Are rules written to be negotiated?

dan200

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To answer the OP question. Absolutely rules are made to negotiate. Generally the group or person with the most money gets the most say in those negotiations.

Dan,

I agree. No reason a brand new team with zero experience can line up and race against the pros. The difference between the top 10 and the bottom 10 in UTV is huge. Really the same in most larger groups. Even with 6100 there is a large difference between rookie and the top 5. When we first started we were in the way of the fast guys, I felt bad for them to have to race against us while racing against the actual top guys. we were simply in the way and caused more risk than the fast guys.

But the reality is our sport is made up of hobbyist. We are not revenue racing so we will never have many pro teams. There are like 2% of the teams that are professional and make a living out of it. And all of those started as hobbyist. The rest do it for fun with their spare money and spare time. :)

Not sure what this thread became about UTV's. There must be something I missed.


UTV's are just buggies with 4x4 and rubber bands as drivetrain.

Mike
1. Nobody is gonna turn away customers so everyone is gonna have a ton of classes. It would be up to the drivers to know where they belong.

2. Not all the UTVs are belt cars now. Talon and the Yamaha aren't. Earlier Dave posted "what is a UTV ?" I'm wondering if this will eventually fracture things more(belt vs non belt.) (I am betting one day 4wd and 2wd trophy trucks get split into separate classes) I also wonder that if the speed UTVs are gonna be such a game changer with all the power they are claiming that enough people will be bummed they have a car that is very disadvantaged power wise and want a class for just those.

3. All threads on RDC eventually become about UTV's.
 

sand shark

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Multiple UTV classes are dumb.

But then again, what is a UTV?
1. Nobody is gonna turn away customers so everyone is gonna have a ton of classes. It would be up to the drivers to know where they belong.

2. Not all the UTVs are belt cars now. Talon and the Yamaha aren't. Earlier Dave posted "what is a UTV ?" I'm wondering if this will eventually fracture things more(belt vs non belt.) (I am betting one day 4wd and 2wd trophy trucks get split into separate classes) I also wonder that if the speed UTVs are gonna be such a game changer with all the power they are claiming that enough people will be bummed they have a car that is very disadvantaged power wise and want a class for just those.

3. All threads on RDC eventually become about UTV's.

The non-belt UTVs have not proven to have an advantage in desert racing. Most of the belt UTVs are well clutched and rarely break a belt. Plus on long races they have designated belt changes at some of the pits. I do not think the Speed UTV have an advantage because of the hp. The suspension set up will be the advantage and even that will be minimal. They have to keep the car together to finish a race. Until the Speed UTVs start consistently finishing races and are winning or on the podium it is just a perceived advantage based on the razzle dazzle presentation by RG.

Kristin Matlock has proven several times in Baja huge HP is not needed to win. Also the Can Am X3 and Polaris Turbo with a tune, new injectors and running race gas can make good reliable hp that has been proven to finish and win desert races.

If Robby wants to race his Speed UTV in BITD and SCORE he will have to race in the unlimited class until he meets the production class rules. Same goes for the Honda Talon with an aftermarket turbo. Yamaha is a lost cause unless you race short course.
 

dan200

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The non-belt UTVs have not proven to have an advantage in desert racing. Most of the belt UTVs are well clutched and rarely break a belt. Plus on long races they have designated belt changes at some of the pits. I do not think the Speed UTV have an advantage because of the hp. The suspension set up will be the advantage and even that will be minimal. They have to keep the car together to finish a race. Until the Speed UTVs start consistently finishing races and are winning or on the podium it is just a perceived advantage based on the razzle dazzle presentation by RG.

Kristin Matlock has proven several times in Baja huge HP is not needed to win. Also the Can Am X3 and Polaris Turbo with a tune, new injectors and running race gas can make good reliable hp that has been proven to finish and win desert races.

If Robby wants to race his Speed UTV in BITD and SCORE he will have to race in the unlimited class until he meets the production class rules. Same goes for the Honda Talon with an aftermarket turbo. Yamaha is a lost cause unless you race short course.
I agree with most of what you said but I sell a LOT of belts (Trackside) for it to be a thing that "Rarely breaks". At a minimum they are a wear item and have scheduled mid race swaps. A vehicle without that drawback will have an advantage. Seconds matter.

Time will tell with what Robby is bringing to the table.
 

sand shark

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I agree with most of what you said but I sell a LOT of belts (Trackside) for it to be a thing that "Rarely breaks". At a minimum they are a wear item and have scheduled mid race swaps. A vehicle without that drawback will have an advantage. Seconds matter.

