6100 engine inspection and cheater motors

[householder]

Don

I am hearing the fire was due to raw fuel from the limiter feature for pit speed?

if that’s true I would like to know how Herbst gets that feature to work on a stock engine ECM?

this matters as it’s been said that Herbst has a “piggy back” Motec ECM that they claim is for sensors only. But the way it is wired it could be actually running the engine, which would be against the rules.

To my knowledge and all of the Turners I talked to you can not do a speed limiter with stock ECM.

Mike

Hey Mike, You are more then welcome to walk up and look/inspect our truck at anytime. there is no motec ECU piggybacked in our truck, just the stock ECU. We at Householder Motorsports purchase all of our motors directly from colby at turnkey. As for speed limiter with the stock ECU, you might just want to find smarter tuners because and can be done and my other trucks have it too.

 

[randy68]

Sure sounds to me like he has a hardon for the Herbst'....

 

[MTPyle]

Adam, ( I think its adam)

Thanks for posting. Good to know you guys do not have the piggy back that I have "heard" of.

I will do more research but I am pretty confident the Stock GM LS3 ECM can not do speed limiter. I know its easy on aftermarket ECM as most of the TT have them. Motec can obviously do it and I bet thats how Don's truck is managing that feature.

I am just getting frustrated with the lack of enforcement. Since nobody has been DQ'd or penalized in 6100 in years everyone keeps pushing the limits. Trucks show up with 2 speed under drives and just get told to not do that. They have rear fenders designed to fall off and nobody cares. They measure more than they should in post race tech and its OK.

To the guys that get defensive about me asking these questions. If you are not cheating you have nothing to worry about. I would love it if I was totally wrong and everyone was legit. At least by me bringing these questions up it lets people know someone is watching,

Mike

 

[MTPyle]

Sure sounds to me like he has a hardon for the Herbst'....

Randy68,

It just seems to me that Herbst trucks are getting more and comfortable pushing the limits. I dont see Geiser trucks showing up with 2 speed under drives and body panels that are designed to fall off. I dont see Mason trucks having these issues either.

Herbst is willing to push the limits and for that they get more attention. I have huge respect for Herbst and what they have done. I would say the single most important truck company in the Biz. But I am aware of Normalization of Devience and the slipper slope.

Mike

 

[43mod]

As a tech guy there is no way i would let a peanut gallery behind my back as i worked . Truck owner/driver/ crew chief , my assistant and two / three competitor reps max . Video all you like .

 

[BajaAddict]

Pretty sure there was only one individual with the 2 speed underdrive and he claims to of changed it.. As for rear fenders I only see one individual doing that as well. I wouldn't bunch Herbst in as a whole because of 2 people walking a fine line with the rules.

 

[mebedb1]

Mike,
We discussed the fire with BITD after the race.
Starts out, you were confident Our, not Mine, truck was at 11:1 compression based on 2nd hand info.
and that was proven to be incorrect... I really don't have more to say in this thread. see you at KOH

 

[MTPyle]

I don’t get why everyone is so defensive.

we race in a Spec truck class. It has rules and those rules need to be enforced. If you are offended by someone asking if you are following the rules than maybe spec racing is not for you. Go to TT and answer no questions.

If someone asked me to prove that I was following the rules I would be happy to prove them wrong. I would not be offended or defensive at all

Mike

 

[MTPyle]

Pretty sure there was only one individual with the 2 speed underdrive and he claims to of changed it.. As for rear fenders I only see one individual doing that as well. I wouldn't bunch Herbst in as a whole because of 2 people walking a fine line with the rules.

DesertRacer

Good point. You are right it’s not fair to put all Herbst Trucks in the same group. Many Herbst trucks are prepped and maintained by other people.

Like Adam pointed out they have all legit stuff

the 2 speed Underdrive was the BWDC race back a couple months ago. I don’t think anyone had a 2 speed under drive at this most recent race.

