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6100, TTspec, Baja Truck only thread

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
is anyone using dust separators like cyclones or labyrinth in front of the filter to get some/most of the dust to drop out so it doesn't overwhelm the filter as quickly ?
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
I have not seen any particle separators on Spec trucks other then the UMP canister, which is a type of particle separator. But many of the ones I have seen installed in spec trucks are in wrong and will not work as designed. And even if they are installed right they rob power. Ironically many take out the plastic part out of the UMP that does the separation of the particles. Then you are left with a horrible flowing can that does nothing.

We looked at putting in the large Donaldson Powercore industrial particle separators but to get the air flow a LS or LT needs they are huge, like 26x29x16, and even that is barely enough CFM. The guys that make the UTV ones are making one for full size trucks but its still super large and does not flow enough for a TTspec engine. I have done so much research on this and crunched all the numbers. We also tested our calculations on the dyne so we have a good idea of whats needed and the effects of restrictions on the SBC. I can tell you how many HP you lose per foot of intake tube, whats CFM you need at WOT, and how much a K&N falls off after used as we even tested dirty filters.

We are going to move our filter back into the cab, which is not what I want to do but I want the LT2 intake performance. Our plan is to make a custom large plenum box with flat K&N drop in filters, velocity stack, and custom Outerwear. The drop ins can be easily swapped and we can add enough surface area for long silt races like the B1K. We have to deal with heat and try to not make it huge. I think with enough filter surface area we can use the K&N and still get good results. Just another science project for us that hopefully I won't regret. LOL

In my opinion Air intake is a huge factor in spec racing and often overlooked. If I can make 20-30hp more than other trucks that's huge. And even better if it does not fall off as much on longer runs. Imagine having 95% power at the end of the B1K and others have 60%. Even a crap driver like me has a chance. Haha.

Mike
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
I have not seen any particle separators on Spec trucks other then the UMP canister, which is a type of particle separator. But many of the ones I have seen installed in spec trucks are in wrong and will not work as designed. And even if they are installed right they rob power. Ironically many take out the plastic part out of the UMP that does the separation of the particles. Then you are left with a horrible flowing can that does nothing.

We looked at putting in the large Donaldson Powercore industrial particle separators but to get the air flow a LS or LT needs they are huge, like 26x29x16, and even that is barely enough CFM. The guys that make the UTV ones are making one for full size trucks but its still super large and does not flow enough for a TTspec engine. I have done so much research on this and crunched all the numbers. We also tested our calculations on the dyne so we have a good idea of whats needed and the effects of restrictions on the SBC. I can tell you how many HP you lose per foot of intake tube, whats CFM you need at WOT, and how much a K&N falls off after used as we even tested dirty filters.

We are going to move our filter back into the cab, which is not what I want to do but I want the LT2 intake performance. Our plan is to make a custom large plenum box with flat K&N drop in filters, velocity stack, and custom Outerwear. The drop ins can be easily swapped and we can add enough surface area for long silt races like the B1K. We have to deal with heat and try to not make it huge. I think with enough filter surface area we can use the K&N and still get good results. Just another science project for us that hopefully I won't regret. LOL

In my opinion Air intake is a huge factor in spec racing and often overlooked. If I can make 20-30hp more than other trucks that's huge. And even better if it does not fall off as much on longer runs. Imagine having 95% power at the end of the B1K and others have 60%. Even a crap driver like me has a chance. Haha.

Mike
that's great. I love when people actually do research and try things, rather than just following internet recipes. I figured that a properly sized separator would be large for the flow that would be required for an engine of that size. maybe having multiple filters to maximize filter area is an effective way to do this, after all.
 

Class10DAN

Well-Known Member
Uh oh a class 10 guy has entered the chat... anyways i have a really stupid question thats gonna have 1 out of 2 outcomes, either you guys are gonna tell me to gtfo and go chill in the class 10 thread or you guys are gonna laugh at me then tell me to go to the class 10 thread but here it goes. whats the difference between TT and TTspec, all i know (and i still might be wrong) but TT spec runs a sealed V8. anyways if anyone want to help me out that would be appreciated.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
I believe 6100 is same as TT except 6100 is

Spec engines only. (Sealed LS3 V8 [430 or 525 hp], Sealed LT1 V8, Sealed Ford 3.5L Eco-boost V6, Sealed Ford 5.0 V8, etc./No dry-sump allowed)
Turbo 400 only (No other trans allowed)
Front engine only. (No mid or rear engine allowed)
RWD only. (No AWD)
Solid rear axle only. (No IRS)
40s MAX tire size. (No 42's etc)
 
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Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
We looked at putting in the large Donaldson Powercore industrial particle separators but to get the air flow a LS or LT needs they are huge, like 26x29x16, and even that is barely enough CFM. The guys that make the UTV ones are making one for full size trucks but its still super large and does not flow enough for a TTspec engine. I have done so much research on this and crunched all the numbers. We also tested our calculations on the dyne so we have a good idea of whats needed and the effects of restrictions on the SBC. I can tell you how many HP you lose per foot of intake tube, whats CFM you need at WOT, and how much a K&N falls off after used as we even tested dirty filters.

