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Class 5 only

frostbite36

Capt. Hindsight
Guys can you believe 42 pages and over 30,000 views for a class that's dead! Well the 5 car is gone and just arrived in Cabo tonight.

5 cars rule and best of luck to all!!!
FYI - our car finished 6th OA at Chili Cook Off and 2nd OA at MORE 500 with a 2332 and only ran 3 mph less than our type 4. 105 mph and 102 mph
Mendeola 5 speed
Jimbo, do you have HP and torque numbers for your type-4 you were running last year? Did you build it? Thanks buddy...BTW, are you building a class-10 car?
 

SKM Built

Well-Known Member
Wheezy your quite the salesman. Ive been against this from the beginning but you've got the facts . I was planning on parking my car after this year and starting on a 10. Prep cost and overall cost to race is much less than 5u. I feel we should let you guys race one race as a test. Chili cook off would be cool with me if ecos ran. I hate to see change but if there were more cars I would continue to race my 5u. So I would like to run a race with you and check these cars out in action. Other than me being an air cooled guy I dont have a reason for not allowing them. Is there a comparable VW motor available? It would be legal. Years ago I did some research on the 1.8 but it will never build the hp that even a big type 1 can.

What do you think about September?
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
A sealed ecotech is comparible to an above average type 4. Thats a fact. A close friend of mine and poster on this thread has a fat type 4 2,400 and something, pump gas engine. Although he probably has me in ability behind the wheel and a slightly better car I have him in the palm of my hand in short order with my stock ecotec BAJA (sad but true). Granted this isnt the "GIANT 3 LITER TORQUE MONSTER GRRRRRR" but its bigger than alot of the 5 opens racing right now.

If you guys care to go to the moreracing.net website and look up the results for 5 open and class 3000. 5 open had 10+- entries, and the 3000 class had 15 entries for the end of the year shoot out. The lap times are very very close. And the best of the best 5 open racers were entered. A couple weeks ago in the more 500 a class 3000 car beat all the 5 opens, not that there were many but one of them was the belk car (one of the best). granted I guarante they weren't pushing because there was 2 (two!!!) other competitors. But if they were racing that pesky stock sealed ecotec 3000 car they would have had to push harder to win because they got beat! HMMMMMMMMM!

I'm not going to ask if people like the belks, the silver bullet car, aj martin, and jim varshay are scared of an ecotec baja because I know they're not. That might be the reason why these guys are smart enough to realize that it will not do one bit of harm, it will add interest and counts to the class, they're like vehicles, and they know that it will be good competition. Not to mention the bonus of some ACTUAL payback from increased entries.

Heres a good question. whats more interesting and fun to watch 7, 5 open baja bugs with type 4's, or 20 5 open with type 4's and ecotecs?

And stop bringing up the argument that "you shouldn't have built a baja if you cant afford to race it". or "whats going to win, a baja with a bus box and an ecotec, or a 3 liter type 4 and an albins"? And stop saying "after you guys continue to get beat by the big type 4 we will want to punch out our ecotec". Thats friekin lame!! If that happened we would buy someones used 3 liter type 4 thats for sale on the classifieds for $5k. The reason people run ecotecs is because they are practical. There are fortin sequential trans (reliable and $$$$) and $8,000 motec ignition (reliable and $$$$$) systems attached to ecotecs (RELIABLE AND AFFORDABLE) guys, and they flat haul ash and actually are faster than 85 to 90% of any of the guys racing 5 open. Couple that with a perfectly tuned car and that is a recipe for the question to be asked "well if you cant beat em join em". Alot of people already are.

For the rest of the guys stop saying you dont want to race us and show us how much better the type 4 is. SERIOUSLY!!!
 

frostbite36

Capt. Hindsight
http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com/2-4l-ecotec-4cyl-190-hp-off-road/

Frosty, I like you. I really like you, you've made me laugh a few times. But dude, you've got to be kidding me here, right? Like seriously you're kidding or on some sort of medication, or someone has hacked your account, right? I'm laughing my ass off. We need to go have a few beers and talk about this some more
Wheezy, if you knew better how to sell your idea, you'd have more folks behind your concept; but if you lack the social or human engineering skills to get your way, you will be destined to failure...I am not sure how well we'd get along if I met you face to face...your baseless "ridicule" doesn't help your cause of gainining allies.

Zac, your point about the 3000 cars keeping pace or beating 5 cars is definately relevant and has been brought up earlier in this thread...also, my personal experience was they ran just a bit better than our lame-o big displavement, low compression T-1 we used to run in our 5U car. The reality is they should have more of an advantage with the A-arm front end, but don't quite have a power edge on a "super-trick" T-4...so things end up pretty even. I bet if you put a super-trick T-4 in a well setup 3000 car, they'd walk the dog on 5 open cars...
 

baja stu

Well-Known Member
The reality is they should have more of an advantage with the A-arm front end, but don't quite have a power edge on a "super-trick" T-4...so things end up pretty even. I bet if you put a super-trick T-4 in a well setup 3000 car, they'd walk the dog on 5 open cars...
You just hit the nail on the head!
The only true common denominator on a 3000 vs CL5 is the 105 W/B .
 

