Are rules written to be negotiated?

cjohnson

Well-Known Member
Posts
131
Reaction
124
There are chips that will put you at those levels, combined with the "open items" they are definitely seeing those numbers. As far as the Speed utv, it has a reported 300hp on E85 out of the box(and the warranty).
[/QUOTE]
Post a link for a 240+ HP tune that doesn't require turbo mods. I will gladly buy it for my X3.
 

450grl

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,421
Reaction
571
Everybody claims bone stock. Second oldest lie in the book. Lol! Top turbo UTV's are running 300+ HP. Not sand drag numbers but not "production" either.
Running 300HP in a desert race UTV is dumb if that's not close to stock.......most top desert racers don't do that. They get their suspension setup dialed and do the testing to be sure they don't have mechanicals - high HP and a strung out turbo/motor will only get you to a DNF faster in desert racing - generally speaking.
 

cjohnson

Well-Known Member
Posts
131
Reaction
124
Running 300HP in a desert race UTV is dumb if that's not close to stock.......most top desert racers don't do that. They get their suspension setup dialed and do the testing to be sure they don't have mechanicals - high HP and a strung out turbo/motor will only get you to a DNF faster in desert racing - generally speaking.
Is 800 HP in a trophy truck dumb? Is a high compression 1835 dumb? Is a ported and polished CR500 dumb? Yes, it almost killed me. All top desert racers are always balancing reliability and HP. There is a high percentage of DNFs because you have to push the limits to win.
 

Zambo

Well-Known Member
Posts
4,426
Reaction
2,281
At the end of the day if you want the wheels to accelerate faster you still gotta pull harder on that same old belt. Plus it seems like it would be pretty easy to check competitors to see if they are running stock turbos, its not like you have to take apart the engine or anything. If building the cars bigger badder and stronger was the key then the "unlimited" UTVs would be kicking ass but almost none of them are as fast as the production classes.
 

JerryB

Well-Known Member
Posts
84
Reaction
102
I have no dog in this particular fight.... "today" as I'm not racing the worlds, however, I can guarantee I wouldn't stand by and keep my mouth shut at a BITD, Legacy or any other event im entered in if they were to ignore a clearly written, unambiguous, no room for interpretation, etc. RULE, not a suggestion, but a RULE that says to be in the class your vehicle must have 1000 units "produced" to qualify. The word produced is about as clear as it can get. It doesn't mean deposits taken, or cad design completed, it means they have been built and are sitting on tires. Mad media has a reputation for being in it just for the money. Is it true? I have no idea, I've never spoken to them, but this does appear to contribute to the reputation, if they're allowing the speed to race in pro turbo since they have PRODUCED ZERO CARS. Honda does not sell a talon from the factory with a turbo, its an add on so looking at the rule, in my opinion it doesn't meet the spirit nor intent of the rule.

I'm not trying to bash RG, but I've been in the sport since 92, I've seen and heard all the stories, this wouldn't be the first time rules have been bent, broken, bought or ignored for him, and to be fair, others.

As far as the age limit, the rule does allow for discretion. I do not agree a 12 year old has the mental maturity or capacity to make the right decision when we're racing door to door, nose to tail. Again that's my opinion.

Yes mad media owns the series and its their prerogative to bend or sell the rules. And yes it's my choice to patronize another series. Which is what I have done and will continue to do so.
 

JerryB

Well-Known Member
Posts
84
Reaction
102
Is 800 HP in a trophy truck dumb? Is a high compression 1835 dumb? Is a ported and polished CR500 dumb? Yes, it almost killed me. All top desert racers are always balancing reliability and HP. There is a high percentage of DNFs because you have to push the limits to win.
Stick to the topic. The question was about a promoter bending or ignoring their own rules.
 

johndjmix

Well-Known Member
Posts
956
Reaction
870
Let them in, guys...its honda here. Lets let them get more into the sport rather than hold them up on a "non factory" turbo.

On another note, most of us that dont race UTV's have them for prerun/fun use and realize how fast they are stock. If i was to race my X3, im not sure i would want another 100 HP. Is having 500 HP on your UTV really going to help you win races? More like help you break more parts! More parts broken, more chance for failures of just about every component. Suspension...yes, i want every bit i can get...but for a light UTV going up to 300 or 400 HP.....maybe not the best idea for reliability. Sure would be fun tho to play with!

