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7S motors

bpthirteen

Well-Known Member
Score is talking about changing the 7S rules again. Some teams with 3.0 liter motors want Score to change their rule back to a 3.0 liter format. Other teams that have already upgraded their program to the 4.3 liter rule don't want to go back. So, should we go back or keep it the way it is?
 

JCA

Well-Known Member
Fill out your profile and if you are a 7s owner get ahold of John B. and he will give you access to the 7s area of this board.

J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing
www.andrewsracing.com
 

jeff

Moderator
I don't own a 7S and don't ever plan on owning a 7S... but I say any stock displacement or (.060 over maximum) motor should be allowed in a stock class. That'd allow the Ford 4.0 and the Chevy 4.3, as well as the 3.4 Toyota, a Jeep 4.0 or 4.2 and just about every other stock pickup manufacturer motor available. Look at the old Dan Vance Ranger with it's 4-cyl (and almost total lack of power)... that thing hauled balls when it had to and embarassed some pretty big motor'd trucks. A huge motor doesn't win a race and either does an unlimited budget - think Herbst. How about instead mandating a fuel type for the stock classes? Not a specific brand, just a specific octane... keep the compression in the motors down and you won't need to spend huge bucks building a whizz-bang "gotta keep up with the Joneses" powerplant. Keeping the displacement at or below 3.0 liters seems like an unnecessary crutch. There are always going to be guys and gals that have the $$$ to outspend the rest of the field.

I say the bigger the better. Let someone spend the money to make a super-fast and over-powered 7S. The faster they go the more fun they are to watch.

Aloha
 

GMS739

Well-Known Member
I THINK WE SHOULD SAY WITH THE 4.3L BECAUSE THE GUYS THAT ARE RUNNING 4.3 ARE THE ONES THAT RACE THE COMPLETE SCORE SERIES AND THE ONES THAT RACE ONE OR TWO ARE THE ONES WHO WANT THE 3.0L.
I RUN A STOCK 4.0L IN MY RANGER IN 7s AND I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY IF WE HAVE TO CHANGE BACK TO 3.0L MOTORS I WILL BE OUT FOR A RACE OR TWO.I PLAN TO RACE THE WHO SCORE SERIES FOR THE POINTS

ED GONZALEZ
 

MNotary

Well-Known Member
Jeff, doesn't the "S" in 7S imply a "intermediate" class. They should be 4 cylinders and 10:1 compression.
 

jeff

Moderator
The "S" stands for stock.... as in stock production class. I think stock should mean whatever the truck comes stock with. If you want to run a Dodge Dakota with a 5.9L V8 I think you should be able to run the truck with the V8... but you don't see anyone running a Dakota so it's not a big deal. How about if someone wanted to run a 4.7L equipped Dakota? It's a V8 but not much bigger than the GM 4.3... on and on. It's just my opinion and everyone has one. Let's say you mandate that everyone run a 4-cylinder motor... what motor would I run if I had a Dodge vehicle? The Toyota 2.7L 4-cyl would have a pretty unfair advantage over a GM 2.2L 4-cyl... but most of the larger motors are pretty equal in terms of power to weight and are pretty cheap to build. Here's an idea... since this is a stock class how about requiring stock compression? Stock compression would lead to an unfair advantage for some domestic trucks that have larger engines... the 4-cyl guys would be forced to either upgrade or pull over and let everyone pass on the straights. Nothing is fair and that's life. If you have a 7S truck with a junkyard 4-cyl and another truck with a built 4-cyl that cost $15,000 to build... is that fair to the teams that don't have big budgets?

Like I said in my first post, I don't have a 7S, won't have a 7S, so the motor deal doesn't affect me. Where are all the 7S guys? Who cares what I say... it's the racers that we should be listening to.

Aloha
 

ntsqd

Well-Known Member
I can see it now. Claimer engines and everyone racing for fifth place.

