Are rules written to be negotiated?

Minesweeper

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I race desert as a driver owner these days. I did over twenty years working in the pro ranks. Class 8 and Trophy Truck in the 90s as well as Soda short course. I did NASCAR trucks the first two seasons they were formed. Moved on to Indycar, then back to Offroad and back to NASCAR. Finally doing a four year stint in road racing with some Daytona prototype and lemans teams.
In all those years and series when our cars were the slightest jot or tittle off the rule we would get penalized or DQed. I recall winning in our class at Sebring and the officials checking fuel capacity four times because another team suggested we were over capacity.
We passed scrutineering and were the official winner. I recall a meeting in 1994 at the track at a score race. Jon Nelson and Cal Wells pleading both sides of an argument to score about the headlight grille on a trophy truck. Raglands truck had the lower half cut off for ground clearance and it was at issue. The truck started the race with a full grille.
rules were rules. I consider myself a fair person. I follow the rules. When I have bent or stretched the rules it was quietly and with trepidation of getting caught. It seems nowadays if you bring enough hype or money to the show you’ll get case by case considerations.
Polaris and Can-Am have brought a lot of investment into the sport. I’m pretty sure we will see Honda and Kawasaki step up to production turbo cars soon. Factory production turbo. My concern is with the newcomer. 1000 units produced is the wording in utv world championships rule book. But with 0 produced the newcomer is entered in production turbo. Same rule book says driver of record must be 14. ( but case by case considerations can be made). If you bring enough hype to the series you can be 12. I’m not a Madmedia event fan. I feel it’s more about money than racing for them. I just don’t want to see BITD or the new Legacy series fall for the hype. When 1000 are produced the car will be tough to beat. I don’t think The Honda with a Jackson turbo kit should be allowed in SCORE. It’s not a production vehicle. For those who will surely post negativity about UTV’s, just consider it happening in your class. Because if allowed eventually it will. Money and hype can’t be a means to circumvent rules, Offroad will lose if it does. F1 and NASCAR are proof of what money and hype does to the rules and integrity.
I hope we can keep it out of the desert.
Rant over. Shred away!
 

cjohnson

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Yes. Rules are always negotiated and modified in all racing classes and sanctioning bodies to appease the big boys. The trick is to keep the rules fair enough the little guys have a shot at moving up. I think SCORE and BITD do a pretty good job of this.
 

SMS81

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Unfortunately, guess it all depends on the integrity of the promoter, it’s his business and will be run how he alone chooses. If you don’t like it, take your business elsewhere, it is all you can do.
 

Bricoop

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I 100% agree that the new UTV should not be in the class.
All of the vehicles in qualifying are XXs
The new vehicle may run a lap in the race, but likely won't. It shouldn't be included in the Production class.

Two seat vehicles built using a production two or four seat UTV. Any manufacture UTV may be used providing the model used has been series produced in a minimum of 1000 units within a twelve(12) month period. Maximum engine size 1000cc.

However the rules do acknowledge age limit considerations:

Minimum age for drivers in any Car/Truck class is 14 years old, must be 14 by the date of the event. Exceptions may be made on a case-by-case basis. Co-driver age is not restricted.
 
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Wicked Al

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I see two types of rules. One defines the category or class, the others define the specs of the vehicle in that class. Rules are general, negotiations are specific to find the edge you can run. If it doesn't fit in the general class, the class rules need to be rewritten in time for everyone to adjust to them. In other words, you don't allow a TT to run with the UTV even though the letter "T" is in both their vehicle types. As a racer, everything is subject to negotiation, as a promoter, changes should be heavily weighted on what's good for the sport.

With respect to age, there should be a hard rule for each step up in capability of vehicle being driven. It doesn't matter the physical capability of the youngster, it matters the mental maturity as they are making life and death decisions. Even with the speed of todays UTV's it needs to be strict and older.
 

NIKAL

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This is nothing new and has been going on for years. Each time a big company comes in to be a title sponsor or some sort of “Official” this or that. It happens. Ford was a big supporter or BITD and they got classes they wanted. Now the UTV brands are giving the promoters money & product and they too will get leeway. In another thread about pressurized fueling, it was said BITD had their own tech & safety look into them and suggested to Casey to not allow them. But Casey did not want to turn away a dozen big money TT teams that had them, so he allowed it.

Unfortunately off road racing will always be a hobby sport with a few big sponsors and a few making a living within the sport. And because of this the promoters will adjust the rules to fit those who are giving them a paycheck.

