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Can dying classes be revived?

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Another VW engine class not talked about is class 12. This class started as a place for the original class 10 VW / Beam cars to go, when class 10 became all about a-arms & water pumpers. Then class 12 became so popular, that new purpose built class 12 cars were being built by top builders.

So where did class 12 go? Is it the beam or VW engines? Was it the progression of the 12 guys moving up, and the lack of limited 1600, 5/16 and newbies not moving up to class 12?

Where did class 12 go?
 

Ol' Curmudgeon

RDC's resident crackpot
16 car is a real race car, drive it slow and it aint, the utv is new guy - hard to get stuck- easyier to chug through a twisty canyon- heres the kicker, new guy can just finance it , stash it in the back, go to sxs store w- credit card to buy off the shelf parts that seem to brake on schedule, 16 is a real race program, shop, fab, prep, gotta drive em wfo to be in top third, thats intimidating to a new racer, hell, Im intimidated by those 16 racers, they dont lift...
(Quoted so I could "like" it again.)
 

misterktm

Well-Known Member
I have always wondered why there isn't a entry level 4 banger truck class (there is, but the rules create a fixed cost rather than competitive costs due to the rules package). Say an Ibeam ranger chassis with any manufacturer's 4 cylinder motor and the body must match the engine package. 35" tires (any manufacturer) and single coilovers per corner (3.0 rear and front, 14" travel at both ends. and limit wheel travel to 16-18" max. Pump Gas! Many fab shops could offer base chassis (cost would be pretty cheap) and shock, wheel, and tire manufacturers would compete for their tire on your ride. Something similar to the IMCA format in roundyround. Because those can built very easily by garage guys at home, they are. Very similar to the stock mini type racers at Lucas. Kids can afford something like this. Kids can't afford $30k+ for a base UTV and the accompanying parts needed to go racing. Maybe their dads can, but they would be better off putting the kid in a 1600!

Jee....Oh never mind, I give up.....
 

Rocket 450

Well-Known Member
I have always wondered why there isn't a entry level 4 banger truck class (there is, but the rules create a fixed cost rather than competitive costs due to the rules package). Say an Ibeam ranger chassis with any manufacturer's 4 cylinder motor and the body must match the engine package. 35" tires (any manufacturer) and single coilovers per corner (3.0 rear and front, 14" travel at both ends. and limit wheel travel to 16-18" max. Pump Gas! Many fab shops could offer base chassis (cost would be pretty cheap) and shock, wheel, and tire manufacturers would compete for their tire on your ride. Something similar to the IMCA format in roundyround. Because those can built very easily by garage guys at home, they are. Very similar to the stock mini type racers at Lucas. Kids can afford something like this. Kids can't afford $30k+ for a base UTV and the accompanying parts needed to go racing. Maybe their dads can, but they would be better off putting the kid in a 1600!
Ive had this almost same idea in my head for years, probably because this the background i came from . Only difference is I always thought a A-arm truggy platform would be the way to go. Engine set way back simple 3& 4 link set up rear end. 9in rear end. Anybody reminder Formula Toy. You could buy a fully welded cage that bolted right on to a stock Toyota chassis. Now that would be the hot ticket, even a pre bent cage a home builder could weld up.Single Shock front and rear. Way easier to work on than a truck and money savings not having to purchase fiberglass panels. Now if someone took the time to make Plastic panels now that would be a game changer.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Ive had this almost same idea in my head for years, probably because this the background i came from . Only difference is I always thought a A-arm truggy platform would be the way to go. Engine set way back simple 3& 4 link set up rear end. 9in rear end. Anybody reminder Formula Toy. You could buy a fully welded cage that bolted right on to a stock Toyota chassis. Now that would be the hot ticket, even a pre bent cage a home builder could weld up.Single Shock front and rear. Way easier to work on than a truck and money savings not having to purchase fiberglass panels. Now if someone took the time to make Plastic panels now that would be a game changer.
But Trucks offer more better options for sponsorship. And putting glass or plastic bodies on them would allow older chassis to upgrade to newer bodies to stay updated. Seems very simple. It would be just as easy to work on as a 'truggy', with the only added need to remove the body panels.
 

