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Class 5 only

turbodon

Well-Known Member
Turbodon, I don't 100% disagree with what you are saying, but 10-15hp isn't going to be the difference in beating any of the DRIVERS that are running up front. I can tell you 10-15hp isn't going to get you in front of the Belks, Zach, Travis, Bean, Willard or the Schweers. Most of the cars are so different that it comes down to who is comfortable with their equipment. Look at how many older cars are still winning against the new breed of cars. If you look at how races were won and loss this year it comes down to who was there at the finish with the least mechanical issues (Parker, V2R, Pahrump).
Big Blue,
I agree w/ you 100%
Aside from Willard, I believe all those names you just mentioned are stock Ecotecs. Willards is built I beleive but maybe makes less hp than a new DI?
Why are those guys worried about modded engines if they're already winning without them. The current rules already allow modded engines and those guys are not being beat by anyone with a modded engine. That's why I'm LOST.
 

SKM Built

Well-Known Member
Ok, I agree with stopping the 2.5 before it gets outta control. But, you can't force guys like myself to start over with a whole new platform. I've been running the honda k24 for 4 years now. The power I put out gives no advantage. The wheel base is what slows these cars down. With the torque possibilities of a 2.5 I can see them being monsters. I've already installed and tested a 2.5 in Dillions car and it is pretty amazing how much harder it pulls then my honda.

I will go along with the stock 2.5 rule but I will not agree to change the rules on 2.4. Its not right that myself and others start over.

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SKM Built

Well-Known Member
I haven't been on here in years. M&D is my old race team for you guys that are new to the class, this is Scott Moldenhauer

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Bajabug222

Active Member
I can see limiting the 2.5 before things get crazy. I’m in the same boat as Scott. I’m running the K24. I’m just around the corner from starting to race in 2019.
I don’t agree with limiting the 2.4s. Not a single team dominating.
 

PRECEPTS

Well-Known Member
I don’t think anyone is suggesting a single supplier, only that the motor is measured and tagged by a reliable engine builder. Also I’m not suggesting an ecotec only class, you should still be able to run any engine you want as long as it’s 2.5 or smaller and stock (including throttle body).
Regarding the results over the last two years it’s true the modified cars have not done well, but that dam is about to break. If the rule stays the same our cars will have an additional 50 hp next season. Thankfully SNORE has taken the initiative and as of now the rules should be different next season. This discussion is really about 2020.
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
The mentality seems to be either pay now or pay later.
Expensive transmissions: 12-30k pay now and maintain a reliable platform that lasts and gives high performance
cheap transmission: $3-8k pay later in an unreliable and non competitive platform that can fail and cost you more
expensive ecu: $6-10k pay now for a reliable platform no maintenance with ability to troubleshoot a problem
cheap ecu: $1-3k pay later for potential failure and poor performance and eventually spend the money for a better option
exotic engines: pay a lot to build, pay to maintain, everybodies cost go up to keep up with jones's
stock engines: cheap, levels the playing field, keeps cost and an arms race in check, cars still go real fast.
 

turbodon

Well-Known Member
The mentality seems to be either pay now or pay later.
Expensive transmissions: 12-30k pay now and maintain a reliable platform that lasts and gives high performance
cheap transmission: $3-8k pay later in an unreliable and non competitive platform that can fail and cost you more
expensive ecu: $6-10k pay now for a reliable platform no maintenance with ability to troubleshoot a problem
cheap ecu: $1-3k pay later for potential failure and poor performance and eventually spend the money for a better option
exotic engines: pay a lot to build, pay to maintain, everybodies cost go up to keep up with jones's
stock engines: cheap, levels the playing field, keeps cost and an arms race in check, cars still go real fast.

I understand that.

Not everyone that jumps in the class is in an immediate position to throw down for the best of the best items that you mentioned though. Some of us need to grow over time and work our way towards those things.
Some of us will have to put those Transaxle repair bills on our Credit Card a few times before we're eventually ready to sack up to an S5 or 6.


