6100 engine inspection and cheater motors

[mebedb1]

You matter, to me.

 

[CRAIG_HALL]

Craig

I think it’s OK to call a Herbst Smith built truck a Herbst truck. That’s what it is. Most of the Herbst built trucks are the top dollar guys that do push the Limits. I would bet the Herbst team and the Herbst Smith guys are comfortable enough with their name being used to describe the trucks they built. That’s kind of what happens when you name your trucks the same as your last name.

Nothing wrong with pushing the limits as long as the Racing orgs make it clear where the limits are and you stay within them. And they enforce them. Everyone will go into the gray if they can without being told otherwise.

I guess I need to put my sensitivity filter on in here. It’s like I am talking to a bunch of women. I treat people the same way I expect to get treated. You think something say it, I can handle it and I expect others can to.

Mike

Mike,
My point about calling it a Herbst truck was if you knew the team you wanted to call out simply call out that team (Grabowski) don’t simply say the top finishers or those Herbst trucks. The unknowing person might assume you actually mean the Herbst team truck itself. Everyone at the shop is more than happy knowing the name is associated with the trucks built, just not when you lump the name into accusations.

 

[E.Hagle]

I’ll say it again. Bring out the dyno and figure out raw horsepower. If someone is cheating it will be very apparent. Only do it at two random races a year or even one. Add it to the cost of entry for the spec class.

 

[Rcamp99]

Ok, understood and thanks for pointing that out. It’s not just second hand info though. It was verified by 3 people and all had the same story.

fact is nobody will say anything on here because they will get what I get. Everyone is scared to challenge anything. I don’t get it. If I challenge someone and I am wrong so be it. We all learn and move on.

I am happy to be wrong and anyone can come anytime and tell me to F off to my face. I will listen to them and buy them a beer or cocktail. The discussion is good and needed.

From this thread it seems like I better stock up on Beer and cocktails for KOH. Haha or make sure nobody knows where my camp is. LOL

Mike

Strong back bumper wouldn’t hurt either

 

[MTPyle]

Thanks for your support RCamp99 Haha

Mike

 

[Rcamp99]

Thanks for your support RCamp99 Haha

Mike

How scary would it be for you to have poked the bees nest like this then start up front hahahah. Was like me starting up front at the legacy race in the only non turbo car in the class. Everyone behind me made over double the HP of me. Run for your life and make as much dust as possible jajaja.

 

[mebedb1]

"The most accurate readings are obtained from a cold engine since there is less chance of error in determining ambient cylinder temperature compared to that in a 160-200 degree cylinder."

Awesome, I verified water temp of 112 degrees, once tech. had obtained their reading from the cylinder, they asked for that...
as cross reference to the temp they took...........................


I was back from Pit 2 by that time...

DB

 

[WarTrophy6003]

You matter, to me.

Chris wardle
-#6003-was my last truck- Trophylite
_ currently building 6100 spec

 

[BajaAddict]

Awesome, I verified water temp of 112 degrees, once tech. had obtained their reading from the cylinder, they asked for that...
as cross reference to the temp they took...........................


I was back from Pit 2 by that time...

DB

But I will stand by the fact the I watch 5 trucks get tested , I watched 5 different Results ... I have talk to 2 major engine Builders and 10:7.1 and 11.0.1 IS A GIANT difference , and it is not achieved by a Fluke , it is intentional ...
that result also does not vary due to engine Temp, Air intake temp , or wear and tear on the engine .

DB:
I'm not saying the test was or wasn't done properly at tech. I'm just proving that WarTrophy's "fact" is incorrect. The test is dependent on the temperature of the cylinder.

More from the Whistler Instructions:
"Note: Temperature is critical and can change quickly in a hot engine. After step 13 below, it may be necessary to insert the Whistler probe and allow the air temperature to stabilize for a minute or two. Then, remove the probe and measure the temperature again and adjust the Whistler input accordingly."

In regards to the rest of the comments in this thread:
Up to this point, everyone is just spreading information around without any hard facts behind it. Whether they be accurate, somewhat accurate, or false; no one knows the true numbers except the BITD tech team. So leave it to the BITD to enforce them. After all they are the sanctioning body. I'm sure Darryl Putnam wants the class to be competitive and have all the trucks be within the rules more than anyone.