Mike

 

[mebedb1]

I'm not offended by questions at all, Mike.
Accusations are a different matter. We have nothing to hide, and if those other "Herbst" trucks were cheating, Andrew would have been all up in their $h it. That I'll Guarantee, Sir.

 

[MTPyle]

Don

I was asking how you control the pit speed feature on the Stock ECM. That’s a fair question as we have asked before and tried and were told by Tunrkey and our tuner that it’s not possible with stock ECM. If it’s possible great. Sounds like a scary dangerous feature anyway. I think yours is not the first Herbst truck to catch on fire from this.

The compression ratio thing has still not been totally cleared up. And I said all along it was second hand info. And it still seems like there is some question about what the range should be and what the trucks measured. If you are saying you guys measured 10.7:1 than great. I have not called anyone a Liar. I don’t think anyone is outright lying.

Mike

 

[mebedb1]

Mike,
I agree, fair question. I, like you, do not know the answer to that, and I don't need to.
I Pit, Chase, play Test dummy in the right seat, set up GPS files, pre run/qualify when Julio can't, navigate for another 2 teams
in a 10, and 1 cars... oh, and play back up navigator at all Andrew's races, while pitting.

Some things are above my pay grade.

Don

 

[Dave Cole 4454]

Mike,
You know I appreciate you, but you are literally echoing everything that has been said about 'spec' racing forever...regardless of the series, the style of racing, or the specs.

It is the only reason we dont do grey area performance rules.

Racing is not cheap or "fair" by its nature. Spec racing does nothing but make each of those attributes worse.

The more rules you make, the more people will spend to get around them.

You need to either accept that or not.

You pulled the pin and lobbed a grenade based on "assumptions" and things you heard.

It makes sense we should be asking 2 basic questions.

Turnkey...what are the specs of the motors being tagged.

Promoters...what are you going to do to insure racers are playing by the rules.

Thats it...the rest is drama.


I will have testers and techs on hand to test the podium trucks as they are sitting at the finish line.

If the results are outside of the specs as prescribed by Turnkey, the racer will be disqualified.

I have a call into Colby at Turnkey to get the specs and agree upon testing method.

 

[Jerry Zaiden]

Todd,
It Happens right there...................! "A" Racer is Allowed to Purchase an engine, Take the heads off real Quick ..... and ..... How Does Turn Key control What thtey didnt buy and seal ... as @Jerry Zaiden said ...

IMO - ALL Engines must be purchased TAGGED by the said engine tagger. THEN shipped to whoever to do the rest (Truck Builder, other engine guys, ETC)

Also IMO the 6100 class has gotten out of hand with all the rule changes. The point of this class was to keep things as affordable as possible. Obviously we can make everything faster and better but where do we draw the line? Now we have underdrives, bigger tires, bigger engines etc... We are spending more money on parts that we never needed to go fast, win races, and have fun. There will always be someone who wants more. There will always be someone who points the finger calling someone a cheater. There will always be someone who focuses on what others are doing before they focus on their own success. This is racing with a bunch of egos and ideas. We can always make things better and faster isn't that why we have an unlimited TT class? Well now we are here. Still people wanting more some wanting things the way they were. But we are here. I feel that with less rules we have less bitching.

IMO These should be the rules for 6100. These are the same rules I wanted in the very beginning other than the stock LS7 engine.
1) Sealed Tagged Engine from one engine supplier. Said engine supplier must get engine direct from GM. ECU is open, who cares.
2) Solid rear axle NO IFS.
3) Truck body.

The rest of the rules should be open.


IMO with the price of a transmission and an underdrive why not allow a manual trans? Why does it matter what ECU you run? Let 6100 be the above idea.
Then have this new 6800 class people want to be the new 7/7200 class where a sealed v6 turbo engine or a 430hp ls engine to the old style rules at this point if that's the way things are going.

Carry on...

 

[MTPyle]

Mike,
You know I appreciate you, but you are literally echoing everything that has been said about 'spec' racing forever...regardless of the series, the style of racing, or the specs.

