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Can dying classes be revived?

The answer is retirement homes underwrote The MINT hotel which underwrote the MINT 400.

(Sun City Off Road Entertainment was going to be the name of the organization, but some Fish in SoCal got Ted to write one of those letters.)
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Great post. Yes 40-50k is entry level. It’s a crap load of money but still entry level.
2004 i did jeep speed, built car my self, raced dash, 10 mile in broke, then jumped in head first parker, did whole series, 3rd, roy, raced same car& eng- trans added a new 9 inch in2005 , 3rd again, my total out lay of costs were about 20k, i knew my limitations &drove the car to match my wallet & had a Blast!!
 

vegasloki

Well-Known Member
The answer is retirement homes underwrote The MINT hotel which underwrote the MINT 400.
At the time while Webb had a few retirement communities, most notably Sun City, the bulk of the assets were in general construction and casino resort development. The big retirement community push from the company didn't start until after he had died. When the race started it was definitely not subsidized by the residential building part of the company. It was a two buggy promo trip from one of his casinos to another. The race followed the next year.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
The only thing holding the limited vw classes back from having high car counts is that you can’t easily finance the race car. It can be done with a personal loan at a high interest rate and parts can be purchased on a credit card, but primarily those limited classes are paid for with cash. My 9 car has been purchased, prepped, and raced for less than the purchase price of my used SXS. Limited vw classes are still the most affordable option in desert racing, you just don’t get the glory of saying “I raced the Mint or Baja” (and was nowhere near winning pace). The competition for those limited VW classes lies in the smaller regional series which are just as much fun as the others. A lot less velvet ropes and way more freedom than the big two series, but thats only my opinion and not fact. Class 9, 1600, 2000, and 1400/1450 aren’t dead or dying. Entries are down from the eighties and nineties, but thats true of every class as new generations of people have grown up and enjoy a more electronic life now a days. I love 5-1600 and the baja bug, but the biggest issue with that class is it is the same parts and cost as 1600 but slower and harder to prep/work on due to the body. That class may get more entries if they went backwards from microstubs and high compression motors. Make the parts cost less than a 1600 car and you might get more entries. Limit it to 2.0 shock sizes only, any disc brakes and vw stub axles, and a class 9 motor and those cars will require much less fuel and maintenance costs. That requires going backwards though so it won’t ever happen
 
At the time while Webb had a few retirement communities, most notably Sun City, the bulk of the assets were in general construction and casino resort development. The big retirement community push from the company didn't start until after he had died. When the race started it was definitely not subsidized by the residential building part of the company. It was a two buggy promo trip from one of his casinos to another. The race followed the next year.

BTW: MINT owner Del Webb's "Sun City" wasn't just one spot. The first was in AZ, opened 1/1/60, and sold out immediately. Then came similar successful developments in CA, NV, and FL. All were "Sun City."
 
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TROPHYSEDAN

Well-Known Member
I haven’t read all of this.
Leave the classes ALONE. No changes for a number of years.
Stop changing the rules.
Art. Score. Savage. Screwed the lil classes.
We NEED CLASS REPs.
WE VOTE ON OUR CLASS RULES.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
class drivers association's are good but it takes time& effort to run, 1700 was driver friendly& we had yearly meeting to airout issues& rule changes, kept all concerned in the loop, i hate when a low buck guy thought he was leagal/ competitive one year then bam!, his 4 cyl is junk cause v6 s are now leagal, low buck guy says screw it, im going golfing.i agree w comment on rules , leave alone
 

ACME

Well-Known Member
But where did that purse come from...
Marketing, to promote LV nationally and to incite tourism bringing in revenue. Before SM and insta-face you needed something people would notice to make headlines and anything with a lot of zero's attached to it or an event that created a "WOW" got national media... It's the same reason that in the 50's-60's-70's the Sahara and Desert Inn hosted Big $ golf tournaments that were not sanctioned, Liberace-Sinatra etc signed huge LV contracts that were nationally publicized, Evil's jump, big money fights and events like the NFR were brought in to market and gain more publicity across more market segments. It was all done to raise Las Vegas's profile nationally.