--John
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
Some of the turbo guys run tunes, which is allowed. Not hard to get good hp out of the motors with some tuning. No need to change out the turbos. With proper clutching and a tune the turbo UTVs will easily hit 92+ mph.

I have a 2018 Can Am X3 that started out as 172hp from the factory. I have a basic 91 octane tune and I am around 195hp. I run 32" tires and can hit 94mph.
butt 300 hp is Much better for new guy jackRabbit
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
desert racing falls into 2 catagorys, first& most important, the true racer hardcore dedicated do whatever it takes racer( me), & the buissnes side, gotta get that podium picture for the world wide corporate bottom line, ( im looking at you ford), rules dont matter a week later after protests and penalties, as long as your said to be the winner That Day
 

cjohnson

Well-Known Member
Posts
131
Reaction
124
Let them in, guys...its honda here. Lets let them get more into the sport rather than hold them up on a "non factory" turbo.

On another note, most of us that dont race UTV's have them for prerun/fun use and realize how fast they are stock. If i was to race my X3, im not sure i would want another 100 HP. Is having 500 HP on your UTV really going to help you win races? More like help you break more parts! More parts broken, more chance for failures of just about every component. Suspension...yes, i want every bit i can get...but for a light UTV going up to 300 or 400 HP.....maybe not the best idea for reliability. Sure would be fun tho to play with!

--John
Don't want to side track this thread again but I have raced an X3 in SCORE and BITD. Race your X3 in the Pro UTV FI class then get back to me about that extra 100 HP.
Let them in, guys...its honda here. Lets let them get more into the sport rather than hold them up on a "non factory" turbo.

On another note, most of us that dont race UTV's have them for prerun/fun use and realize how fast they are stock. If i was to race my X3, im not sure i would want another 100 HP. Is having 500 HP on your UTV really going to help you win races? More like help you break more parts! More parts broken, more chance for failures of just about every component. Suspension...yes, i want every bit i can get...but for a light UTV going up to 300 or 400 HP.....maybe not the best idea for reliability. Sure would be fun tho to play with!

--John
With all due respect go race your X3 and get back to me about that extra 100HP. I've been racing X3s in SCORE, BITD, and the Mint since 2017. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but a stock X3 is nothing compared to a race prepped UTV.
 

JerryB

Well-Known Member
Posts
84
Reaction
102
Let them in, guys...its honda here. Lets let them get more into the sport rather than hold them up on a "non factory" turbo.

On another note, most of us that dont race UTV's have them for prerun/fun use and realize how fast they are stock. If i was to race my X3, im not sure i would want another 100 HP. Is having 500 HP on your UTV really going to help you win races? More like help you break more parts! More parts broken, more chance for failures of just about every component. Suspension...yes, i want every bit i can get...but for a light UTV going up to 300 or 400 HP.....maybe not the best idea for reliability. Sure would be fun tho to play with!

--John
It's about the rules John. We all, at least everyone I've spoken with, look forward to more manufacturers getting into the class....it's good for all of us and pushes the manufacturers to innovate and improve their cars to try and maintain their seat at the top of the hill. But until they comply with the rule, or the promoter changes the rule, follow it.

There's been a lot of talk this year about rules (not specifically utv rules), prerunning, spec motors, underdrives, tire size, class owners being sole suppliers of parts, fueling procedures, etc. All of these conversations eventually come to the same conclusion, if there's a rule in place then it needs to be followed. Don't like the rule, try to get it changed. A competitor fails to adhere to a rule, he or she is penalized, fined, disqualified or banned. If a promoter fails to adhere to a rule, what is the remedy? Really nothing as they aren't going to fine themselves. All we, the racers who pay the bills can do, is choose to race with a different series.
To say just ignore the rules or enforce them selectively is not the answer and every racer reading this knows that.

Jerry
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
It's about the rules John. We all, at least everyone I've spoken with, look forward to more manufacturers getting into the class....it's good for all of us and pushes the manufacturers to innovate and improve their cars to try and maintain their seat at the top of the hill. But until they comply with the rule, or the promoter changes the rule, follow it.