Time will tell with what Robby is bringing to the table.

The non-belt UTVS have not proven their worth in desert racing. The Honda Talon is still having growing pains and will be sorted out. But until Honda puts a turbo from the factory it is just an Unlimited class UTV.

Most of the top teams rarely have belt issue and as you stated have mid race swaps scheduled. You rarely hear of the top teams having belt issues. Maybe Wayne can chime in and give us some insight.

Robby is bringing a UTV to the table that is belt driven. I know once you get to a certain hp range in the dunes belts tend to snap more. At 300hp and a heavy race UTV = testing the limits of the belt.
 

43mod

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I forgot class 9 cars.
Probably more race utv cars alive today than all the TT,8,pro trucks and 6100s ever built. Cant forget old guy TT as well. May as well
Mention class 6,7,7s,7sx,7f,7200,2000etc etc. I just cant see why there is an issue w having a small number of utv classes.
 

dan200

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FWIW my original point was that the utv classes are, well, there is a ton of them. And I am betting there will eventually be more. What a UTV actually is has not been really been defined. Mostly, the chassis and motor that define a class (example 1600/5-1600). In this case we have a category. Then it fractures. unlimited/production/turbo/whatever. But the type of motor/drive belt/sequential is still mixed per class but all within the same category. What I am betting is that eventually the belt cars and no belts will be fractured apart. "WHAT IS A UTV?" Is it a belt motor? or any offrroad golf kart? or? OR??

The non-belt UTVS have not proven their worth in desert racing. The Honda Talon is still having growing pains and will be sorted out. But until Honda puts a turbo from the factory it is just an Unlimited class UTV.
I am part of the Honda Ridgeline team. The Talon program runs under that umbrella. And you're absolutely right. There's growing pains but they are close to being sorted out. Honda wanted to race the biggest class against the best drivers but the turbo being non factory doesn't allow us to be in that class. The sponsor contract requires that we run a turbo so we're doin what the factory wants. The Talon pre runners are what raced at worlds last weekend BTW. And one of the race talons took 2nd IIRC at the 500.

Most of the top teams rarely have belt issue and as you stated have mid race swaps scheduled. You rarely hear of the top teams having belt issues. Maybe Wayne can chime in and give us some insight.
You stated it they have mid race belt swaps scheduled. I agreed. A belt is a wear item that is prone to fail. Not for everybody but enough that they have a lot of spares on hand and like you said. Scheduled stops to swap em. To me, that is a disadvantage.

Robby is bringing a UTV to the table that is belt driven. I know once you get to a certain hp range in the dunes belts tend to snap more. At 300hp and a heavy race UTV = testing the limits of the belt.
I agree that power ain't everything but it helps. I also think that belts are a weakpoint and i think robby agrees.

POLARIS puts big pressure on series with sponsorship dollars. CAN Am does a bit as well. If ( i am saying IF) the belt cars start getting smoked by the newer non belt cars ya think they polaris isn't gonna want their own classes?

So who decides what a UTV is? The Folks family? Dave? the Martellis? Polaris? Honda?

WHAT IS A UTV?
 

jon coleman

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Kristen Matlock just won the 500 in an NA car, from the back.

If we took all the UTVs out racing today there would be one huge class. Dunno if that's the best thing or not.

ME- Id like to see the slower drivers (not the slower cars) run in the smaller series and the faster dudes run in the bigger ones.
like road racing, you gotta do school& pass, get your required regional races, to go from regional license to national license, then you have to do certain number of national races to get your scca pro license, then your racing with the Real pro drivers, ive diced w national level drivers, holy guacamole!!, the speed you gotta step up to in the same class is scary, good idea that Green nooby should finish TWO local races, thats finish, then you can race bk1,( i know, cant turn down ca$h entry fee ....)
 

jon coleman

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FWIW my original point was that the utv classes are, well, there is a ton of them. And I am betting there will eventually be more. What a UTV actually is has not been really been defined. Mostly, the chassis and motor that define a class (example 1600/5-1600). In this case we have a category. Then it fractures. unlimited/production/turbo/whatever. But the type of motor/drive belt/sequential is still mixed per class but all within the same category. What I am betting is that eventually the belt cars and no belts will be fractured apart. "WHAT IS A UTV?" Is it a belt motor? or any offrroad golf kart? or? OR??

I am part of the Honda Ridgeline team. The Talon program runs under that umbrella. And you're absolutely right. There's growing pains but they are close to being sorted out. Honda wanted to race the biggest class against the best drivers but the turbo being non factory doesn't allow us to be in that class. The sponsor contract requires that we run a turbo so we're doin what the factory wants. The Talon pre runners are what raced at worlds last weekend BTW. And one of the race talons took 2nd IIRC at the 500.