TRichards

Well-Known Member
But Trucks offer more better options for sponsorship. And putting glass or plastic bodies on them would allow older chassis to upgrade to newer bodies to stay updated. Seems very simple. It would be just as easy to work on as a 'truggy', with the only added need to remove the body panels.
Why change it? Race it like it is. Why spend more money and cut up a perfectly good race truck. Everybody has a hard on about 4 links and center mount this and that. Then you are at square one again about how much it costs. If you are starting out. Buy a buggy or a truck. Make it mechanically sound and go and race it in the class it fits. Learn to prep, get experience, learn to drive a race car in a race. Then move up when you know more. Also, There are few sponsorships unless you own a business or your friend does. You might get some help and if you do you are one of the lucky ones. Treat them like gold.
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
Speaking of the dead, I’m a huge Class 3 fan. Never had as many entries as other truck classes, and with JeepSpeed getting the eligible Jeeps, it’s suffering.
I don’t have any easy answers to cure the problem. I worked for ten years to get the suspension rules changed in Score, but it appears to be a little late to help.
 

92OCHO

Member
Speaking of the dead, I’m a huge Class 3 fan. Never had as many entries as other truck classes, and with JeepSpeed getting the eligible Jeeps, it’s suffering.
I don’t have any easy answers to cure the problem. I worked for ten years to get the suspension rules changed in Score, but it appears to be a little late to help.
Man
Class 3... so I started a father son project seven..... yep seven... years ago. Moss brothers inspired 79 Bronco.
Well u know the rest of the story.... still sits in the garage. I’ll never admit to the money that’s involved.
But it sure sounds good when she fires up... not much to look at
But worth the time with my boys. I would hope to finish some day.
I guess I’m way better at purchasing finished projectS than starting them.

Have all the respect for the people that have the talent to start ... finish ... and see them to the starting line.
 

RedRide

Well-Known Member
Its not though. lol Can't believe we are going over this again... 50-100k for a competitive UTV or 25k for a ready to win 1600 car. I can race a ton of races off that extra cash. 1600 Is alive and well. Just not in BITD where there is NO bonus and little to no payback. New cars are being built literally all the time. Comedy to see people ask if they are. Talk about not paying attention... They just had over 15 of them in baja this weekend. At two different races. Almost 20 at the recent Snore/More race. How people honestly think racing UTV is more affordable is beyond me when the price difference is so high to even get started.You don't even get out the door for 30k let alone building one into a race car. Looking forward to racing against 50 or so cars at Rage this year in the most competitive class the sport has. 1600 Baby!! All the questions asked above can be answered by simply visiting the 1600 group. Want a new car? Its there. Want an old one? Its there. I'd say 50k would build a brand new 1600 car. But why do that when you can get an old one ready to win for 25k? My cars almost 40 years old and runs up front. New is not needed. Where as with a UTV it for damn sure is. Racing 1600 is still cheaper. 1/2 1600 racers
I hear what your saying, but I think it’s misleading. The cost to enter may be low, but the maintenance/prep is through the roof since there are no “off the shelf” parts. If you need a new set of arms, you gotta get get them custom fabbed. Not to mention the motor and trans bills, again must be done in by custom/boutique outfit. That’s my personal experience owning and prepping both.
 

WhiteYota

Well-Known Member
class 2000 in MORE/SNORE is pretty affordable as an entry level home garage class. Its like 1450 was back in the MDR days for the most part. A guy won the night race with a single cab 22re toyota with a total chaos kit(single coilover) and deavers out back. Most of the 1450/1400 guys around today are still like me and run there program out of there garages. Granted there are some pretty high end guys in the game now as well with big budgets and get there trucks prepped
 

BajaFand

Well-Known Member
class 2000 in MORE/SNORE is pretty affordable as an entry level home garage class. Its like 1450 was back in the MDR days for the most part. A guy won the night race with a single cab 22re toyota with a total chaos kit(single coilover) and deavers out back. Most of the 1450/1400 guys around today are still like me and run there program out of there garages. Granted there are some pretty high end guys in the game now as well with big budgets and get there trucks prepped
I was going to bring this up actually. How many racers does SNORE usually get in this class? SCORE and BITD have both adopted this class in basically the same form (if not, just slightly different) but fail to get very many entries. SCORE gets pretty much zero entries for this class. BITD has pretty much gotten rid of traditional 7s and replaced it with this format that they call 7100. The seem to get a few entries per year (5-7 average I’d guess) but they also run a limited schedule (3 races) and I believe they ran as sportsman so the good part is they only pay sportsman entry fees which is similar to the same as JeepSpeed. Still this class seems to not gain much popularity as well and it seems the promoters have done all they can to keep it budget minded.
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
Can’t you guys see the problem?

