This is really not going to go anywhere. If you take the fastest class 10's, meaning the ones that race SCORE, take the fastest class 8's, meaning the ones that run in BITD, and take the Protrucks, I believe you will find that they will all be pretty close to the same. Sure each class has stand out drivers, and machinery, but on the average I think they are all pretty much the same speed. The reason that every organization starts them in different orders is the fact that every organization has different vehicles that show up to their races. i am sure if Kyle Taylor, and dave westhem started showing up to VORRA races that class 8 would probably start in front of class 10.
Compiled are the following from each SCORE race since San Felipe in 1999:
1 - 1st in Class 10 time
2 - 1st in Pro Truck time
3 - MPH for 1st Class 10
4 - MPH for 1st Pro Truck
5 - Average of top 3 finishers time for Class 10
6 - Average of top 3 finishers time for Pro Truck
7 - Average of top 3 finishers MPH for Class 10
8 - Average of top 3 finishers MPH for Pro Truck
1/2 - Class 10 faster 10/13 races
3/4 - Class 10 faster 11/13 races (1-tie)
5/6 - Class 10 faster 12/13 races
7/8 - Class 10 faster 12/13 races
The majority of wins for Pro-Truck over 10 came at the hands of the late great Larry Plank.
How does SCORE justify starting a slower class in front of a faster class. I'll wait to discuss this with SCORE and Sal before I speculate.
If any Pro Truck racers want to cut the data to better serve their case I'll be more than happy to listen. But as it stands the facts as I see it prove that Class 10 outperforms Pro Trucks race-in and race-out in SCORE.
Thats a good point Jim, however the ratio would probably be the same at each venue. In other words, the SCORE 10's vs the SCORE 8's...and the VORRA 10's vs the VORRA 8's. A lot depends on the course too. If the course has a lot of straight and fast sections, I doubt very seriously that I could keep up with the horse power of a class 8 truck. On the other hand, If the course is very technical, its hard for the trucks to keep up with the agility of a 10 car. There are many variances. Personally, in this point of my racing career, and at the venues I run (VORRA and MDR), I feel that the running order (of 8's following 10's) is appropriate. Also, I should mention, I usually try to not second guess the rules made by the promoters (and I apologize if I came across that way). They see the whole picture, where as I'm totally focused on just one thing. Its an interesting topic tho, and I hope that theres more input.
I totally agree with you. If you take the best drivers of each class and combine them, you'd find all of them to be pretty close on time. The deal is that, there's more class 10 driver's that are better, than pro-truck, even though I think Pro-truck is probably better on paper. And with Class 8, well, its a dying class, not that many vehicles, and drivers.........
I think the 10 cars that did get passed by the pro-trucks would be very upset. It is hard to be gentle in a truck when you have to bump to get by. I know the buggy guys think that the truck guys hit them hard on purpose but it's not the case it's just a lot more weight and momentum typically. Maybe in some of the smaller racing organizations this may work but not in score. There may be a 10 car out there that is as fast as a pro truck, i doubt it, but maybe. Why put the rest of the 10 guys in such a bad position of getting hammered by trucks. And unless your going to make a case that 10 cars are faster than 1 cars you really have no basis. All that data I saw is silly, look at the split times from the baja 500, there wasn't a 10 car even close. I'd take shepard/ragland vs you pick-em 10 car. I wonder what clay thinks? clay you rode in my truck, you out there? thoughts? you're a 10 guy, is it just me or do the pro-trucks work pretty good?
I cannot understand the basis for your comment that the FACTS that I posted are "silly". I have to beg to differ with your interpretation of the facts.
I went back to look at the ONE race you pointed out, the Baja 500, and the ONE fact that you are zeroing in on SPLIT TIMES. I'm not seeing the same data you are claiming exists - " look at the split times from the baja 500, there wasn't a 10 car even close".
Looking into the split times at the 2001 Baja 500 there is some wacky timing going on for the first 3 split times but after that the Pro Truck of Hoffman only topped Ellison 1x out of 6 splits. Bottom line shows that the Pro Trucks were smoked by the 10 cars at the 500 this year. If the Pro Trucks dominated on split times than Rick Ellison wouldn't have beat the 1st Pro Truck by 0:48:45!!!
For the 2001 Baja 500 the 1st 10 Car averaged 41.281 vs. 1st ProTruck averaged 38.605. FACT is that the fastest ProTruck would have placed 4th in the 10 class. So maybe you should think twice about your comment that "there wasn't a 10 car even close".