Yes, certain people have a passion for the sport and support events. But the Mint was a marketing tool of the time; just like imploding the old Casino's and a ton of other events were. Remember: Back when we had only had maybe 7 channels of TV, plus that UHF thingy and TV; newspapers and radio were our only forms of information? They all loved a big splashy headline and events and $ did that

Here's a little Wiki: Mint 400 - Wikipedia
 
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J Prich

Well-Known Member
Prich I get where you are coming from but I think and believe the history is lost and that has changed the sport. I'm also simply stating my thoughts on if/how/can/why classes can be revived or not and I believe SM, good or bad: Is a tipping point for the sport. No worries about my lawn, I gave up years ago...

The Mint seems a focus with your comments but that was not the point I was trying to get across. Regardless: Here's a few facts: SNORE brought the long dead Mint back as a replacement for another Primm race they had run. Other than the hype around the donkey show that's affiliated with it (mostly due to SM which was my point), It's just another Primm race and there have been plenty over the years. Again, it just shows how fashion and SM drive the market as, there is nothing special about the race itself as it's just like the BB400, Primm 300 and a number of others that have been run in that area. But tie in how the media has pimped and promoted it and it has become an event. Logistically towing in/out and all the other stuff is the primary and the race itself is secondary but it plays well in media. If you compare Parker to the Mint: Other than the show, Parker is a way better course and event imo, but the media has promoted one over the other as the end all event and thus my SM comments.

My other point was that SM has driven newer people to classes that have a higher SM profile. Not necessarily to the sport in general; but to certain classes. Trucks and UTV's have advertisers and garner the most media attention because of that. Thus that is what is promoted and in turn is what people relate to. If other classes were presented at an equal (or any) level to the outside world, that might possibly influence people to consider those classes. It's a play on the old saying: "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" but in this case it's: "Press on SM, buy on payments and race cause you can because that's how it works on the internet, then sell and move on in 6 mos when you realize it's not that easy...".

It's not only the internet, TV and virtually every other marketing effort related to the sport are focused the same way. They show Trucks: Leader trucks, back marker trucks, etc... and UTV's, Turbo, N/A Polaris. Can Am. So a guy goes to a race (or just decides to race and has not idea) and he has two obvious choices he understands. Back in the old days when they showed more classes and people understood a broad spectrum existed, and there was more participation across more classes. But then the special interests started splintering the classes to meet their wants which then diluted it all but that's a different topic... Bottom line is people used to do research and then made a decision. Now they go online, watch a video, only see TT or UTV on mainstream media or SM and a UTV is easier and you can finance it. Not to get purple: But at the same time it's also interesting to see the rise in violent crimes and in ratio to 1st person shooter content available. It just seems that the line between virtual and reality is very blurred nowadays and is mostly based on you AM or media presence which IMO can be a reason why these classes are not as viable as they once were.

20 years ago when you said you "Raced Desert or Baja", people would then ask "Like those buggy's or bikes?" 10 years ago "Truck or Buggy". Now if you ask a newer spectator or even a racer in UTV or a newer deep pockets truck guy that just found the sport, what's a 1/2 1600 or class 12? They'd have no idea, but they know all those trucks are Trophy Trucks or all UTV's are Turbo RZR's or that new Can Am. When in reality a pure race UTV has about as much in common with one off the showroom floor, as a new Raptor and a 6100 or TT.

Don't believe me take a look at the new SF Race works Can Am debuting at the Mint. WOW!

It wasn't all that long ago when all UTV's were all called Rhino's and marketing and SM changed that. It's a sign of the times but IMO it's also part of the sports issues and why only a few classes are really growing and the false economy of desert racing...
Sorry I didn't see this and don't want to make a long winded reply here. First regarding the Mint, I understand the history. My point was it's entire reason for even existing as an event was to be a marketing tool. The reason the purse was so high in the 70s/80s...in large part because of marketing. It's exactly the same as it is now. The SNORE 250 was racing all over the same areas...same terrain, etc. What made the Mint the Mint, at it's core, was the marketing and hype. Yes it was brutal and a badge of honor just to finish, but if you look at it from the start, virtually everything that made it what it became was in marketing, from tech on Fremont to the Mint Girls to race swag to the prize purse. It was all part of separating that race from every other race like it.