It’s all this socialist diversity and exclusivity you guys are desiring that is the problem.

So you say; What?

Well look at the problem. Classes are dying and we have a thread about it to discuss the issue.

Any one in here thinking and suggesting that a “new, class with this and that will fix off road racing is kind of the problem. Class started dying when new classes came out. Tt killed 8, 6100 killed 1, 1450 killed 7s and 7u and on and on.

New classes and more classes are the problem.

I think the to fix it would be to go back to the basics with the rules. But I also don’t see that happening.

Most people seem to like the “everyone gets a participation trophy” idea for their new class created for diversity and exclusivity.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Josh, I hear you. I think 7s, with a little control on the motor rule, would have been a great entry level class. Once they started letting the big (larger then 3 liters) engines in the class, then the costs go to the next class up level and you might as well be running in 7 open. The only thing I dislike about 2000 is the engine rule. Trucks should run with what they cam with. Allowing someone to run a V8 in a little truck makes it wrong. Again, no limits on money spent on power plant means someone will step in and ruin that option for everyone else.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
I was going to bring this up actually. How many racers does SNORE usually get in this class? SCORE and BITD have both adopted this class in basically the same form (if not, just slightly different) but fail to get very many entries. SCORE gets pretty much zero entries for this class. BITD has pretty much gotten rid of traditional 7s and replaced it with this format that they call 7100. The seem to get a few entries per year (5-7 average I’d guess) but they also run a limited schedule (3 races) and I believe they ran as sportsman so the good part is they only pay sportsman entry fees which is similar to the same as JeepSpeed. Still this class seems to not gain much popularity as well and it seems the promoters have done all they can to keep it budget minded.
There is a bit of difference between the two, for what it's worth. 7100 in BITD is basically traditional 7S/7100 but with long travel. Still stock motor V6. 2000 is is basically open front suspension, open motor, with leaf springs

2000, like 1450, tends to get really good turn out at the casino races, but less good for the rest of the races. When the racers get together and target a race (like a MORE race when MORE offers a bonus for winning the class) they are able to scrape together a good mix too. But outside of BAP and RATR in SNORE, the rest of the races tend to not have much turn out. With 7100, I'd say cost is probably the biggest factor. It's hard to convince bare bones budget guys racing a leaf springer to pay $1300 to enter a BITD race when they know they can go race a SNORE race for $450. You can race a full SNORE season for the same entry cost as two of the three 7100 races in BITD. Not apples to apples in my opinion...racing a few laps at the night race in Barstow in 2000 is not the same as racing 500+ miles for Vegas to Reno, but again the cost threshold is an issue.

I think 7100 could still be viable if it were able to adopt a kind of Jeepspeed hybrid model. Conceptually, a Jeepspeed for everything that's not a Jeep basically. I think the 3 race series with sportsman entry helps make participating about as affordable as you can make it for BITD. If someone were able to organize it and get a couple of key industry sponsors (tires, lights, wheels, suspension, etc) and create a season ending incentive....cash, product, etc...it would help spark some motivation to race the full 3 race series. Race all 3 races and the winner at the end gets a cash pot plus a nice haul of product voucher or whatever...I think that could help tip the scales and balance out the cost difference versus racing in SNORE/MORE. What 7100 is missing is someone to lead that charge.

Again maybe I'm a dreamer/optimist but I actually think it's really doable. 7100/7S used to thrive thanks to factory involvement but that money is likely never coming back. Manufacturers just don't market that way any more. But there is still plenty of room for aftermarket companies that sell product to the prerunner/overland type community that could reasonably be persuaded to get involved in supporting a "semi" stock production truck class. Someone just needs to be able to put together that business case and do the leg work to make the connections.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Josh, I hear you. I think 7s, with a little control on the motor rule, would have been a great entry level class. Once they started letting the big (larger then 3 liters) engines in the class, then the costs go to the next class up level and you might as well be running in 7 open. The only thing I dislike about 2000 is the engine rule. Trucks should run with what they cam with. Allowing someone to run a V8 in a little truck makes it wrong. Again, no limits on money spent on power plant means someone will step in and ruin that option for everyone else.
Agreed 1000x. I personally would say it's a little unfair to say that 1450 ruined 7S. There were a lot of factors in my opinion, including motor rule changes like you mentioned. Not to mention the rapid growth of aftermarket products. The ability to hit up a garage fab buddy or run to anyone of a handful of companies and get a bolt on long travel kit made the effort to maintain a stock suspension mini truck difficult to justify. Point being, there were a handful of factors that led to 7S/7100 being less desirable in my opinion, not just the advent of a "new" class.