The data I posted in the above post is certifiable FACT and not just 1 race, it is 3 years of data. I did not stack the deck and only pull one race. I did not stack the deck and zero in on only split times. Split times do not show consistency and true finishing fact. The data I put on the post is 3 years of data while you are leaning on 1 race?
Can you translate the following comments into English:
"And unless your going to make a case that 10 cars are faster than 1 cars you really have no basis."
We are not making a case that the 10's should be starting in front of the 1's so what relevance does this have?
A ten car that has to pass the slower Pro Truck generally will have caught them in a rough section because a 10 Car is not faster than a Pro Truck on a smooth road. But when a 10 car has to try and overtake a much heavier truck trying to bump them to let them know we are there becomes a real challenge.
The rear of a Pro Truck is up and down in the rough and every time I have had to get by a Pro Truck in SCORE, in the rough, I risk sticking my 10 car underneath the rear end of the Pro Truck. Inevitably I end up putting my bumper into the side of a rear tire and end up seeing fiberglass and fuel spouts flying off in the process.
On the other hand a "faster" Pro Truck that catches a 10 car on a smooth road does not face these challenges. It is a hell of a lot easier to put a bumper on somebody on a fast section than it is through the rough of San Felipe or Primm.
If you want to talk intelligently about this situation, do your homework, bring it to the table and I would be glad to hear your side of the story. Until you are willing to back up your comments with fact and fact that goes beyond 1 race and split times I say you step back and let those that have the facts speak.
And if Clay rode in your truck than I will gladly talk with him to see his opinion on the situation. But Clay runs primarily SNORE and this thread is about SCORE not SNORE. Put Danny Anderson, Rick Ellison or Mark Hutchins in your truck and then if they say that 10 cars should not start in front of the Pro Trucks in SCORE than I am almost positive the 10 class would not argue with it.
How much are you willing to put your Ragland/Shepard team against Danny Anderson at the Primm – I’m always ready for a friendly wager?
Respectfully and competitively yours,
SCORE Class 10
I'll have to agree with Ben 100%. I have been in a 1600 car that consistently beat the majority of Protrucks. Mark , I have heard first hand from one of SCORES top drivers (yes he has riden in your Protruck) that although Protrucks accelerate faster, that even a class 12 is faster through the rough than a Protruck. Then again , this is based on your Protruck , others may work much better.
It's cool that were having this conversation, heres how I look at the numbers. I admit I didn't dig deep into your analysis, but my sense is that you are taking finishing average speeds of the top guys in the class etc, and I don't think that is the way to analyze start positions. Everyone knows trophy trucks are way faster than anything but look at how many tt's break/crash/go of cliffs(self deprecation) and if we applied the same logic 1 cars would start ahead of trophy trucks.(I am a little loose with the facts but most likely correct) Now I started 40th at Baja and when my steering broke I was 4th on the road. I passed lots and lots and lots of 1 cars and TT's. So lets say at Baja I was the fastest pro-truck and Chris Harrold was the fastest 10 car. Although Rick won, Chris was turning faster splits everywhere except the crossover road where Rick beat him by a minute. Now the 1st 2 checks we all are eating dust so no one is really racing(at least your not supposed to be pinning it yet) I was only a little faster anyway, like 2 minutes. Then it was 2-3-7 minutes faster than Chris and 3-3-8 minutes faster than Rick. So when I broke it was like 17 minutes faster. So heres my spin, on the averages your data may well support that case but on the road, while we are pinning it, it doesn't. I would suspect that most of the 10's get by the PT's while they are parked oops(no commentary on drivers only talking vehicles here) .
Someone said so what about primm... ok I remember last year and Shep won PT and beat all the 10 cars. But I think that is the race and the area that the PT's have the least advantage. I think half way Mark Hutchins may have had him by a minute or two. But Shep ended up beating him by like 10 or 11 min's.
In Summary, I think when the guys are pinned, the PT's have an advantage. But! since I haven't seen another PT guy in here maybe you 10 guys scare them all! Anyway I bought mine as a pre-runner, I put over 7000 miles on it running around with Lightning for 6 weeks at the Baja 2000 pre-run and it worked flawless. I only got to drive one day in the TT at Nevada 2000 so I drove that PT in TT on all the other days and we ended up 4th TT (with a spare trans, spare v-drive among other spares for the TT's)and I don't believe a 10 car beat us there either. After we all got fired.... uh hum, the VORTEC program got canceled... I figured what the heck lets try and race it for real. And the 500 was my first shot. I totally respect all you guys cause I know this racing is no easy deal. The hardest part of this whole thing is passing guys in the dust so it's understandable that everyone wants to do the least of it possible.