 

[WarTrophy6003]

How scary would it be for you to have poked the bees nest like this then start up front hahahah. Was like me starting up front at the legacy race in the only non turbo car in the class. Everyone behind me made over double the HP of me. Run for your life and make as much dust as possible jajaja.

Not sure how this compares .... not sure @MTPyle did a fuc$ing thing out side the box of concern..... I really feel like mike and the others are saying what everyone wants to say ..... but no one wants the back lash ...
Like I said .... I have learned how to get “the most “ outta my 6100 spec build in the last 4 days ....!

 

[WarTrophy6003]

DB:
I'm not saying the test was or wasn't done properly at tech. I'm just proving that WarTrophy's "fact" is incorrect. The test is dependent on the temperature of the cylinder.

More from the Whistler Instructions:
"Note: Temperature is critical and can change quickly in a hot engine. After step 13 below, it may be necessary to insert the Whistler probe and allow the air temperature to stabilize for a minute or two. Then, remove the probe and measure the temperature again and adjust the Whistler input accordingly."

In regards to the rest of the comments in this thread:
Up to this point, everyone is just spreading information around without any hard facts behind it. Whether they be accurate, somewhat accurate, or false; no one knows the true numbers except the BITD tech team. So leave it to the BITD to enforce them. After all they are the sanctioning body. I'm sure Darryl Putnam wants the class to be competitive and have all the trucks be within the rules more than anyone.

You didn’t disprove anything - according to the best engine builders in the industry .. you disproved 1/2 of the tests done on the day you were not present for .

 

[MTPyle]

DesertRacer

so you are in the camp of BITD is doing enough and we should just trust that?

I think we have all agreed that BITD has not done enough in the past. I do think they have done more in the last two races than the last two years. So clearly even they have tried to make an effort. But with a good chance that there are cheaters in 6100 until they give a penalty we will not have the confidence in their process.

just from a outside stand point if you have a group of racers in spec class and not one penalty has been given in years than there is a problem.

Mike

 

[WarTrophy6003]

DB:
I'm not saying the test was or wasn't done properly at tech. I'm just proving that WarTrophy's "fact" is incorrect. The test is dependent on the temperature of the cylinder.

More from the Whistler Instructions:
"Note: Temperature is critical and can change quickly in a hot engine. After step 13 below, it may be necessary to insert the Whistler probe and allow the air temperature to stabilize for a minute or two. Then, remove the probe and measure the temperature again and adjust the Whistler input accordingly."

In regards to the rest of the comments in this thread:
Up to this point, everyone is just spreading information around without any hard facts behind it. Whether they be accurate, somewhat accurate, or false; no one knows the true numbers except the BITD tech team. So leave it to the BITD to enforce them. After all they are the sanctioning body. I'm sure Darryl Putnam wants the class to be competitive and have all the trucks be within the rules more than anyone.

The tests were conducted with in 25 minutes of each other ...the “air intake temp “ was referenced ....... not cylinder temp ...
the engine could have been brought to the same temp .... if the tester was properly trained ... IMO ...

that doesn’t explain Or disprove the difference between 10.7:1 and 11.1:1 .....x 8 cylinders ....
but I guess you rest your case with BITD who hasn’t issue a spec class penalty for breaking the rules in 2 years ...

Just keep qualifying out front ... and figure out a way to make your fenders and hood fly off at the first corner ... to gain every advantage you can on the competition Instead of beating them per the rules.

I for one am happy to finally see BITD step up the last 2 races and start to enforce the rules ... I am not sure the process is what it needs to be ...

But if Daryl Putnam or BITD needs a volunteer or money to make a better qualifying tech and post race tech inspection I am happy to put my money where my mouth is ....and make it fair !

 

[BajaAddict]

You didn’t disprove anything - according to the best engine builders in the industry .. you disproved 1/2 of the tests done on the day you were not present for .

Actually I discussed both tests and the faults with both of them:
Speedway Cubic Inch Tester https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/550-3200.pdf
Whistler Compression Ratio https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_f...584/Whistler_Procedures_Manual.pdf?1432153407

And you along with your "engine builders" stated engine temperature doesn't matter for the Whistler Compression Ratio Test doesn't matter... When in fact it Whistler itself says temperature is critical.

DesertRacer

so you are in the camp of BITD is doing enough and we should just trust that?