Bricoop, this weekends event has nothing to do with BITD. The UTV Nationals is a Mad Media event under their rules. This is why they are allowing Honda, Yamaha & Arctic Cat to race aftermarket turbos in the Pro Turbo class. Mad Media also feels Speed UTV met the manufacture requirements because they have taken enough pre order deposits and Dealer commitments.

I don’t know what Min age Mad Media is Requiring, but both Score & BITD have made a clause in their rules to allow someone under the age if they can show experience & skill. Back in the Day Fud would do the same. The New Years Race was famous for seeing kids get a lap with Dad.
 

cjohnson

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I 100% agree that the new UTV should not be in the class.
All of the vehicles in qualifying are XXs
The new vehicle may run a lap in the race, but likely won't. It shouldn't be included in the Production class.

Two seat vehicles built using a production two or four seat UTV. Any manufacture UTV may be used providing the model used has been series produced in a minimum of 1000 units within a twelve(12) month period. Maximum engine size 1000cc.

However the rules do acknowledge age limit considerations:

Minimum age for drivers in any Car/Truck class is 14 years old, must be 14 by the date of the event. Exceptions may be made on a case-by-case basis. Co-driver age is not restricted.
Are we talking the Honda Talon? It's a production UTV? Is the argument that Honda doesn't have a turbo model? I don't interpret the production turbo rules to mean that the car has to be produced with a manufacturer turbo setup. Lots of turbo cars have bigger modified turbos?
 

BigBlue&Goldie

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Fishgistics had the Honda guys, the Matlocks, and maybe a CanAm racer on a show to discuss this very topic. It boils down to the Polaris and CanAm guys don't think it's fair that their manufacturers have put in the money and development time into having a truly off the production line turbo machine, just to have Honda slap a turbo on their machine to race the class. Honda's guys felt their machine should be allowed as the turbo is an aftermarket "Honda" product that is installed at the dealer level.
 

Bricoop

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This is nothing new and has been going on for years. Each time a big company comes in to be a title sponsor or some sort of “Official” this or that. It happens. Ford was a big supporter or BITD and they got classes they wanted. Now the UTV brands are giving the promoters money & product and they too will get leeway. In another thread about pressurized fueling, it was said BITD had their own tech & safety look into them and suggested to Casey to not allow them. But Casey did not want to turn away a dozen big money TT teams that had them, so he allowed it.

Unfortunately off road racing will always be a hobby sport with a few big sponsors and a few making a living within the sport. And because of this the promoters will adjust the rules to fit those who are giving them a paycheck.

Bricoop, this weekends event has nothing to do with BITD. The UTV Nationals is a Mad Media event under their rules. This is why they are allowing Honda, Yamaha & Arctic Cat to race aftermarket turbos in the Pro Turbo class. Mad Media also feels Speed UTV met the manufacture requirements because they have taken enough pre order deposits and Dealer commitments.

I don’t know what Min age Mad Media is Requiring, but both Score & BITD have made a clause in their rules to allow someone under the age if they can show experience & skill. Back in the Day Fud would do the same. The New Years Race was famous for seeing kids get a lap with Dad.
Thanks for the clarrification. The rules I cited are from MM's webite.

They are allowing aftermarket turbos in the Production class? I'd be pissed if I followed all the rules only to show up to see my competitor was given an advantage. Especially if it affected my livlihood.
What's an engine claim cost?

UTR24 ENGINE and ENGINE DISPLACEMENT Maximum engine displacement is 1000cc. Engine must remain stock as delivered by the manufacturer. No engine parts may be modified or replaced. Air cleaners, air cleaner tubes, fuel injectors, header pipes, mufflers and clutches are open. Fuel pumps, fuel regulators, and fuel filters are open. Engine must remain in stock location.

Turbochargers and their components must remain stock as delivered by the manufacturer. Vehicles not turbocharged by the manufacturer are allowed to use turbo kits approved by UTVWC. All approved kits must remain stock as delivered by the manufacturer and all components must be used as delivered. Contact UTVWC for an approved kit list.
 
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cjohnson

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Thanks for the clarrification. The rules I cited are from MM's webite.

They are allowing aftermarket turbos in the Production class? I'd be pissed if I followed all the rules only to show up to see my competitor was given an advantage. Especially if it affected my livlihood.
What's an engine claim cost?
I highly doubt the Can-Am and Polaris factory backed teams are using a "production" turbo. The top Can-Am and Polaris turbo cars are pushing a lot of HP.
 

Bricoop

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I highly doubt the Can-Am and Polaris factory backed teams are using a "production" turbo. The top Can-Am and Polaris turbo cars are pushing a lot of HP.
I'm guessing they meant engine protest. Not engine claim? Could I take home a Matlock engine?