Your are right we did not take the time to analyze the stats for three years of races down to individual split times looking for the fastest splits.
Regarding the Trophy Truck / Class 1 start issue as you pointed out. With a Class 1 car you have (the potential) for huge HP. With that you are "given" the luxury of being able to throttle it to make a quick pass. With a 10 car (or slower) to pass you've got to:
1. Get a big run on someone
2. Have the vehicle in front of you back way out of it
We do not have the luxury of HP to make a quick pass or a loud motor or big presence to let another class know we are there.
I think looking for the fastest splits can be deceiving. I am watching the Tour de France and here is a perfect example of racers putting up times that don't reflect their overall potential.
We can send a rabbit out in 10 to set some blazing fast split times without a concern for finishing and then produce paper results that match your chosen analysis but my feeling is that this would be short sighted.
We all know that most of us will run only as fast as really necessary to win a class. I personally am not going to risk a class win for a higher overall finish when there is nothing to gain from that. I believe that, that is the case for most racers so with that....
I decided to look at finishing times to justify the strength of the class as a whole, not the strength of one "rabbit" that might go ballistic off the start or through a section and set an unrealistic split time.
I will not argue about what you went through at the start of the Baja 500 but I think this discussion needs to be founded on the class as a majority not the accomplishments of a driver. That is why we decided to look at the top 3 finishers not just the top.
Primm - I have not looked at splits there but if you want to use the same individualistic analysis with the 2000 Primm lets look at my split times. I know I set a 1:07 lap that put me up in the Class 1's but my aggressive (maybe too) driving put me out of the race prematurely. Also, at this race Chris Harold DNF and Danny Anderson DNS and Rick Ellison had problems as well.
I'll try and dig up my splits for my 1:07 lap and see how that compares to the Primm Pro Truck winner. But it is my belief that split times do not show the true issue here - a class vs a class.
Back in my days of ATV racing SCORE would start the class that finished first the previous race in front of the other. True here the sizes did not come into play but SCORE had a "policy" on this issue.
I'll pick up the phone on Monday and give Sal/James a call and see if they can offer an explanation as to how they look at this.
Also, I am trying to keep this focused on SCORE as this is where my data is sourced from. I can not intelligently discuss other venues such as BITD, SNORE, Whiplash, MDR, etc.
I believe that when SCORE figures out the starting class positions for a certain race, they look at the past results of the classes in that race. The classes overall times and the number of people in each class. Yes, in most of the races you will have some Class 10's faster than the Protrucks or Class 8's but as you look at the Baja 500 the fastest Class 10 had to pass 7 Protrucks. If the Protrucks started behind Class 10 the fastest Protruck would have had to pass 19 Class 10's. Which is more fair to the racers, having to pass 7 or 19? There will always be someone in Class 10, 12, or even 1/2-1600 that finishes ahead of some of the trucks, but you have to look at the number of people in each class and figure out how many would each have to pass. Its not right to make someone pass 20 cars when the other person would only have to pass less than half that.
So Josh, your comment was/is "you look at the Baja 500 the fastest Class 10 had to pass 7 Protrucks"
and "the fastest Pro Truck would have had to pass 19 Class 10's".
Looking at the results myself I see that
1. Fastest Class 10 had to pass 7 Pro Trucks
2. The 2nd Fastest Class 10 had to Pass 7 Pro Trucks
3. The 3rd Fastest Class 10 had to Pass 7 Pro Trucks
So maybe your statement is not 100% accurate but that is really beside the point.
Lets apply your understanding to Class 8's
Top finisher was 133rd Overall and their 2nd was 144th overall
By your understanding SCORE will now be starting them maybe behind the Sportsman Buggy because their worst finisher, 4 place, was 140th overall and their best was 118th.
Somehow I do not think SCORE will be starting the Class 8's behind the Sportsman Buggies at the 2002 Baja 500.
Use your same understanding applying to other classes and other races. I know the 1st place 1600 Class finisher at the 2000 Baja 2000 beat all 12's, all 10's all Pro Trucks as well as all Class 8's.