VIGILANTE

Member
NOT going to happen, I've been asking for that list for years and have not received a single valid argument. Just a bunch of centimental garbage and whiney egomania crapola.
Wheezy, you might lack some people skillz but you are my heroe! You never quit. I have followed this thread and have made a few comments in favor of the ecotec. They all got shot down pretty quickly. I am one of the few who started building my 5u when the rules "by mistake" allowed the sealed Eco to run with the class in BITD. Well despite the rule change back, I never stopped building the car. Our team will still be shooting to race Parker at the beginning of the year. What ever class they put me in, we are going to have a blast! I would love to race with the rest of the guys in the 5u class. I will be another new competitor in the class if the rules change. If they don't change it will be a missed opportunity for everyone, and I'm sure I'm not the only new comer in this situation. Thanks for listening and sorry for the ramble.
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
Wheezy, you might lack some people skillz but you are my heroe! You never quit. I have followed this thread and have made a few comments in favor of the ecotec. They all got shot down pretty quickly. I am one of the few who started building my 5u when the rules "by mistake" allowed the sealed Eco to run with the class in BITD. Well despite the rule change back, I never stopped building the car. Our team will still be shooting to race Parker at the beginning of the year. What ever class they put me in, we are going to have a blast! I would love to race with the rest of the guys in the 5u class. I will be another new competitor in the class if the rules change. If they don't change it will be a missed opportunity for everyone, and I'm sure I'm not the only new comer in this situation. Thanks for listening and sorry for the ramble.
Hey we appreciate the apology and will only allow the ramble this once. Good for you for sticking with the build it will all work out, and if this doesn't class 3000 is a blast for baja bugs too. Enjoy the build and the frustrations of a new car ahead unless you're a pro fabber. Post some photos.
 

Baja Jim

Well-Known Member
No I don't have numbers on the type 4. Andy at Majors did my engines and the dyno he has is limited. He basically uses it for tuning purposes.

I'm in limbo as to what I am going to do? I have an Alumi Craft Class 1 chassis that is sitting and and tabbed out but would take me a year or so to finish. I've had it for sale and have a buyer for it who is supposed to send me payment? I like the 10 car as thats where I spent many years racing. But recently I have driven several trucks and have been impressed with them, the new 6100 class seems to be a great concept (sealed engine) set-up and driving ability will be keys to success.

Other option is to buy a ride? If anyone looking for qualified 2nd driver I'm out there and ready! I am testing with a trophy truck team tomorrow and class 1 team next week? We'll see where that goes. Pretty sure I'll be racing 1000 with new owner of my class 5. Can't just walk away from 5! (did I mention that it's the funnest class I have ever driven!!!)
Jimbo, do you have HP and torque numbers for your type-4 you were running last year? Did you build it? Thanks buddy...BTW, are you building a class-10 car?
 

frostbite36

Capt. Hindsight
No I don't have numbers on the type 4. Andy at Majors did my engines and the dyno he has is limited. He basically uses it for tuning purposes.

I'm in limbo as to what I am going to do? I have an Alumi Craft Class 1 chassis that is sitting and and tabbed out but would take me a year or so to finish. I've had it for sale and have a buyer for it who is supposed to send me payment? I like the 10 car as thats where I spent many years racing. But recently I have driven several trucks and have been impressed with them, the new 6100 class seems to be a great concept (sealed engine) set-up and driving ability will be keys to success.

Other option is to buy a ride? If anyone looking for qualified 2nd driver I'm out there and ready! I am testing with a trophy truck team tomorrow and class 1 team next week? We'll see where that goes. Pretty sure I'll be racing 1000 with new owner of my class 5. Can't just walk away from 5! (did I mention that it's the funnest class I have ever driven!!!)
Jim, I wonder if we can get Andy to wade in here and give his comments on a compatible "sealed" motor for the class? I know he was deeply involved in the recent class-12 engine option addition. I remember him commenting a lot along with the other major/well-known VW engine builders like "FAT" and Adam Wik.

I thought you had another older 5U car too...that you could use in the mean time? Don't you dare go race trucks!!!
 

bajabird

Well-Known Member
I'm still wondering why those that want to go eco, go eco and run in class 3000?

Class 5 will be fine, so will class 5/16 and class 11.
Numbers at the races will come and go, but these classes will endure!
 

Wendell #527

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I like (or maybe used to like) class 5u is the people racing 5u. I always saw some of the other classes bickering and calling each other out as cheating and everything, and it was great to be in 5u where we all got along and honestly I liked racing with a bunch of guys I could drink a beer with after the race. This crap I'm reading here is taking all the fun out of the class for me. I don't know if anybody gives a ratz azz or not, but I'm about done with it. Go ahead and race 3000 cars and call them 5u if it makes you feel good. I'm going to sell my 5u and build something else.
 

