Any Engine Electronics Experts?

FABRICATOR

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Are there any electronic engine management experts here??? Need to know about building a powerful and reliable system. (P.S. not for smog or rice grinder)

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>
 

Eric_M

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what do you need done exacty?

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SDranger

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http://www.motec.com/

there's more companies but i cant think of them right now. I dont think that these ones are for rice only, they should handle any type of engine.

My buddies dad had an acell DFI in his 383 s/c trans am and it worked good, but i think that systems kinda old.

97 Ranger 4x4
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FABRICATOR

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Eric,
In simple terms, I would like to control fuel injection and ignition timing on a mildly tuned but large displacement V-8. Reliability is paramount along with instant throttle response, and a flat torque curve. One idea is to graft an LS1 management system onto a standard V8. The other is to use the LS1 coils with an MEFI 4 ECU (made by GM for Marine use. MEFI 3 comes on current 350 and 502 Chevy Ramjet engines). Fuel management would be by the same ECU and work with a twin 58 MM throttle body and a long, tuned runner manifold. The LS1 ECU is sort of a complicated animal and requires a ton of inputs, including mass air flow, O2, etc. Can it work without some of the inputs?? Or work with dummy inputs??

IMHO some OEM systems are more reliable than aftermarket. A simple crank trigger MSD ignition system is reliable and is OK for drag racing but has no timing advance. This has to be done with a second "magic" box. Same thing with EFI. A Holley or Accel EFI does'nt control ignition. More boxes. MSD has a new coil-per-cylinder system, and I suspect others will follow. This system is very expensive and does not provide for EFI. IMHO at this point, most of the aftermarket is years behind what the OEMs are doing in performance applications. Engineers at Delphi claim a 100% increase in power at the spark plugs just by putting the coils there, and with less power consumed. The system will run on as little as 8 volts and timing is very precise. I'm sure it can be done to work in an off-road racing environment, but I have not found anyone who has ventured into this stuff yet. There are some LS1s out there now in some Class 1 cars and they're not missing a beat.

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>
 

Jerry Zaiden

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Electro Motive = less expensive and very reliable.
Mo-Tec = very expensive but very high end system.

For your use Electromotive will work great!

Steve Dose at Lethal Does injection is the man. He wire wire it up in house. He also uses a chassis dyno to map in the system.

I have had the Electromotive system going on 3 years and not 1 problem. The new Tec 3 system does some amazing things.
 

AllwaysRcn

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Try Steve Dose of "Lethal Dose" fuel injection in El Cajon. I'll post the # tomorrow (it's at work)
 

ntsqd

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Chuck, We dyno'd one of those 502 RamJet's @ Ken's Automotive. That ECU is only just sophisticated enough to make the engine run. Wasn't too impressed with it.
Another aftermarket ECU to check out is: http://www.ronmorrisperformance.com, I think) has put them on all kinds of stuff.
If you really want to get into it: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html>http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html</A>

TS

I used swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.
 

partybarge_pilot

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I have the SDS set-up on the barge. It is easy to tune and extremly reliable. For the price, it was the best mod I've done to the (soon to be retired) hunk'o crap......
 

geoff

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I just tuned a car using the autronic ecu system for the first time. Its amazing, i am used to the FAST/speedpro system but this blows it away, and that system kicks major ass.

Ive seen th autronic used on a ton of rails lately and its now basically accepted as the new motec, so i would have no hesitation considering it, especially with its 1599 price tag.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka
 

geoff

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DFI gen 7 is sick, honestly, but it still cant compare to the autronic.

more than likely your dad has dfi 6 which is antiquated and doesnt use sequential, just bank to bank injection.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka
 

geoff

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Thats cool that you mention it, i just made a megasquirt for my 22r =) its really cool, and it took about 2 hours to make, then i plugged the sim card in and it checked out.

theres no ignition on it, however and its still just bank to bank (not bad on a 4cyl, but crappy on 8)

the sds doesnt really count on the grand scheme of serious programmable efi systems.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka
 

FABRICATOR

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Thank you for all the input. I am familiar with some of them but have'nt had time to check on all. It appears that a systems tunability and capability is much more important for an engine that will be expected to produce maximum output over a WIDE RPM range. I'll report back with my findings.