You stated it they have mid race belt swaps scheduled. I agreed. A belt is a wear item that is prone to fail. Not for everybody but enough that they have a lot of spares on hand and like you said. Scheduled stops to swap em. To me, that is a disadvantage.

I agree that power ain't everything but it helps. I also think that belts are a weakpoint and i think robby agrees.

POLARIS puts big pressure on series with sponsorship dollars. CAN Am does a bit as well. If ( i am saying IF) the belt cars start getting smoked by the newer non belt cars ya think they polaris isn't gonna want their own classes?

So who decides what a UTV is? The Folks family? Dave? the Martellis? Polaris? Honda?

WHAT IS A UTV?
if it can haul a bail of hay, its utilitarian( edit just herd on the radio Conchata Ferrell just past away, ' Berta' on Two & a 1/2 men, i liked her character the most on that show, everyone needs to have a 'Berta 'in there life to keep ones self in check, she checked that looooooser charlie harper every DAY!!!, RIP
 
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sand shark

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FWIW my original point was that the utv classes are, well, there is a ton of them. And I am betting there will eventually be more. What a UTV actually is has not been really been defined. Mostly, the chassis and motor that define a class (example 1600/5-1600). In this case we have a category. Then it fractures. unlimited/production/turbo/whatever. But the type of motor/drive belt/sequential is still mixed per class but all within the same category. What I am betting is that eventually the belt cars and no belts will be fractured apart. "WHAT IS A UTV?" Is it a belt motor? or any offrroad golf kart? or? OR??

I am part of the Honda Ridgeline team. The Talon program runs under that umbrella. And you're absolutely right. There's growing pains but they are close to being sorted out. Honda wanted to race the biggest class against the best drivers but the turbo being non factory doesn't allow us to be in that class. The sponsor contract requires that we run a turbo so we're doin what the factory wants. The Talon pre runners are what raced at worlds last weekend BTW. And one of the race talons took 2nd IIRC at the 500.

You stated it they have mid race belt swaps scheduled. I agreed. A belt is a wear item that is prone to fail. Not for everybody but enough that they have a lot of spares on hand and like you said. Scheduled stops to swap em. To me, that is a disadvantage.

I agree that power ain't everything but it helps. I also think that belts are a weakpoint and i think robby agrees.

POLARIS puts big pressure on series with sponsorship dollars. CAN Am does a bit as well. If ( i am saying IF) the belt cars start getting smoked by the newer non belt cars ya think they polaris isn't gonna want their own classes?

So who decides what a UTV is? The Folks family? Dave? the Martellis? Polaris? Honda?

WHAT IS A UTV?

The race Talon's are pretty damn sweet. To bad Honda did not design something close to what you are racing. I have high hopes for the Honda race UTV. I really wish they would just smack a turbo on it from the factory so they can race in the Turbo production class.

I am waiting to see if Kawi jumps in the n/a class.

When the turbo UTVs first hit the market it created an issue for the class. The turbo class was born once both Can Am and Polaris offered factory turbos. The class has remained the same other than they now allow you to get into the ECU and tune them. The unlimited class is for the non-production UTVs turbo and non-turbo. Production non-turbo class. SCORE and BITD has sportsman classes for some for the races to allow others to race in what is much more of true production class and you basically are allowed safety items and that is it.

Only the UTV championship has multiple classes as they are bringing in desert, short course and WORCs racers.
 

dan200

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The race Talon's are pretty damn sweet. To bad Honda did not design something close to what you are racing. I have high hopes for the Honda race UTV. I really wish they would just smack a turbo on it from the factory so they can race in the Turbo production class.
I wish it was a factory one also. And the one that's on it will be rebranded as the factory turbo when honda approves it. This takes time so dont expect it tomorrow. One thing to keep in mind is that Honda is a AUTO MANUFACTURER. They only make calculated and proven products and they over test. Thats why every Honda product is low maintenance and long lasting. From a civic to a portable generator, Honda only makes good stuff.

Remember when all those 1000 turbos burnt to the ground? Imagine a scandal like that for Honda. The eighties lawsuit of the three wheeler was enough for them I think.

FWIW, they aren't entered in the production turbo class BUT that is who we are scoring ourselves against.
 