It is the only reason we dont do grey area performance rules.

Racing is not cheap or "fair" by its nature. Spec racing does nothing but make each of those attributes worse.

The more rules you make, the more people will spend to get around them.

You need to either accept that or not.

You pulled the pin and lobbed a grenade based on "assumptions" and things you heard.

It makes sense we should be asking 2 basic questions.

Turnkey...what are the specs of the motors being tagged.

Promoters...what are you going to do to insure racers are playing by the rules.

Thats it...the rest is drama.


I will have testers and techs on hand to test the podium trucks as they are sitting at the finish line.

If the results are outside of the specs as prescribed by Turnkey, the racer will be disqualified.

I have a call into Colby at Turnkey to get the specs and agree upon testing method.

Dave

Not sure my grenade was just based on assumptions. We still do not know what the two top Herbst trucks measured and I had 2 guys that were there say they saw numbers over 11:1 on the Whistler. One had a video of it that the BITD official made him delete before he kicked him out of the area.

so there is enough smoke to think there might be fire. The fact that this same truck has pushed every rule and keeps doing things that they are told are not OK without getting a penalty is also cause for concern.

Facts as we know it. The 1st place truck had a 2 speed under drive in the last race (no penalty given), this race he had rear panels that were designed to fall off and did very early and together, they have pit speed feature which is questionable (could mean after market ECM), and they reportable measured high compression on the Whistler.

unfortunately BITD is in a tough political situation to challenge some of these things. I am not. I could care less what people think of me. I want the class to be fair and people to follow the rules. I have no problem asking questions and challenging racers. If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.

You say you want racers to police themselves, that’s what I am doing.

Mike

 

[Aflac]

It should be known that the truck you are referring to is not prepped by or at HSF or Terrible Herbst Motorsports!!! You should start referring to this truck as something different instead of dragging a great name and great group of people through the mud.
Just my thoughts.
Also maybe get off the forum for a few minutes and figure out how to make your truck faster...

 

[mebedb1]

Mike,
You can edit your "facts as we know it" as many times as necessary to sound how you meant that.

That statement will never be farther from the truth.

Edit; funny thing is, I took a picture of your first entry and sent it off to an individual. hmmm,
...and that's the issue, Mike you don't really know what truck you are talking about, because you've combined multiple trucks and multiple situations into one.

 

[43mod]

So the class to rescue out of date T trucks has escalated a bit , no kidding . What dumb thing will racers do next ? Build dedicated new 6200 builds ? No way man ! That class is going to bring out all the old one cars . Ok i will shut up now

 

[MTPyle]

It should be known that the truck you are referring to is not prepped by or at HSF or Terrible Herbst Motorsports!!! You should start referring to this truck as something different instead of dragging a great name and great group of people through the mud.
Just my thoughts.
Also maybe get off the forum for a few minutes and figure out how to make your truck faster...

Good point and thanks for the info. I did say that it might not be prepped by Herbst and yes it’s unfair to “drag” their name thru it. It’s more on the truck owner.

And I don’t think we can make our truck faster. We need to make us drive faster. Haha but I get your point and give you the nod of a good jab. Hehe

I guess everyone should just keep to themselves and not question anything. Haha

Mike

 

[MTPyle]

Mike,
You can edit your "facts as we know it" as many times as necessary to sound how you meant that.

That statement will never be farther from the truth.

Edit; funny thing is, I took a picture of your first entry and sent it off to an individual. hmmm,
...and that's the issue, Mike you don't really know what truck you are talking about, because you've combined multiple trucks and multiple situations into one.

fair enough. I was trying to be more general and not specific. I guess that was the wrong choice.

To be more specific it’s the trucks of Growboski and Blower that were in question. They are both Newer Herbst trucks.

You can see in the poll on this thread that vast majority of people think BITD should do a better job of enforcing the rules. In fact it’s 90% of people. For that reason I think it’s OK for me to challenge things as they come up. I don’t see anyone else doing it.

Mike