I think they should be allowed to run what ever came in the truck stock, and then require an intake restrictor of one size for everybody. It might work. For it to work the sanctioning body would have to own them and distribute them at sign-up, and then collect them at the finish line. The 4 popper guy's engines won't even know it's there and the 4.3's bored and stroked to 458ci will be wheezing and gasping for breath.
I know Cup cars run restrictors on certain tracks and I know that those restrictor plate engines cost enough to fund most off roaders for a season, and I suspect that the off roaders with that kind of pocket book aren't racing 7S. So it just might level the field, for a while.

TS

"Teach you all I know and you're still stupid"
-- Howdy Lee
 

John Bitting

Administrator
The 7s guys are dealing with this issue on a private board setup on Race-Dezert. We have many private boards setup for different groups. Mini Metal, Pro-10, Protruck etc.. Dakotas cant run 7s because they are mid sized vehicles.. :)
 

MNotary

Well-Known Member
Being the factories don't care make it a Toyota class. Like everyone used a Pinto for ministock. I think a big v-6 or a small v-8 will break a bunch of stuff.
 

bpthirteen

Well-Known Member
just because the "7S" guys are talking about it on a private board, doesn't mean everyone else can't talk about it. ED732 is right. The guys who are complaining don't even race the whole Score season.
 

jeff

Moderator
Hey John... Here's a question for you... why would the old Dakota be considered a midsize?

The wheelbase of the 1989 Dakota regular cab is 111.9"
The wheelbase of the 1989 Ranger regular cab short bed is 107.9"

Weight of the two is within 115 pounds. Width is within 1.5" inches. Height is within 1" inch. Overall length is 9" inches more on the Dakota, and the Dakota is 7" inches longer than the S-10 regular cab. The trackwidth is about 3-4" inches more on the Dakota than the Ranger or S-10. Is this what makes it midsize? Keep in mind these numbers are all for the regular cab... with the extra cab trucks the numbers are even closer...

It seems pretty funny that the Dakota would be illegal in a 7S class simply because it's just a gnats ass bigger. Did anyone ever try to run a Dakota? Does anyone have a SCORE book handy that can post the specific requirements for 7S vehicles?

Aloha
 

bpthirteen

Well-Known Member
they let Walker race a Dakota in 8, so it doesn't seem like they would consider it a mini truck.
 

DMSRACE

Well-Known Member
bpthirteen, You have no idea what you are talking about. You don't even have your profile filled out. Would you go to a gunfight with a knife? You might but I won't. 7s was not designed for where it is at. If you run bigger motors, then you need bigger trannies, suspension, etc. If you want all the big stuff, go 7 open. 7s is like 1-2 1600 for trucks. I ran all of score last year except for the 1000 and I don't think the motor rule is right. And it is not complaining, it is getting a level playing field. Why don't you step up to the plate, spend $50-75,000 and go racing.

Kevin


Racer
 

Kritter

Krittro Campbell
Hey Bpthirteen why don’t you quit running your mouth with the keyboard and use it to fill out your profile? You have no credibility on this page, not only in my eyes but also in the view of many others.

If people want to run Big HP, more power to them (no pun intended) but run 7 open. If they want to up the anny that much then they should leave the “stock” class. There is no reason a stock mini truck class should have as much horsepower as a 4.3 can put out.

Oh yeah and BP13 you commented “The guys who are complaining don't even race the whole Score season”

Well we did race the whole Score season and no complaining here just trying to make sense of this. Heres the scenario: Team XYZ has a Chevy and spends 10K for XYZ horsepower but Team XYX has a Ford and has to spend 20K just to get in the ball park of the same horsepower as team XYZ. Now what kind of logic is that for a stock class?

