Air Bags

Dave_G

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Re: "Its probably not as strong though."

Why?

;-)

Dave

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Brian Mapes

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I said "It's probably not as strong though becuase where the front end bolts to the rest of the truck and frame would probably be a weak point. I am not saying it isn't strong, I am just saying that I thought that it wouldn't be as strong as one full piece. I might be wrong.

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jwfab1

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Funco sandcars uses airbag shock absorbers. I think they are King.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pe7a077230053f2bd2e9af2d06af22d15/fcec6c5f.jpg>http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pe7a077230053f2bd2e9af2d06af22d15/fcec6c5f.jpg</A>
 

bajaruner11

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His name is Nye Frank, and yes the shocks do have a water jacket for coolant flow that in tern changes the shocks disposition. Also I have never heard of any trophy truck using air bags as of yet.
 

ACID_RAIN28

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If you get a chance to look at the truck at the laughlin race inspect his shocks, they are crazy. I have tried to break down the assymbly process but I get lost when it comes time to wrap the sleeve on it for the coolant. Also the engine collant is what runs through the shocks, good idea, but potentially hazerdous to the life of the car in a race, but then again it wouldn't be raceing if it were not that way.

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ntsqd

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The problem with using air as a spring medium is that your pre-load is going to change, rather radically compared to what we're used to in a coil spring, with temp. Which is why they go to such exotic lengths to cool the 'springs' and dampers. Would not suprise me to learn that Nye Frank's units don't have air in them, but rather have nitrogen in them.

TS

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rdc

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"If you get a chance to look at the truck at the Laughlin race inspect his shocks, they are crazy."

That truck hasn't been seen at a race in years, and it is my understanding that it was converted to coilover, and may have been wadded up and not repaired. Does anyone know where the truck is now?

"The problem with using air as a spring medium is that your pre-load is going to change, rather radically compared to what we're used to in a coil spring, with temp. Which is why they go to such exotic lengths to cool the 'springs' and dampers. Would not surprise me to learn that Nye Frank's units don't have air in them, but rather have nitrogen in them."

They definitely have Nitrogen in them, no one uses "air" in an race shock. The water jackets around the shocks are not only for cooling but are also used to heat them. In reality the goal is to get them to, and keep them at a certain operating temperature. When the Truck was rolled off the trailer it almost sat on the ground until the engine warmed up and the water temperature got in the normal operating range and heated the shock, expanding the shock, oil and Nitrogen thus raising the pressures to where they wanted them. Providing the proper "pre-load" and spring rate. They are also not just "springs," they have dampening, i.e. Oil, Piston, and Valving. Other than that the pressures were not adjustable on the fly. My understand is that on the short course truck which used a similar shocks, they actually used warming devices to bring them up to temperature before the race.
 

toddz

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the nye truck was the truck that i was referring to and was wondering how the set-up worked. I was told the truck was for sale. Anybody know anything about that? Who made the air bag/shocks?
_____________________________________________________________________________

The last time I saw the Nye Frank/MacCachren truck was at the SEMA Show in '01. Todd Clement owned it and had his Wide Open Baja decals all over it. The suspension was gone and he had solid tubing stuts in their place. Strictly a roller..... Don't know if Todd still owns it or not?

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elcaprerunner

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I do not know where the Rob Mac truck is now, or if it is now converted to coilovers. Nye Frank and Dave Clark built it, and Dave Clark also built Kyle Taylor's new Trophy Truck. They are the same design accept Kyle's was originally built with King coilover/bypass and Rob's was originally built Nye's air shocks. Other than that, they are the same design truck right down to the fiberglass, the only differance is the paint job. And yes, Kyle's truck does sit pretty damn low compared to some other TT's, even with coilovers. I have a picture of Rob's but I can not get it to work for the attachment, but maybe NOODLE can post it when he gets on later, he is the one who sent it to me. Dave and Nye also built Dondell's old class 1 which was sold to Riviera, and then they sold it but I don't know who bought it, but it was at contingency at the Vegas 200. It also uses Nye's air shocks.

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ACID_RAIN28

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foul, heating up nitrogen does not change pressure or desity i belive that is why they use it in tires for all road racing. because nitrogen is consitant. I know that the "air shocks" are not actually "air" but nitrogen. As for oil in them, wouldn't they be called just a shock then? Unless they were constructed in a two part system like so on the attatchment

.


Dave Clark and Nye built the Nick baldwin car that was 4wd with motor in the back and was red and what ever color. Dale traded nick for the car that won laughlin and then got rid of the 4wd car cause they couldn't get it to ride right, to much buck in the rear i belive. No idea where it is now, think he kept the motor and that is what is in the TT

Nye built the car that won laughlin. Mig welded chassis chevy v6

I don't know what truck you are refering to that hasn't seen a race in years, but I was refering to the new one that dale has, and has not seen a race yet, hence the term NEW. ALL around "nitrogen shocks" to be politicaly correct.

The water jackets keep the shocks cool and warm, thermal stasis in a sense.

