Are rules written to be negotiated?

NIKAL

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Both of our motors are 100% stock, we take them out of the box and go racing. we have tried built motors in her car but kept having issues. She does not like letting off the throttle and keeps that thing wound out round 8,500 RPM from start to finish. Built motors just did not hold up to that. Not saying anything bad about the motor builders out there, but it just wasn't worth the hassle for us.

Wayne,
Thanks for explaining. It makes it that more impressive what you & Kristen are doing. Also debunks some of the people saying these turbos are getting 100 more hp over stock or you need 100 more hp to be competitive.
 

wayne matlock

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Wayne,
Thanks for explaining. It makes it that more impressive what you & Kristen are doing. Also debunks some of the people saying these turbos are getting 100 more hp over stock or you need 100 more hp to be competitive.
Yeah, most of my Polaris teammates in the turbo class run 100% stock power train and do not add any power through the ECU. I can't speak for the Can-Am guys, though I doubt they are adding huge power. Reliability is the name of the game in desert!!!
Kristen passed every UTV in the field, and did it with 60% less horsepower than the turbo cars. Baja has never been about HP. It's about preparation, setup, and doing your homework to make sure you are on point for race day.
 

jon coleman

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Yeah, most of my Polaris teammates in the turbo class run 100% stock power train and do not add any power through the ECU. I can't speak for the Can-Am guys, though I doubt they are adding huge power. Reliability is the name of the game in desert!!!
Kristen passed every UTV in the field, and did it with 60% less horsepower than the turbo cars. Baja has never been about HP. It's about preparation, setup, and doing your homework to make sure you are on point for race day.
and buying dinner for the prep guys
 

cjohnson

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Wayne,
Thanks for explaining. It makes it that more impressive what you & Kristen are doing. Also debunks some of the people saying these turbos are getting 100 more hp over stock or you need 100 more hp to be competitive.
I already said I was mistaken. I had some info I thought was reliable from my experience and info I had from other reputable Can-Am teams. Forget I said anything. Thanks for setting the record straight.
 

ibismojo

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The non-belt UTVS have not proven their worth in desert racing. The Honda Talon is still having growing pains and will be sorted out. But until Honda puts a turbo from the factory it is just an Unlimited class UTV.

Most of the top teams rarely have belt issue and as you stated have mid race swaps scheduled. You rarely hear of the top teams having belt issues. Maybe Wayne can chime in and give us some insight.

Robby is bringing a UTV to the table that is belt driven. I know once you get to a certain hp range in the dunes belts tend to snap more. At 300hp and a heavy race UTV = testing the limits of the belt.

Which Honda Talon and what growing pains are you referring to?
 

dan200

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Which Honda Talon and what growing pains are you referring to?
Probably the Factory team because he nmentioned the turbo deal.

FWIW one of the factory Talons took the SCORE championship and the RACECO Talon won the 1000 until a missed VCP penalized them and took away the win

(I think the Raceco woulda had the overall UTV also but I may be wrong.)
 

NIKAL

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Probably the Factory team because he nmentioned the turbo deal.

FWIW one of the factory Talons took the SCORE championship and the RACECO Talon won the 1000 until a missed VCP penalized them and took away the win

(I think the Raceco woulda had the overall UTV also but I may be wrong.)

Dan when you say one of the Factory Talons took the Score Championship, that might look good on paper for Honda. But realize that Championship was based on two races and only 3 teams actually did both races. And the Talon was the only one to finish both. So while finishing is an accomplishment, winning the Championship in a class of 3 entries is not. Most would agree that this class should be removed if car count is a factor, as so many think it should be.

I think the Factory Honda team and Honda Corp should embrace the fact they don’t build a turbo car, and race in the N/A class. IMO the Talon would gain more respect as a race vehicle, and team if they did. The Raceco guys did this and gained way more respect then the Factory team has for their accomplishments.