Also totally agree about the motor thing. Water under the bridge now but we had some pretty bitter debates about it all years ago. At the end of the day the folks involved at SNORE basically envisioned 2000 as a leaf sprung 1450 class. I understand the thought process and in some ways it has helped the class in that it allowed a wider range of folks to be able to enter. BUT...I agree that allowing V8s in the minis was a watershed moment that ensured that the class was going to spiral. Aside from a random 4 banger or V6 winning a race here and there, the majority of trucks in 2000 at the front of the pack are all V8 minis now. The original idea as it came from the MDR 1500 rules was to create a driver's class using a simple limited leaf springer platform to keep things simple and competitive. Just never really came to pass in that original design unfortunately.
 

M.Tornel Jr

Well-Known Member
I think they can. I started racing on a 12 car and there were rarely more than 5 cars per race. Last couple of years there has been as many 12s as there are 10s (at least in score).
 

JHUT_553

Active Member
what im getting from here is that no one really has idea but just to say why this is happening? and did this in the past! this is why its here now.... i think we all get the idea times are changing technology will always surpass. but in what i think, if you like a class and you want to get into this type of racing and you can afford what you can afford being any class you desire... then go for it! i was always told by my father as long as you enjoy what your doing doesnt matter who its with, but being apart fo this desert comunity is nothing like it. so if you like class 1-2/16 through class 11 and you can afford it then run it. classes are dying becausue people are makeig it that way or seeing whats next or not enough entries in a race. the battle always is with yourself prepping your car, seat time knowing your car and the best part just to get accross the finish line. after you can complete that task for a few years and you want move up to more of a comp class so be it. but i think the real OG founding father of off road racing had always had this in mind, battle yourself against this gueling desert is the most compitition you will ever be up against. from what ive heard this comunity is the best to be apart of. so who cares what class has what entries obviously to me seems like people dont want to get out there and be apart of soemthing than jsut to cpmplain becausue its sounds easier to do just that. i dont knwo you guys but i dont think anythign else that is cooler than seeing your own name on the side of a car and better yet the side of your own funded car
 

offroadracer516

Well-Known Member
I hear what your saying, but I think it’s misleading. The cost to enter may be low, but the maintenance/prep is through the roof since there are no “off the shelf” parts. If you need a new set of arms, you gotta get get them custom fabbed. Not to mention the motor and trans bills, again must be done in by custom/boutique outfit. That’s my personal experience owning and prepping both.
What are you talking about??? You buy off the shelf Woods,Fodrill or lothringer or kartek arms right off the shelf. At multiple different offroad stores. I am a very low budget racer but I still manage to line up 2 to 4 times a year in this class. It cost around 400$ to have my trannie gone through every few races. How is that expensive prep? Go through the motor one time a year. Or every 1500 miles. Its been about 3500$. Rebuilding more often is pointless. My brother just won the MORE overall points running the same motor all year last year. Very little prep on the actual car outside of making sure the front end is tight. Micro stubs last 1000 miles. Axles last even farther. Torsian bars I got over 10 races out of the last set. Cv's keep going. Shocks don't need to rebuild often. There is a difference in prep and over prep. 1600 is still cheaper by far.
 
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TRAVISD

Well-Known Member
7s was staring to come back a bit in BITD, but when racers started to put motors that never came in trucks into there 7s thats when the **** hit the fan and racers were pissed. Now 7s is dead in BITD and most US racing.

As for the VW based classes, only 1600 is really going good. There are still new chassis being made and people building new cars. You cant say that about any of the other VW clasess, with the execption of 11. Plus 1600 is still pullingdecient numbers both sides of the boarder. Andi will agree with Robby, you can have a competive car with a small budget.
 
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