I don't get the argument that there is nothing special about the Mint now because it runs the same course other races race/d. That's a fairly irrational argument as far as I'm concerned. The original Mint, before it ended, raced numerous times in Sloan/Jean. I was there, I seent it, lol. I don't get the course argument. No matter how badly people want the north Vegas course, the reality is that ship has almost certainly sailed. And for what it's worth, THAT wasn't the original course either...so technically the north Vegas course that everyone loves wasn't the "real" Mint either. To put it another way, there is nothing particularly special about Indianapolis or Daytona either, concrete is concrete and left hand turns are left hand turns. But within their respective communities, those races are more prominent than others. Because of marketing...which created buzz, which created visibility, which created legacy. THAT is exactly what the Mint 400 is now. And its all marketing, that's the point I was making...that while the tools of marketing have changed over time, the process is still basically the same.
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
Just go to the site part of the forum and ask Curtis to delete your profile. I promise you, nobody will miss you.
Bert is actually super knowledgeable guy and great poster in the shop section. One of the best mechanical guys in there. He would be missed.
 

bajafox

Accepted
Bert is actually super knowledgeable guy and great poster in the shop section. One of the best mechanical guys in there. He would be missed.
Theres no need for trashing the forum though. The "I failed high school" filter has been in place for a while
 

retroblazer

Well-Known Member
Man
Class 3... so I started a father son project seven..... yep seven... years ago. Moss brothers inspired 79 Bronco.
Well u know the rest of the story.... still sits in the garage. I’ll never admit to the money that’s involved.
But it sure sounds good when she fires up... not much to look at
But worth the time with my boys. I would hope to finish some day.
I guess I’m way better at purchasing finished projectS than starting them.

Have all the respect for the people that have the talent to start ... finish ... and see them to the starting line.
Don’t stop working on it, besides the truck is probably worth more if it was done.
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
Sorry I didn't see this and don't want to make a long winded reply here. First regarding the Mint, I understand the history. My point was it's entire reason for even existing as an event was to be a marketing tool. The reason the purse was so high in the 70s/80s...in large part because of marketing. It's exactly the same as it is now. The SNORE 250 was racing all over the same areas...same terrain, etc. What made the Mint the Mint, at it's core, was the marketing and hype. Yes it was brutal and a badge of honor just to finish, but if you look at it from the start, virtually everything that made it what it became was in marketing, from tech on Fremont to the Mint Girls to race swag to the prize purse. It was all part of separating that race from every other race like it.

I don't get the argument that there is nothing special about the Mint now because it runs the same course other races race/d. That's a fairly irrational argument as far as I'm concerned. The original Mint, before it ended, raced numerous times in Sloan/Jean. I was there, I seent it, lol. I don't get the course argument. No matter how badly people want the north Vegas course, the reality is that ship has almost certainly sailed. And for what it's worth, THAT wasn't the original course either...so technically the north Vegas course that everyone loves wasn't the "real" Mint either. To put it another way, there is nothing particularly special about Indianapolis or Daytona either, concrete is concrete and left hand turns are left hand turns. But within their respective communities, those races are more prominent than others. Because of marketing...which created buzz, which created visibility, which created legacy. THAT is exactly what the Mint 400 is now. And its all marketing, that's the point I was making...that while the tools of marketing have changed over time, the process is still basically the same.
the race they call the Mint has absolutely zero relationship to the genuine Mint 400, nothing at all. The genuine Mint was lucrative to the people who did well this race they call the mint I am surprised they dont charge you to breath while you are there. Huge difference in the 2 events.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
the race they call the Mint has absolutely zero relationship to the genuine Mint 400, nothing at all. The genuine Mint was lucrative to the people who did well this race they call the mint I am surprised they dont charge you to breath while you are there. Huge difference in the 2 events.
LOL.
 

92OCHO

Active Member
Don’t stop working on it, besides the truck is probably worth more if it was done.
Ha... thanks for the encouragement... might when it cools off a bit..
but you know how it goes I stumbled on to another project.. but this on pulls out of the garage
I can deal with changing fluids and such... I blame Anheuser Busch products for my lack of skill and motivation
And ....... myself
 

rkracing

Well-Known Member
Its probably already been said but organizing some class coalition races might get some of the of the car counts up.
 

rkracing

Well-Known Member
Also why would you want to keep only classes based off of decades old parts and vehicles instead of taking advantage of newer technology and developing new ones. Look at 6100 and class 10 many were against the change but they are now some of the biggest categories.
 
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