MGT15: Post-race impound of all finishing vehicles is at the discretion of the UTV World Championship. Impound time limit is one hour after the official finish of the race. The UTV World Championship will release vehicles earlier at its discretion. Vehicles involved in any type of protest, complaint, or engine claim will be held until after resolution of protest, complaint, or engine claim.
 

cjohnson

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For the record the Honda guys raced the UTV Unlimited class at the Baja 500, not Pro FI.
Honda racing ran the Mint 400 in the Pro Turbo class. V2R in unlimited so maybe some sanctioning bodies are letting it in and other aren't. There could be other reasons for this other than the turbo though.
 

Zambo

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I highly doubt the Can-Am and Polaris factory backed teams are using a "production" turbo. The top Can-Am and Polaris turbo cars are pushing a lot of HP.
I don't think that's true. Most of the high hp guys are drag racing each other up sand hills, not risking long distance endurance racing for a few more hp. Phil Blurton was pretty vocal about how his car uses a bone stock motor and tune. Maybe I'm wrong.
 

cjohnson

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I don't think that's true. Most of the high hp guys are drag racing each other up sand hills, not risking long distance endurance racing for a few more hp. Phil Blurton was pretty vocal about how his car uses a bone stock motor and tune. Maybe I'm wrong.
Everybody claims bone stock. Second oldest lie in the book. Lol! Top turbo UTV's are running 300+ HP. Not sand drag numbers but not "production" either.
 

sand shark

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I highly doubt the Can-Am and Polaris factory backed teams are using a "production" turbo. The top Can-Am and Polaris turbo cars are pushing a lot of HP.
Some of the turbo guys run tunes, which is allowed. Not hard to get good hp out of the motors with some tuning. No need to change out the turbos. With proper clutching and a tune the turbo UTVs will easily hit 92+ mph.

I have a 2018 Can Am X3 that started out as 172hp from the factory. I have a basic 91 octane tune and I am around 195hp. I run 32" tires and can hit 94mph.
 

cjohnson

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Some of the turbo guys run tunes, which is allowed. Not hard to get good hp out of the motors with some tuning. No need to change out the turbos. With proper clutching and a tune the turbo UTVs will easily hit 92+ mph.

I have a 2018 Can Am X3 that started out as 172hp from the factory. I have a basic 91 octane tune and I am around 195hp. I run 32" tires and can hit 94mph.
195 HP is a far cry from 300. Top UTVs are 100+ MPH.
 

sand shark

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195 HP is a far cry from 300. Top UTVs are 100+ MPH.
The Speed UTV that is 300hp is on a E85 tune. To me the 300hp version is more for the dunes, then for racing. The 91 octane model is 220-225hp. The Polaris and Can Am guys are running race gas tunes so they are pushing 220 - 240hp or more. They also clutch the cars for higher top speeds.

In BITD and SCORE RG will be racing in the unlimited class until he produces 1000 units. At the rate things are going I don't see them getting 1000 units done before the end of the year. The allegedly have a lot of pre-orders and a dealer network set up. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.

He was behind the design and development of the Wildcat XX, which he is racing this weekend with his kid.
 

Bricoop

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The Speed UTV that is 300hp is on a E85 tune. To me the 300hp version is more for the dunes, then for racing. The 91 octane model is 220-225hp. The Polaris and Can Am guys are running race gas tunes so they are pushing 220 - 240hp or more. They also clutch the cars for higher top speeds.

In BITD and SCORE RG will be racing in the unlimited class until he produces 1000 units. At the rate things are going I don't see them getting 1000 units done before the end of the year. The allegedly have a lot of pre-orders and a dealer network set up. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.

He was behind the design and development of the Wildcat XX, which he is racing this weekend with his kid.
Why wouldn’t they race with 300 or more hp if they could do so reliably?
 

cjohnson

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The Speed UTV that is 300hp is on a E85 tune. To me the 300hp version is more for the dunes, then for racing. The 91 octane model is 220-225hp. The Polaris and Can Am guys are running race gas tunes so they are pushing 220 - 240hp or more. They also clutch the cars for higher top speeds.

In BITD and SCORE RG will be racing in the unlimited class until he produces 1000 units. At the rate things are going I don't see them getting 1000 units done before the end of the year. The allegedly have a lot of pre-orders and a dealer network set up. It will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.

He was behind the design and development of the Wildcat XX, which he is racing this weekend with his kid.
All the HP levels you mention require turbo upgrades so what is your point? The fasted dune Can-Am Maverick X3s are pushing 400-600HP. Huge turbos.
 
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