cans. So we are excited about the PP but are taking it very seriously.

I fly airplanes and its the same kind of thing, things are safe when you stay within the envelope. Get out side the envelope or screw up and you can die. Fueling and Flying are both serious business.

Mike
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
difference with general aviation and off road racing is that in flying, there has been a lot of engineering, testing and regulations in place to enforce a buffer between the standard operating conditions and when things become dangerous, whereas in off road racing there is still a bunch of cowboy practice going on. sure you have organizing bodies writing down some rules, but as you found out things are not as regulated, defined and not everyone is following these rules or have different interpretations of them. on top of that, you have independent suppliers designing fuel delivery and storage system, who are not constrained by any sort of over seeing organizations, like SAE, DOT, FAA, etc... and as you found out, there really isn't much in the form of documentation or installation/user's manuals. I have watched the PP training video and came away with the notion that I do not want to be near one of those when there is fueling or charging going on. sure, it might be safer than a tower, but still. in fact, my general instructions to my pit crew is that if anyone is fueling a truck with a PP or a tower near them, to just walk far away while they are doing their thing.

I like you and enjoy your presence in this sport. I want you and your crew to be safe and be successful so you're around racing for a long time and I can continue to read and enjoy your posts.
 

cubed

Well-Known Member
It is not the pressure that dislodges the O-ring, it is the velocity of the fluid moving past it, the increased pressure results in a higher flow rate, thus a velocity increase (more gpm past the O-ring ) and thus the start of O-ring displacement issues in the redhead.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Cynic,

You are spot on with cowboy practice. LOL and yes there are usually engineers dealing with most aspects of Aviation, not so much in the Off-road race world.

Thanks. What is your concern with the PP? how do you see it failing? I want to make sure there are not failure modes that I have not thought about. I am not worried about a tank thats made for 150psi and has a 13 psi relieve valve failing. I have way more risky things in my life. LOL but maybe there is a failure that I am not thinking of?

Mike
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
Cynic,

You are spot on with cowboy practice. LOL and yes there are usually engineers dealing with most aspects of Aviation, not so much in the Off-road race world.

Thanks. What is your concern with the PP? how do you see it failing? I want to make sure there are not failure modes that I have not thought about. I am not worried about a tank thats made for 150psi and has a 13 psi relieve valve failing. I have way more risky things in my life. LOL but maybe there is a failure that I am not thinking of?

Mike
it depends on two guys fueling the truck and turning on/off valves in the proper sequence. I.e. delivery valve off, insert hot stab, valve on... valve off, take off hot stab. I.e. there is no built-in failsafe, if the hotstab comes out or o-ring fails and the valve man doesn't shut off the valve quick enough, etc... and this is if all the equipment is installed properly, etc...

also, fuel at pressure (whether from compressed CO2 or gravity feed tower) is just risky, because you can't just hit the emergency power off button to make it stop feeding.

I guess it would be cool, if you guys could develop extra safety stuff in your development that can be shared by others... anyway, I'm sure you are also diligent to extensively train your crew in this and go through the devil's advocate brainstorming of what stuff can happen and how to deal with it in the heat of the moment.
 
Last edited:

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
MT- You are viewing pressure incorrectly. Just because you can squish the garden hose when the nozzle is closed does not mean there is less pressure, what you are actually seeing is the inability to compress a liquid, basic hydraulics. When the nozzle is open there is somewhere for that fluid to move to while still under pressure AND, when you squish the hose, it actually initially increases the pressure in the hose until equilibrium in the system can be met. ANY flammable liquid under ANY pressure presents a higher safety risk in any system. And I have seen a couple redheads that have had the o-ring failure and will not close. It does not take much for a small failure to be a big disaster.
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
oh, the other thing that bothered me is that you monitor the vent line to determine when to shut off. if you wait too long (or there is pressure in the fuel cell) or you plug it in backwards (can you even do that ?), you end up dumping a bunch of fuel into the trash can they were using to catch the fuel.
 
Top