And Yes without the penalty the Raceco N/A Honda would have won overall UTV at the 1000.
 

dan200

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Dan when you say one of the Factory Talons took the Score Championship, that might look good on paper for Honda. But realize that Championship was based on two races and only 3 teams actually did both races. And the Talon was the only one to finish both. So while finishing is an accomplishment, winning the Championship in a class of 3 entries is not. Most would agree that this class should be removed if car count is a factor, as so many think it should be.

I think the Factory Honda team and Honda Corp should embrace the fact they don’t build a turbo car, and race in the N/A class. IMO the Talon would gain more respect as a race vehicle, and team if they did. The Raceco guys did this and gained way more respect then the Factory team has for their accomplishments.

And Yes without the penalty the Raceco N/A Honda would have won overall UTV at the 1000.
I ain't denying any of that. A 2020 Score championship isn't exactly the coolest thing ever won. Especially in that class. BUT it is certainly gonna sell a lot of golf carts and that keeps the funding coming in. The deals that are made with Honda and our team principle are way over my paygrade. But it is what it is. I just carry tires around for rich people. Also, were keeping the trophy LOL.

FWIW I am on the Truck team and the Talons have a whole separate crew. We share resources but on race day my responsibilities are for the truck. And i wish we had more competition in the truck also. In my head, I pretend we took a rear start in 6100 and the pulled over and let all the ten cars go by and the we got on the gas. Ya know, to make it fair. (wink)
 

JDDurfey

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When a company uses an accomplishment for a sales pitch the general public doesn't go out and research to see the facts. If the Ford Bronco had won the Baja 1000 IN ITS CLASS this year you know the Ford head line would be "Ford Bronco wins the Baja 1000" We all would know the truth...the Bronco "won its class" And to top it off, the race Bronco holds little in common with the street version that is being marketed.

Honda used to do it year after year with the bike team. "Johnny Campbell wins the Baja 1000 on a XR 650" And while I applaud all of Honda's success in Baja, it does come with an asterisk to some degree since there really was no other manufacturer involved in Baja for many years. And what happened when Kawasaki and KTM started supporting riders in Baja again? Honda got beat or got a good run for their money.

And we all know that anytime a fiberglass bodied TT looking like a Raptor wins a race and it is announced that a Ford Raptor won is a load of crap. A TT and a Raptor have nothing in common.

So it doesn't surprise me when I see marketing angles like this.
 

sand shark

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Which Honda Talon and what growing pains are you referring to?
The Proctor Talons is what I am referring to. With the turbo set up they have and the overall set up of the car there is no reason they should not be running up front with the factor turbo cars for overall UTV wins.

The Raceco Talon doing what they did was quite an accomplishment. Hopefully it will inspire more to race the Talon in the n/a class. Honda would should be putting in a factory effort in the n/a UTV class. That might make Kawi jump in and maybe Yamaha. It would make the class a lot better.
 

dan200

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The Proctor Talons is what I am referring to. With the turbo set up they have and the overall set up of the car there is no reason they should not be running up front with the factor turbo cars for overall UTV wins.
The turbo set up isn't the giant power maker everyone thinks it is. Power wise the talons are on par with the other MFGs in the factory turbo class. It takes a bit of time for the Honda corporate guys to allow anything to have a Honda name on the part. It needs years and years of being proven. This NON HONDA turbo will be the HONDA Turbo eventually. Part of the talon race program is that we are testing these things so Honda can have bulletproof production vehicles for the general public.
 

sand shark

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The turbo set up isn't the giant power maker everyone thinks it is. Power wise the talons are on par with the other MFGs in the factory turbo class. It takes a bit of time for the Honda corporate guys to allow anything to have a Honda name on the part. It needs years and years of being proven. This NON HONDA turbo will be the HONDA Turbo eventually. Part of the talon race program is that we are testing these things so Honda can have bulletproof production vehicles for the general public.
I get they are using the team as the test mules. Hopefully Honda throws the turbo in the Talon in the next year or so. The Talon is a great set up drive train wise and will more power from a turbo would be a lot more fun to drive.

Is the HP with a turbo in in the 180hp range?

Why not put a car in the n/a class and go have fun beating up Polaris.