Matt Mead

Well-Known Member
I'm assuming you realize T4's are NOT necessarily about big HP numbers, they are about high TORQUE numbers. Big 3.0's put out both, but still are all about that low end torque. They cost $14K PLUS new from FAT. Varshay spent about $30K or so on a VW Paradise setup from Jason if I recall correctly. 220HP to the wheels and some ridiculous torque number. So $29K for 30HP difference or there about.
Varshay's motor is a one-off beast that I'm not sure anybody should be comparing to, especially with the *custom* fuel injection PROTOTYPE built for him. It was reported to make about 300HP to the flywheel, so I think 220HP to the wheels sounds about right when you factor in the super beefy transmission and the really heavy 35" Baja Projects he ran on the back that suck up all the power.

You are right about the torque, though. I finally got a chance to look at Erik Earnest's dyno sheets after racing with him for a long time. It's as flat as a V8 throughout a huge RPM range. It was amazing to look at the torque curve actually. I think we were a little bit under 200HP to the wheels IIRC. We had 200-300cc less than Varshay, less compression, and less aggressive tuning (timing curves weren't dialed in to the max). Oh, and the rev limiter was set to around 5500, really low compared to higher strung eco's, but the torque curve wasn't even beginning to fall off there.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
I am going to spell this out since my post's don't seem to convey the message i'm trying to send.

I am not 100% against the ecotec. only like 75%.

I am not for allowing the ecotec into the class because I would like to see the class remain traditional

I am not against allowing the ecotec because I feel it is an inferior option to what you can run and it will open the financial doors up to more entries.

It would be really cool to see the class maintain above a 10 car average for a 5 race series. Allowing the ecotec would make this a possibility.

My vote is NO on eco's, but I wouldn't complain if they allowed them. At this point in the thread it comes down to the ecotec activist to make it happen if they want a rule change.

I already know of teams getting 30 more hp with ecotec's by spending mucho dollars on a tuner to have them tune the engine. That's 30hp on a tune alone. So in the near future you won't be able to just pluck a motor out of a junkyard and keep up.
 

wheezy

"PRO PHOTO"
What car do you race and in what series?
 

TexasBaja

Well-Known Member
I am going to spell this out since my post's don't seem to convey the message i'm trying to send.

I am not 100% against the ecotec. only like 75%.

I am not for allowing the ecotec into the class because I would like to see the class remain traditional

I am not against allowing the ecotec because I feel it is an inferior option to what you can run and it will open the financial doors up to more entries.

It would be really cool to see the class maintain above a 10 car average for a 5 race series. Allowing the ecotec would make this a possibility.

My vote is NO on eco's, but I wouldn't complain if they allowed them. At this point in the thread it comes down to the ecotec activist to make it happen if they want a rule change.

I already know of teams getting 30 more hp with ecotec's by spending mucho dollars on a tuner to have them tune the engine. That's 30hp on a tune alone. So in the near future you won't be able to just pluck a motor out of a junkyard and keep up.
So you are saying there might be a chance that you might consider allowing the eco's to not run in the class but only if they allow them to run you would consider it.

I am confused.

On another Class 5 Only note..What happened to Kevin Car at the 500. Did he loose a front spindle? This is an awesome pic and glad to hear that he placed second. Who got 1st, 3rd,4th,5th , and so on in class 5?
 

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steve0we

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I like (or maybe used to like) class 5u is the people racing 5u. I always saw some of the other classes bickering and calling each other out as cheating and everything, and it was great to be in 5u where we all got along and honestly I liked racing with a bunch of guys I could drink a beer with after the race. This crap I'm reading here is taking all the fun out of the class for me. I don't know if anybody gives a ratz azz or not, but I'm about done with it. Go ahead and race 3000 cars and call them 5u if it makes you feel good. I'm going to sell my 5u and build something else.
Dont jump ship. There isnt any racing this week( I dont think) so what else do we have to do but bring up good ideas!
For all of you saying the low race turnouts are because of the economy... MOVE TO TEXAS, we have a great economy, and we would love to see some of those bad ass 5U visit us at a Texas race! Bring your eco, your T1 your T4, your tired, your hungry, your.... you get the point!

All this posting has me all fired up to go work on the 5U300010 car sitting in my shop... BRB! Have a great weekend everyone!
 

frostbite36

Capt. Hindsight
I'm still wondering why those that want to go eco, go eco and run in class 3000?
Class 5 will be fine, so will class 5/16 and class 11.
Numbers at the races will come and go, but these classes will endure!
You know, if the ECOTEC guys build it, the air-cooled class-5U guys would probably just talk to the organizers, vote, and just let them race the class on a case by case/race by race basis until there is some sort of conclusion on a possible "sealed/crate" motor? Kinda a "build-it and they will come", mentality...

...or run class-3000, for the love of God!!...let's just go race!!
 

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Baja Jim

Well-Known Member

TexasBaja

Well-Known Member
You know, if the ECOTEC guys build it, the air-cooled class-5U guys would probably just talk to the organizers, vote, and just let them race the class on a case by case/race by race basis until there is some sort of conclusion on a possible "sealed/crate" motor? Kinda a "build-it and they will come", mentality...

...or run class-3000, for the love of God!!...let's just go race!!
What ever happened to your car?
 
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