Whereas with the old motor rule there was only so much that could be done to the engines available, hence making it “level” and the dollar per HP was about the same regardless of make. It just makes no sense to me why people think that dollar for dollar the 4.3L can be competed with because it can’t. If it could compete HP wise, there wouldn’t be any bitching regarding the rule because people would just drop the money into the 4L Ford and race, but in my opinion that motor is worthless. A 2.9 or 2.8 puts out the same HP when built properly as built 4.0 but none but an Esslinger can compete with a 4.3.

Just my opinion and that's it.

Kris


"A man with a watch knows what time it is; with two watches, he is never sure" Joseph E. Shigley
 

Kritter

Krittro Campbell
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I hope all you guys that stepped up to the "big motors" and think the new motor rule is good pray to God that the 4.3 breaks because the drag race they call laughlin is gonna be rough for any other "big V6" to compete with. My money is on S&S motorsports until the old rule is back and they are our competitors.

"Bringing a knife to a gunfight" summed it up nicely.


Kris

"A man with a watch knows what time it is; with two watches, he is never sure" Joseph E. Shigley
 

Prater

Well-Known Member
I think the problem with the Dakota is that is marketed as a mid-size pickup (I should know I have one). That's why when you do see them they are racing class 8 not 7.


-Prater<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Prater on 01/11/02 06:33 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
 

ORI

Well-Known Member
All of you guys whining about the motors is ridiculous. I'm here to say if the S stands for stock then why don't all of you rangers give up your C-4 Trannys and give up your Heimed radius arms. Then put the bed back in and go run Stone Stock Mini. But oh wait, even the stone stock minis have the big motors. Maybe SCORE should make a new class 7W, with the "W" standing for whiners.

Off-Road Insider
I know ALL!!!!!!!!
 

StandOnTheGas

Well-Known Member
"Bringing a knife to a gunfight" - Nice Kevin. OK, here is the straight scoop on the 7S engine rules. The class has always been for racers that don't have the money to go any faster. Cost containment has to be a factor when dealing with the engines. Right now the Chevy 4.3 costs less than a Ford to get the same HP. You can build a Ford that will run with the Chevy for about the same amount. However, the problem is the engine to start with never came in a Ford truck. The same can be said about the tall block 4 cylinder engine that is in the Joe Custer truck. That engine never came in a Ranger either. And what about the Toyota multi valve engine that comes in a Toyota but is not allowed to run in 7S? I am not pointing fingers or complaining. I am just trying to state the facts.

The idea is to get the maximum amount of entries and have competitive racing, right? So how do you do it?

After spending time with Bill Savage and Doug Siewert (S&S) two engine scenarios emerged as the most likely keep the cost down and keep the engine output similar without a major advantage one way or the other.

1) Go to a 2.5 liter engine with stock block and stock head.
2) Stay with the 4.3 engine size and mandate low octane or "pump gas"

I do not want to type all the reasons why these two are the most logical choices. I don't have that kind of time - I type slow. I will make a couple of points, however.

The Chevy guys say they can't find any more 2.9 liter engine parts.
The Ford guys can't get any more of the tall block 300 HP 4 cylinder engines.
The Chevy 4.3 will kill any Ford 4.0. The 4.0 cannot be made to produce that kind of output. The Ford 4.5 Busch engine could make the same kind of HP as the Chevy 4.3, but it never came in a Ranger. Nissan? Toyota? No V8 Dakotas in 7S!!!

I believe the low octane fuel mandate with the maximum size of 4.3 liters will work out best. It will allow stone stock trucks to move up and with any luck eliminate that class. The cost of building and maintaining an engine will go down. We will not have to put huge dollars into the transmission and chassis to handle the HP of a full race 4.3 liter engine. It will allow all manufactures to run at the same or close to the same engine size and output. Finally, and here is the big one, 76 fuel says they will put together a fuel program that will have a payback into just our class!

Oh, and one last thing. I'm bringing a scalpel to Laughlin. Better watch out Doug, Cory, Jarred and the rest. Looking forward to racing with all of you.

THROTTLE DOWN
 
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