Mike
Mike...how much CFM do you fiqure you need for at WOT?
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
I'm learning about some of this stuff and very interesting. This is just a snippet from an article.

The general rule for racing carburetors is to have 1.1 times the calculated air demand because VE is usually greater than 100 percent. To accommodate the higher efficiency, multiply the theoretical air potential by 1.1. So if our 350 engine is highly modified with racing heads, cam, and intake manifold, we calculate as follows:
Race Carbcfm = [(350 x 6,500) ÷ 3,456] x 1.1 = 724

In this case, you would probably choose a 750-cfm carburetor since it is the nearest common size, especially if you are drag racing. If you are road racing, you might consider a 700-cfm Holley because it has 1/16-inch-smaller venturis that might improve throttle response off of tight corners. In this case the smaller carb may prove to be the better choice. As a general rule, it has been found that going with the smaller carb almost always yields the best results.

Performance carburetors are mostly made in 50-cfm increments, so if your airflow calculations happen to split the difference, choose the smaller carb unless you have a compelling reason to go larger.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Honda48,

thats a good calculation. thanks for posting.

Robinhood,
Thats the million dollar question. You can figure out required CFM via formulas that Honda just posted. Where is gets tricky is understanding the system. Let say you have a filter that can flow 1000cfm. That measurement is usually from filter surface and not measured on the output of the filter. So where the air goes into the intake tube has turbulence and restriction, which lowers your actual available CFM. Then you go thru a tube with maybe some turns. Each turn and each 1" of tube increases restriction, then MAF ads turbulence and restriction.

So it's not about what your filter can flow, it is how it gets to the Throttle body. So you have to measure the system not the parts of the system. The real tricky part is understanding turbulence. Out first intake tube wasn't super clean, we re did it and cleaned it up. We got another 10hp just from dealing with how the air moved thru the tube. Technically the CFM could have been calculated from the parts of the system but in the real world it did not flow what it should have.

So if we need X at the throttle body you need to calculate all the reductions. Then you need to figure lose due to dust load. It gets to be a long problem to work out. But we got there and proved our math on the dyno, well for the most part. LOL there is still a lot we do not know.

I wont go into the more complex part of understanding CFM and thats how its measured with pressure. You will see specs like CFM @ 6" H2O. So its not just about the CFM its how hard the engine has to work to pull that much CFM, or velocity required to achieve said CFM.

I am sure there are some engineers that know way more than I do but we figured out enough for our purpose. It's been helpful to have Whipple help is with these problems. You should see the CFD programs they have for Supercharger and intake designs. All they do is air flow.

Mike
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
Honda48,

thats a good calculation. thanks for posting.

Robinhood,
Thats the million dollar question. You can figure out required CFM via formulas that Honda just posted. Where is gets tricky is understanding the system. Let say you have a filter that can flow 1000cfm. That measurement is usually from filter surface and not measured on the output of the filter. So where the air goes into the intake tube has turbulence and restriction, which lowers your actual available CFM. Then you go thru a tube with maybe some turns. Each turn and each 1" of tube increases restriction, then MAF ads turbulence and restriction.

So it's not about what your filter can flow, it is how it gets to the Throttle body. So you have to measure the system not the parts of the system. The real tricky part is understanding turbulence. Out first intake tube wasn't super clean, we re did it and cleaned it up. We got another 10hp just from dealing with how the air moved thru the tube. Technically the CFM could have been calculated from the parts of the system but in the real world it did not flow what it should have.

So if we need X at the throttle body you need to calculate all the reductions. Then you need to figure lose due to dust load. It gets to be a long problem to work out. But we got there and proved our math on the dyno, well for the most part. LOL there is still a lot we do not know.

I wont go into the more complex part of understanding CFM and thats how its measured with pressure. You will see specs like CFM @ 6" H2O. So its not just about the CFM its how hard the engine has to work to pull that much CFM, or velocity required to achieve said CFM.

I am sure there are some engineers that know way more than I do but we figured out enough for our purpose. It's been helpful to have Whipple help is with these problems. You should see the CFD programs they have for Supercharger and intake designs. All they do is air flow.