There's been a lot of talk this year about rules (not specifically utv rules), prerunning, spec motors, underdrives, tire size, class owners being sole suppliers of parts, fueling procedures, etc. All of these conversations eventually come to the same conclusion, if there's a rule in place then it needs to be followed. Don't like the rule, try to get it changed. A competitor fails to adhere to a rule, he or she is penalized, fined, disqualified or banned. If a promoter fails to adhere to a rule, what is the remedy? Really nothing as they aren't going to fine themselves. All we, the racers who pay the bills can do, is choose to race with a different series.
To say just ignore the rules or enforce them selectively is not the answer and every racer reading this knows that.

Jerry
you want rules?, go race scca& try to ' interpret ' the book', see what happens!!,
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,790
Reaction
1,422
I highly doubt the Can-Am and Polaris factory backed teams are using a "production" turbo. The top Can-Am and Polaris turbo cars are pushing a lot of HP.
Everybody claims bone stock. Second oldest lie in the book. Lol! Top turbo UTV's are running 300+ HP. Not sand drag numbers but not "production" either.
Don't want to side track this thread again but I have raced an X3 in Score and BITD and the Mint since 2017.

With all due respect go race your X3 and get back to me about that extra 100HP. I've been racing X3s in SCORE, BITD, and the Mint since 2017. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but a stock X3 is nothing compared to a race prepped UTV.

So you say you race a X3 in Score & BITD? Then you should know the Pro Turbo class rules. The engines & turbos have to be Factory stock, and have to be sealed & tagged by BITD to be legal. Even replacement engines have to be untouched in the factory sealed crate for BITD to tag for that engine to be legal. If the engine is found To be tampered with. You can be disqualified, fined or suspended from the series.

You can reflash the OEM ECU, but no aftermarket or replacement ECU’s are allowed.
Only modifications allowed are, Air cleaner, air tubes, fuel injectors, header pipes, exhaust pipes, muffler and clutch can be changed and or modified. Turbochargers must be OEM stock. No modifications or changes are allowed.

So do you want to share how a 195 hp Can Am is making 100 more hp? Your saying these guys are getting close to 300 hp?
 

cjohnson

Well-Known Member
Posts
131
Reaction
124
So you say you race a X3 in Score & BITD? Then you should know the Pro Turbo class rules. The engines & turbos have to be Factory stock, and have to be sealed & tagged by BITD to be legal. Even replacement engines have to be untouched in the factory sealed crate for BITD to tag for that engine to be legal. If the engine is found To be tampered with. You can be disqualified, fined or suspended from the series.

You can reflash the OEM ECU, but no aftermarket or replacement ECU’s are allowed.
Only modifications allowed are, Air cleaner, air tubes, fuel injectors, header pipes, exhaust pipes, muffler and clutch can be changed and or modified. Turbochargers must be OEM stock. No modifications or changes are allowed.

So do you want to share how a 195 hp Can Am is making 100 more hp? Your saying these guys are getting close to 300 hp?
I race Unlimited so I don't know the Pro turbo class rules that well. I stand corrected. Now that you point it out I see BITD did implement a sealed engine and turbo rule in 2018 for Pro UTV FI. So Can-Am and Polaris may or may not be able to get that HP level. I couldn't find a similar rule for SCORE though? Maybe I'm missing it?

In that case I can see how Can-Am and Polaris would be opposed to Honda competing with an aftermarket turbo in BITD pro turbo even if it is a dealer add on. With the new information then I would have to rethink my position and say Honda should not be allow to race pro turbo until they manufacture a turbo car. They could race in unlimited. I would be happy to race with them.
 
Last edited:

43mod

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,414
Reaction
2,755
Lol. John races a spec truck but wants other classes w spec rules to ignore them. If we race my speed unit it should only be after unit 1000 is delivered. Big guys dont need favors.
 

ColeA

Well-Known Member
Posts
307
Reaction
89
There's a PROduction turbo and PROduction 1000 (non turbo) classes for a reason....

Yes Honda in the sport is good but until they have a production turbo car they should either;
1) race in unlimited with their aftermarket turbo like they have been doing except for worlds( which in the rules states that UTWC can approve a kit, so in this case is legal)
2) pull their turbo kit off and race in production 1000

Also I know this thread came out before the weekend of racing but it should be noted that robby did not race the new car. however it did show up not in time for qualifying so if it showed up in time for qualifying would he have raced it? who knows, but most likely haha
 
Top