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>
 

drtdevil93

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geoff- why dont you like sds? you seem to know your stuff, and in this subject i dont, so id like to hear more about it. im just curious cause LC engineering recommended i use that system on my new motor, and they have nothing but good things to say about sds. by the way, im doing the fuel and distributorless ignition setup (stg. 3?). they mentioned 2 class 10 cars that have been running sds for 2 seasons without problems.

erik
 

DPpatrol

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geoff, talk to me about the megasquirt. I was looking into that a while ago just cause it looked cheap and fun. How reliable is it so far? How does the truck run now? Better? Worse? Same? how tuneable is the system? anything else?

jason
 

geoff

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I dont like the sds for a few reasons.

First whats good with it -
Cake to install
Easy to change values <albeit somewhat blindly changing them>
affordable
GREAT first efi system

What i dont like -
no wideband o2 sensor
no datalogging
no autotune
fair resolution of fuel / ignnition mapping, but a PAIN with only a handheld unit


If this is meant for a race truck, i think its basically going to a gunfight with a box cutter. If you have an engine that will be running at extremes for long periods (i cant think of a better example than desert racing) I do not feel this system will be able to provide a perfect mixture for your engine. The lack of a true wideband o2 sensor means that you will not be able to get an EXACT idea of your air fuel ratios. 5 wire o2 sensors are commonplace on modern standalone systems, and they also have the Autotune option.

Say at WOT and low vacuum levels you want an a/f ratio of 13.2. While racing, for whatever the reason, your engine is running at 14.4. As a result you are running lean, getting high EGTs, less power etc, although it may not be very noticeable, the engine is getting beat up. A system like SDS keeps the ratios at a lean-ish 14.4 whereas with a more modern system it will automatically change the values until the wideband o2 reads 13.2. It will automatically do this

Datalogging is extremely important becuase you will know exactly how well all the components of the engine are working. What maps you hit at what rpm, what the water temp was, what the throttle position was when it happened to break up? When you are trouble shooting nothing is more important than real datalogging.

The resolution is an issue becuase you can not physically see the fuel map or ignition timing curve map. When you can see the maps physically it is much easier to picture the advance./retard or fuel enrichment trends the engine will follow.

Overall i feel the SDS is lacking. If you want a simple as can be system it may work. However i know a guy who ran one on a toyota with a supra motor and did about 550whp in a setup that should have done around 800. There could be a number of factors contributing to this lowish number, but i would like to at least know it *wasnt* the efi, and thats not something i can be sure of.

On a race truck, take the time to research and if you need talk to a number of other people using the standalones. I can get you in touch with anyone on any of the systems and i can get the stuff at my cost if you need, just let me know. Talk to you later


"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka
 

geoff

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I built the system, just havent put it in my truck, i was swamped between getting ready for sema and school. When you purchase the system you have the option of buying a simcard which plugs in and basically is a diagnositc for the megasquirt. It checked out alright so it should be good to go.

I will put the megasquirt in my truck once i can finish fabbing my front end up. I have about 5 feet worth of tig welding left on it.

ive got a buddy who put one on a turbo honda and he really seems to like it, it seems to be a lot of fun and has worked without a problem for 1 1/2 years. It will work well on a 22r with a carb'd distrib. The driveability will be as good as the tuner. There is no reason it should be any worse than a carb, and if youre in the AZ area (i highly doubt it) id be happy to help tune it on a buddies chassis dyno. I have a motec wideband o2 i use on all the cars i tune and youre welcome to use it!

I hate carbs, cant adjust them and the carb on my yota drives me up the wall sometimes. I think im gonna have a party when i pull that thing off finally. There are just never enough hours in the day =(

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka
 
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