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ACID_RAIN28

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In the attatchment I belive they are constructed in a two part system. one chamber is filled with the nitrogen giving it the spring feel to it, and then below is the oil part of the system. And if I can recall properly his shock bodies are long while having a short throw to them. I guess I could just ask nye and cut out all the BS.

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rdc

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Foul, I don't think so!

"heating up nitrogen does not change pressure or desity"

Heating or cooling any molecular structure should cause it to expand or contract, respectively. Re: Nitrogen, it can be cooled and compressed in to a liquid at one extreme that I am sure everyone is familiar with. Within the temperature ranges that a shock operates, N2 (Nitrogen Gas) is very stable and that is one reason why it is used. I would agree that it is primarily the expansion of the oil as it heats up, that compresses the Nitrogen charge and increases the pressure in the shock. As you can see below N (Nitrogen) is affected by heat or the loss of it.

Name: Nitrogen
Symbol: N
Atomic Number: 7
Atomic Mass: 14.00674 amu
Melting Point: -209.9 °C (63.250008 °K, -345.81998 °F)
Boiling Point: -195.8 °C (77.35 °K, -320.44 °F)

Nitrogen is also used because it restricts oxidation. If "Air" was used oxidation of the oil would be a real problem. Under the temperatures and pressure in a shock the oil would "burn" if oxygen were present. In fact over time shock oil does burn, because it is impossible to get all of the oxygen out of the shock and oil.

"As for oil in them, wouldn't they be called just a shock then? Unless they were constructed in a two part system"

I have never seen one of these Nye Frank shocks apart, but other racing "Air Shocks" that I am familiar with rely on the displacement of oil into a reservoir, by the volume of the shaft as it travels into the shock body. The displaced oil compresses the Nitrogen charge on the other side of a separator piston, increasing the pressure. Some racing Air Shocks are an "emulsion shock" with nothing separating the oil and Nitrogen charge, but the same prosperities apply. Because there are no other "standard shocks" on these Nye Frank setups, the Air Shock must be handling the dampening by passing oil through valuing.

"4wd car... No idea where it is now"

It is at Spirit Racing with a cracked trans case. Jimmy Nuckles(sp) (Previous ProTruck Champion) owns it.

I just looked at the drawing of your “two part system” it needs some more thought. Two questions: Where does the oil displaced by the shock shaft go or come from?
And: How will the oil pass through the “standard flow piston” if the “sealed piston” at the top of the shaft moves in tandem with it? No oil will pass through the piston.

It would by interesting to hear from Nye.
 

NOODLE

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Here is the pic of the Air Shock TT. I would not say it is identical to Taylors down to the fiberglass. i watched taylors fiberglass get massaged and the front end is one of a kind . Taylors TT does share some design with the Nye truck but it is not identical The suspension design is similiar but not exactly the same. Rather, improvements were made on a previous design.

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ACID_RAIN28

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My understanding.

Nitrogen is used in the shocks because of moisture issue.
Q. IF IT CHANGES MOLECULAR STRUCTURE WHEN UNDER DIFFEERNT HEAT AND PREASURE CONDITIONS, WHY DOES NASCAR USE IT IN THIER TIRES, AS WELL AS NHRA TEAMS.

I thought that the whole reason for the nitrogen was that it was more predictible than air, so that is why it is used in the indy, nascar, nhra tires. Recalling from a RPM tonight story long time ago, they said that nitrogen was used in the tires because that with the changes in temp the nitrogen would not change in pressure, ie expansion, i could be wrong though.

Some racing Air Shocks are an "emulsion shock" with nothing separating the oil and Nitrogen charge, but the same prosperities apply. You cannot mix nitro and oil togather, in bilstiens there is a seperator ring between the two chambers. they are asseymbled and then charged from the top with gas, then the top eyelet is welded in. This is true for all emulsion shocks i belive.

As for my picture, it was a small and quick 60 sec referance that I just made so that my thoughts could be followed. I am told that my mind is faster than my mouth or hands. I can provide you with a precise tenical drawing of it all. I just wanted to illistrate how it could be done, I have ponderd how for months and for some reason that came to me while reading your reply. I am pretty sure that is how it is done. excellent point on the seal piston problem.......ahh resevore at the bottom similar to smiths

last point, It was my understanding that shocks were pressureized to prevent airation of the oil, leading to piston cavitation and seal wear.

man my spelling needs some work sorry

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Kritter

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"I thought that the whole reason for the nitrogen was that it was more predictible than air"
dead nutz on the head....cant dial in somehting that is not predictable!

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redline

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from my understanding nitrogen is more predictable. But it still does expand and contract just it is not drastic as oxygen is. and also i agree that all air charged shocks have a dividing piston wether it is in the resevior on shock body (such as an emulsion) because other wise you would have cavitation.
 

ACID_RAIN28

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I am positve that it would expand and contract when reacting to different conditions, just not as severe as would air, which is no just one gas, but a mixture of junk matter as I call it. I will make a new techincal drawing of the shock and see if yall can follow my line, or correct the errors.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!
 
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