I think we have all agreed that BITD has not done enough in the past. I do think they have done more in the last two races than the last two years. So clearly even they have tried to make an effort. But with a good chance that there are cheaters in 6100 until they give a penalty we will not have the confidence in their process.

just from a outside strand point if you have a group of racers in spec class and not one penalty has been given than there is a problem.

Mike

Previously they had not done enough.

I believe BITD(Darryl) is doing his best to verify everyone is following the rules now, and will continue to do his best to enforce the rules as the season progresses. I.E. checking to see if anyone is running a piggybacked ECU at Bluewater as well as stating they don't allow 2 speed underdrives. (The team that had one has since removed their 2-speed). And now taking the Cubic Inch Test as well as the Compression Ratio Test on the Top 5 Finishers at Parker.

Here lies the issue though: It was a fiasco at Parker because both of these tests were new to Darryl and the BITD tech team (I assume) as they ran into issues with the tests, were reading instructions while trying to perform them, and tested the same vehicles multiple times because of false readings. People say they saw a high cubic inch number or a high compression ratio, and that may be true, but only BITD knows if that was the accurate test or a mistake on their end. As I previously pointed out their are multiple variables to both tests that most people don't understand. So in this situation I believe it's best to be left in the BITD tech team/Darryl's hands.

If you have better procedures on how to test for 6100 legality you should contact BITD/Darryl and help them with it directly. Not rant on Race Dezert about whom might or might not be cheating based on hearsay.

 

[BajaAddict]

The tests were conducted with in 25 minutes of each other ...the “air intake temp “ was referenced ....... not cylinder temp ...
the engine could have been brought to the same temp .... if the tester was properly trained ... IMO ...

that doesn’t explain Or disprove the difference between 10.7:1 and 11.1:1 .....x 8 cylinders ....
but I guess you rest your case with BITD who hasn’t issue a spec class penalty for breaking the rules in 2 years ...

Just keep qualifying out front ... and figure out a way to make your fenders and hood fly off at the first corner ... to gain every advantage you can on the competition Instead of beating them per the rules.

I for one am happy to finally see BITD step up the last 2 races and start to enforce the rules ... I am not sure the process is what it needs to be ...

But if Daryl Putnam or BITD needs a volunteer or money to make a better qualifying tech and post race tech inspection I am happy to put my money where my mouth is ....and make it fair !

Seems like we are in the same boat.. We just need accurate testing.

 

[MTPyle]

I have talked to a lot of people on the phone after making this post. There have been some great conversations with some great dudes.

One common theme is A nobody wants to post on RDC. Haha and B Every single person I have talked to is 100% sure there are trucks with cheats of some sort. Many have actual specifics and examples.

So if all that came from this was me getting to talk to these guys and learn more about their programs and life’s than it was worth it. But it was much more than that. Lots of great ideas of how to deal with it in the future and every single person believes there has been a shift in the approach from BITD.

I had wrongly assumed that since Darrell has been the guy in charge at BITD tech for many years that it would be the same. But it’s clear that he has new power and conviction to clean house. I wish him the best and will do all I can to support him.

I am more confident than ever that there are cheaters in 6100 and that they will get caught if they continue to push beyond the rules.

Let’s go racing.

Mike

 

[critter81]

I’ll say it again. Bring out the dyno and figure out raw horsepower. If someone is cheating it will be very apparent. Only do it at two random races a year or even one. Add it to the cost of entry for the spec class.

There are way to many variables in a dyno
1) Tire Temp
2) Tire brand and model
3) Tire Pressure
4) RIM weight
5) Torque converter
6) Fuel
I could keep going but....

All of those will make a variable reading on a dyno....

 

[Bro_Gill]

Perhaps BITD is checking more but not enforcing yet to give teams the 'CLUE' that it is coming and giving them the benefit of the doubt that maybe minor mistakes that have been made will no longer be tolerated. This way, they don't alienate some teams and drive them from the series and allow them to not be branded cheater FOR LIFE, because that is what happens when someone gets caught cheating in a series. This way, the 'mistakes' can be corrected and everyone keeps racing knowing they don't want to repeat that 'mistake' again.

 

[E.Hagle]

There are way to many variables in a dyno
1) Tire Temp
2) Tire brand and model
3) Tire Pressure
4) RIM weight
5) Torque converter
6) Fuel
I could keep going but....

All of those will make a variable reading on a dyno....

Wouldn’t be hard to tag everything

 

[critter81]

Wouldn’t be hard to tag everything

LOL tagging would not help...