So with your understanding for the 2001 Baja 1000 SCORE will be starting the 1600's behind the Class 1's.
What does not make sense to me with your understanding of how SCORE starts the classes is where do you make the decision on who is passing who? Is it the top finisher, is the whole finishing class and whoever has to pass more people starts in front?
Interesting understanding but I'll wait to talk to Sal to see what his line is before I speculate.
YOUR GUYS ARE ALL RIGHT. CLASS 10S ARE FAST,BUT, AT TIMES THE PRO-TRUCKS ARE FASTER THEN THE 10 CARS DEPENDING ON WHAT RACE,TERRAIN,AND STARTING POSITION. THERE ARE A LOT OF FAST 10 CARS AND THEN SOME NOT SO FAST,JUST LIKE PRO-TRUCKS,BUT WHEN YOU HAVE TO START BEHIND 20-25 WITH FAST AND SLOW MIXED IN, IT MAKES IT TOUGH TO GET A GOOD OVERALL FINISH. SAME WITH CLASS 8 AT THE BITD RACES. IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THE PRO-TRUCKS HAVE BEEN GETTING FASTER, WITH MORE ENTRYS HERE IN THE NEAR FUTURE AND SOME MUCH NEEDED RULE CHANGES COMING INTO EFFECT,I THINK IT WILL BE NECESSARY FOR THE PRO-TRUCKS TO START IN FRONT OF THE 10 CARS. ALSO BECAUSE OF THE PRO-TRUCK SERIES, YOU DONT SEE SOME OF THE TOP TEAMS RACING ALL OF THE SCORE EVENTS.
Ben with 20 plus 10 cars you are bound to get a few 10 cars posting better finishing times than Protrucks. 10 cars have better visibility in technical terrain (I'm constantly slowing down because I can't see over the hood in my Protruck), 10 cars have much better fuel range over Protrucks (At San Felipe I could only go 80 miles on a tank of gas and had 27 fuel stops for the baja 2000.), and 10 cars have unlimited suspension (my Protruck suspension works great except the really big sharp faced holes). In the past 2 years I've only been passed by one 10 car while I was running this was in the very deep holed section after the highway part of the San Felipe race by car 1013 and he held me up when we got back to the fast stuff. Why? Because protrucks have got 10 cars beat hands down on horse power and more importantly torque. Mark Miller was right when he said the race doesnt in the first 100 miles because of the dust! You can't race when your in the blinding dust. Here lies the problem between the two classes every time the Protruck puts time on the 10 car he has to pit because of our fuel range problems (Ivan can we please have bigger tanks????) and the 10 car closes the gap and feels like he's been following this guy all day. Start the protrucks behind the 10 cars and we have to pass the same guys every time we stop for gas. Also when a 4800lb protruck nerfs a 1800lb 10 car people start yelling CRB. Start any race with 20 Protrucks and 20 10 cars and the overall result would favor Protrucks in my opinion. Ben you bitch to SAL that 10's should start in front of Protrucks and I'll bitch that Protrucks should start first (hopefully he will have enough time to put on the next race! I sure don't envy his job) besides that there are many 10 cars that would rather start behind the heavy metal.
Next time you do a survey between the 2 classes, times between checkpoints would be more fair and maybe average in the top 3 10 cars against the fastest protruck because of our lesser numbers and remember that we have to pit twice as much. Crunch the numbers and get back to me and I'll see you at Primm.
It's gotta be safer at the start to have the heavier PT's and 8's ahead of the light 10's.
And the question of which is faster depends on the course and who enters.
Look at the Baja 2000. At San Ignacio (after 24 hours) I belive there was only
one or two class 10's ahead of us (class 8) and most of the PT's (if not all) were
also still behind us. Same holds true for Curt LeDuc. And the 8's would have
been even further up the road if any of the really fast 8's raced. LeDuc was
just in an old 6 cyl and I was just in my prerunner. It wasn't that long ago that
a class 8 overalled a LaPaz run - and the rules are still the same. Also, most
8's now are slow and are easy to pass if you are in a fast 10 car. But they
still weigh 6000# and a fast one should not be coming thru a field of little buggies.
Plus Chris' prerunner was down at least 10 minutes after some electrical problems in the Ensenada sewer/flood channel and even more time(15 to 20min) because one of these really fast 10 cars couldn't make it up the rock climb so he had to wait in line. If it wasn't for these two delays who knows who would have passed him later in the race.