Zambo

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FWIW my original point was that the utv classes are, well, there is a ton of them. And I am betting there will eventually be more. What a UTV actually is has not been really been defined. Mostly, the chassis and motor that define a class (example 1600/5-1600). In this case we have a category. Then it fractures. unlimited/production/turbo/whatever. But the type of motor/drive belt/sequential is still mixed per class but all within the same category. What I am betting is that eventually the belt cars and no belts will be fractured apart. "WHAT IS A UTV?" Is it a belt motor? or any offrroad golf kart? or? OR??

I am part of the Honda Ridgeline team. The Talon program runs under that umbrella. And you're absolutely right. There's growing pains but they are close to being sorted out. Honda wanted to race the biggest class against the best drivers but the turbo being non factory doesn't allow us to be in that class. The sponsor contract requires that we run a turbo so we're doin what the factory wants. The Talon pre runners are what raced at worlds last weekend BTW. And one of the race talons took 2nd IIRC at the 500.

You stated it they have mid race belt swaps scheduled. I agreed. A belt is a wear item that is prone to fail. Not for everybody but enough that they have a lot of spares on hand and like you said. Scheduled stops to swap em. To me, that is a disadvantage.

I agree that power ain't everything but it helps. I also think that belts are a weakpoint and i think robby agrees.

POLARIS puts big pressure on series with sponsorship dollars. CAN Am does a bit as well. If ( i am saying IF) the belt cars start getting smoked by the newer non belt cars ya think they polaris isn't gonna want their own classes?

So who decides what a UTV is? The Folks family? Dave? the Martellis? Polaris? Honda?

WHAT IS A UTV?
I've asked this same question a bunch mainly when I see the "unlimited" builds, which are mostly just crappy class 10 cars. To me a UTV is a mass produced buggy and should be raced as such with very defined limits on modifications. Strengthen the frame with gussets and weld washers etc? Yes. Control arms that can be mass produced and bolted on any stock model without changing knuckles, axles, etc? Yes. Modifying the geometry or the drivetrain? No.
 

NIKAL

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I would say the definition of what a UTV would need to be too race is; Mass produced and offered to the public as a recreational vehicle. Engine no larger then 1000cc, AWD and must have two seats. Other then those 4 defined specs a UTV is whatever the manufacture wants to build.

I‘d like to see some form of organized committee that reviews the class rules to make sure it’s balanced and that the playing field is not swayed to give an advantage to a particular brand. Maybe one person that represents each brand, and two people who don’t race and have no relationship or influence from a manufacture. This could also help set a standard set of rules that all series would follow. (What a concept!) Right now the BITD Rule maker & tech director also races In the class and is supported by Can Am.

Examples are not allowing non factory turbos race within the Turbo class in all series. Or non produced wheelbase cars to race in a Pro class. In the Score Stock production UTV class (btw I think is a great class to showcase a true production UTV) the rules say suspension must remain stock as delivered from the manufacture. Then they changed the rules to allow Polaris and Can Am replace the rear radius rods with aftermarket parts. Problem is you just allowed two brands to replace their weakest link which is also 50% of the rear suspension. How is that fair to a manufacture who built a different design, good or bad?
 

sand shark

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I wish it was a factory one also. And the one that's on it will be rebranded as the factory turbo when honda approves it. This takes time so dont expect it tomorrow. One thing to keep in mind is that Honda is a AUTO MANUFACTURER. They only make calculated and proven products and they over test. Thats why every Honda product is low maintenance and long lasting. From a civic to a portable generator, Honda only makes good stuff.

Remember when all those 1000 turbos burnt to the ground? Imagine a scandal like that for Honda. The eighties lawsuit of the three wheeler was enough for them I think.

FWIW, they aren't entered in the production turbo class BUT that is who we are scoring ourselves against.

All the Japanese companies are conservative when it comes to UTVs. Hopefully in a few years Honda and Kawi will change there minds and throw a factory turbo. The good news is with so many non-turbo sport UTVs to choose from the pricing is much better. It is funny the Japanese companies have no issue putting in turbos or superchargers in their watercraft.
 

wayne matlock

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Wayne, Being that the Matlock team also runs in the N/A class and the engine rules are much more open vs the Turbo class. Can you share what you guys can do to those motors. Are you still running stock internals or do you open them up and upgrade some parts?

Speaking with another team last year they had mentioned it was cheaper to run in the turbo class as the motors are 100% stock besides tunes, header etc vs. the N/A class where you can open up and get in the engines.
Both of our motors are 100% stock, we take them out of the box and go racing. we have tried built motors in her car but kept having issues. She does not like letting off the throttle and keeps that thing wound out round 8,500 RPM from start to finish. Built motors just did not hold up to that. Not saying anything bad about the motor builders out there, but it just wasn't worth the hassle for us.
 
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