Mike
What powercore were you considering? The largest one that I know of is the PSD14 and that is 26X19X12. You don't think that this filter is large enough for your application?
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Robin Hood,

The PSD14 was close but still not enough, if I remember they had a even larger one but not sure what model, its been awhile since we were looking at the Donaldson stuff. I think we even looked at 2 of the PSD12 and that didn't work. I mean it would work and would work and better than a UMP can but it wasn't enough. The cool thing about the PSD line was it could be forced air, meaning we could have it face forward and ram the air into it.

Even the PSD14 is way too big to fit anywhere. without a long connection tube. Anything past 12" intake tube starts to fall off.

Donaldson has some cool stuff and they know whats up.

Mike
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
what about a 50 shot of nOs?, you know those slick little bottles of 'oxygen' that can be stashed Anywhere& the plumbing is ' invisible', road racers in spec type classes Never cheat....
 

cynicwanderer

Well-Known Member
at work in one of our sanding booths we have a large filter/screen. it has a mechanism that slams it every so often, which knocks off all the dust into a bin below it. I wonder if someone could come up with a ultra sonic filter shaker that cleans the dust off it when it gets overwhelmed. you could also have a warning light that comes on when the pressure diff on the filter becomes too large, indicating that the filter is getting clogged. you would activate the filter shaker and/or let you know if you need to change the filter at the next pit. i.e. before it adversely effects power too much or collapses and let's dirt get by.

another issue with the input plenum is that there will be resonances at different RPMs which sometimes enhance or restrict the flow, so it really needs to be evaluated with the engine on a dyno throughout the RPM range. typically the longer the plenum is, you get more low end and when it's short it favors high end. you're right, it's complex and when you add sharp turns, then each segment become another resonator and effects the system. of course, you could use this to your advantage and design the intake plenum to compensate for other factors in the engine, e.g. to get rid of a flat spot in the power band.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Many years ago, K&N did filters literally called 'Shakers'. They were like an inverted cone. The idea was that as the cars hit bumps and bounced, the dirt would fall off the filter and away from filter material below the area just cleared. I think I still have a couple.
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
This is from Muscle Car

Engine Air Capacity
We can’t make a cylinder hold more than its physical dimensions, but we can increase the density of the gas captured within it. Hence the terms air capacity, volumetric efficiency, and inertial ram tuning. The earth’s atmosphere does us the courtesy of providing 14.7 psi of pressure to fill the cylinders for free. In a perfect world, the engine would inhale the exact swept volume of all its cylinders every two revolutions of the crankshaft. That represents its theoretical or potential air capacity. The following formula is used to calculate it.

Air Capacitycfm = (displacement x RPM) ÷ (1,728 x 2)

Note that air capacity is a function of displacement (volumetric capacity) and engine speed (RPM). The displacement is divided by 1,728 (the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot) to convert it to cubic feet. The RPM is divided by 2 because the engine only intakes on every other revolution. The formula can be simplified as follows:

Air Capacitycfm = (displacement x RPM) ÷ 3,456

In practice this formula is often useful to calculate the engine air requirement at both peak torque and peak power. Why? Because we want to know the minimum requirement at peak torque or the point of highest efficiency. Then we want to establish the maximum requirement at peak power so we can determine the effective airflow range of the engine under wide open throttle (WOT) conditions.

Let’s calculate the airflow requirement for a 350-ci engine with a torque peak at 5,300 rpm and a maximum engine speed of 6,500 rpm. First the torque peak:

CFM = (350 x 5,300) ÷ 3,456 = 536 cfm at the torque peak
And then the power peak:

CFM = (350 x 6,500) ÷ 3,456 = 658 cfm at the power peak These are the engine’s theoretical air requirements if we didn’t have all sorts of interference and restriction from carburetor venturis and throttle plates, manifold runners, intake ports, valves, and so on.
 

Michael Cohen

Well-Known Member
Many years ago, K&N did filters literally called 'Shakers'. They were like an inverted cone. The idea was that as the cars hit bumps and bounced, the dirt would fall off the filter and away from filter material below the area just cleared. I think I still have a couple.
Yup! Used them w/ lots of success. Lee Leighton, my engine building Yoda master turned me onto them yeasr ago. They had an inner and an outer you could use as well.
 

Dezertpilot

Well-Known Member
Yup! Used them w/ lots of success. Lee Leighton, my engine building Yoda master turned me onto them yeasr ago. They had an inner and an outer you could use as well.
These still around?
 
Do you have more info on HM racing? I googled it and could not find any web site.

Sounds like a killer build.

I would go with 100 gallons if possible. Tank size really matters.

4.4" Fox bypasses will be amazing and the Camburg stuff is legit.

Mike
Late to the party here's a pic of the HM designed chassis. I should have the front suspension finish welded by the end of this month. I think from the cad file fuel cell should be around 103 gall with 98ish? usable. Lots of fun building this truck so far and learning a ton. Hope to have it a roller by end of Summer if everything goes as planned but we all know how that goes lol.
 

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