At least you will have some competition in the unlimited class with the Speed UTV. He will be racing that Speed UTV in that class in less he magically comes up with some production vehicles before the race year.
 

dan200

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I get they are using the team as the test mules. Hopefully Honda throws the turbo in the Talon in the next year or so. The Talon is a great set up drive train wise and will more power from a turbo would be a lot more fun to drive.

Is the HP with a turbo in in the 180hp range?

Why not put a car in the n/a class and go have fun beating up Polaris.

At least you will have some competition in the unlimited class with the Speed UTV. He will be racing that Speed UTV in that class in less he magically comes up with some production vehicles before the race year.
I am unsure of the exact power numbers. I knew them at one point but i forget. Your close though. I remember thinking were dead on for comparable to the Polaris factory turbos. There was a fishgistics show about all this and the boss was on it with the heavy hitter UTV guys and they went all through this. Its a good episode. (They all are)

In the end, for whatever reason our Team owner has a contract where he is required to run a turbo vehicle. Why? Thats wayyyyy over my pay grade.

For a new platform, completely fresh builds, and a giant amount of crew/drivers/codogs added to the mix I think we did OK for our first year. All the haters are certainly gonna hate us more and we run the 2021 season with a lot of polish on an already great squad.

Both Talons and the Ridgeline will be at KOH competing...
 

ibismojo

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The Proctor Talons is what I am referring to. With the turbo set up they have and the overall set up of the car there is no reason they should not be running up front with the factor turbo cars for overall UTV wins.

The Raceco Talon doing what they did was quite an accomplishment. Hopefully it will inspire more to race the Talon in the n/a class. Honda would should be putting in a factory effort in the n/a UTV class. That might make Kawi jump in and maybe Yamaha. It would make the class a lot better.

My friend and I just ran 700 race miles out in the desert (D38) this past year in his Talon (finishing first in the stock class for the season), competing against Polaris, Can-Am's, Textrons (those fast fockers lol), and Yamaha's. We had no problems (as in things that could have prevented us from getting points in the standings) in our Talons in those 100 mile races. We did break a spring perch in one (still finished), but that was a rather brutal course, and I'm pretty sure we were overspurng. We did develop a leak in the front diff after our penultimate race, otherwise the drivetrain has been reliable. Our best finishes, 2nd and 3rd overall, came in September/October with desert temps near or at 100F. We were slightly down on power due to the hot air but never had problems with our drivetrain breaking or overheating, unlike some of the other UTV's.

With Raceo's great showing at the Baja 1000, I can't find many (if any) reasons on the n/a Talon not being worthy for desert racing. It's a great vehicle, and Honda's factory driver, Elliott Watson, has shown it to be pretty quick too.
 

sand shark

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My friend and I just ran 700 race miles out in the desert (D38) this past year in his Talon (finishing first in the stock class for the season), competing against Polaris, Can-Am's, Textrons (those fast fockers lol), and Yamaha's. We had no problems (as in things that could have prevented us from getting points in the standings) in our Talons in those 100 mile races. We did break a spring perch in one (still finished), but that was a rather brutal course, and I'm pretty sure we were overspurng. We did develop a leak in the front diff after our penultimate race, otherwise the drivetrain has been reliable. Our best finishes, 2nd and 3rd overall, came in September/October with desert temps near or at 100F. We were slightly down on power due to the hot air but never had problems with our drivetrain breaking or overheating, unlike some of the other UTV's.

With Raceo's great showing at the Baja 1000, I can't find many (if any) reasons on the n/a Talon not being worthy for desert racing. It's a great vehicle, and Honda's factory driver, Elliott Watson, has shown it to be pretty quick too.

I agree it is race worthy and I am hoping to see more desert race Talons. Honda builds great motors and drive trains. The suspension set up also seems to be decent to get it to ride well in desert. Yamaha has been a disappointment in desert racing. From what I have seen the Yamaha suspension does not do well in the rough stuff compared to the other manufactures. Great motor, but the suspension appears to be geared more toward short course.

The Kawi would be a great desert racing platform, but the seem to have limited the motor with the clutch set up they use.
 
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