Your case ( pre upgades ) is the perfect example to argue that a person can enter the class with a 4 speed trans, completely or partially home-built chassis, junk yard Ecotec with lesser expensive Mefi computer set-up, and do very well.

The idea that a 2.4 is OK to be modified, but a 2.5 must remain stock seems real strange to me.

Basically, guys built modified engines in hopes that they would have an upper hand advantage of some sort over their competition.
Now that the 2.5 is able to beat out the power that their built 2.4 makes, suddenly they are not OK with a package that would give their competitor more power than their built 2.4 makes. So they were OK with stepping up the power when it gave them an advantage but now that's it's possible for someone with the new engine to have an advantage on them, it's not OK now?
That's a double standard if I've ever heard of one.
 

SILVERBULLET5

Well-Known Member
We agreed on the engine rules and we should stick to it.

Any manufacturer production 4 cylinder water cooled engine 2.5 liters or less is allowed.
Must retain OEM cast head. Must retain OEM cast block. No forced induction allowed.

Why would you want to dis-qualify existing cars running Subaru or Honda and force Class 10 rules on our class?

It's Class 5 Unlimited

The class has been taking off in the last couple years with the existing rules, it makes no sense to change them at this point.
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
these engine rules were made by 4 or 5 people that didn’t race ecotecs. They all raced vw’s and that was the mantality. Soup up something stock because nothing stock or cheap works. I was the one guy who voted for stock watercooled ecotecs. Thinking how easy this would be for new people to join the class and be competitive. They wanted to allow any make engine as well as full modifications. Total facepalm. So I wanted stock engines and I wanted to keep the class growing and keep the type 4 racers relevant.

There are a handful of competitive racers with 3 liter type 4’s but they are no match for a built ecotec, Honda, or any other modified water cooled engine and that is the problem. The “ORIGINAL” intent of the rule was to make the big type 4 guys maintain the advantage over a stock ecotec putting down 155hp to the wheels like me. That is no longer the case with the stock 2.5 ecotec or Honda’s. We have made the guys who didn’t want watercooled engines for a good reason obsolete. After a while for short period of time I was totally behind it saying the way the rules are set up no one could build the power of a big type 4 with only 2.5 liters that’s what I was told by the guys who wanted to build hi po water coolers.. I’m no engine builder and believed, now I know that is not the case And now it’s the problem. If big type 4’s can’t competw the the engine rules should be re evaluated.
 
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BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
The Type 4 guys are hanging on to nostalgia at this point. Price out a whiz bang Type 4 and all of a sudden mounting a radiator and EcoTec becomes rather attractive.
 

Bajabug222

Active Member
The Type 4 guys are hanging on to nostalgia at this point. Price out a whiz bang Type 4 and all of a sudden mounting a radiator and EcoTec becomes rather attractive.
Exactly. Would love to run a big type 4 but not for the money. I’m running a stock junkyard Honda in my car.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
I unfortunately have no dog in this fight but after watching very closely at Rage at the River this weekend it is very apparent that you have to have an expensive transmission to run up front in this class. Even Zac's garage built car has morphed and evolved to keep up with the newest builds. I will always love this class, will never be able to afford to race it, opposed the water pumper from the start, but love that there are entries again and I love watching all you guys battle against each other with close racing. Just from an outsiders view, motors will not keep people from building 5 cars. $30k dollar transmissions and expensive maintenance will.
 

PRECEPTS

Well-Known Member
I understand that.

Not everyone that jumps in the class is in an immediate position to throw down for the best of the best items that you mentioned though. Some of us need to grow over time and work our way towards those things.
Some of us will have to put those Transaxle repair bills on our Credit Card a few times before we're eventually ready to sack up to an S5 or 6.


Your case ( pre upgades ) is the perfect example to argue that a person can enter the class with a 4 speed trans, completely or partially home-built chassis, junk yard Ecotec with lesser expensive Mefi computer set-up, and do very well.

The idea that a 2.4 is OK to be modified, but a 2.5 must remain stock seems real strange to me.

Basically, guys built modified engines in hopes that they would have an upper hand advantage of some sort over their competition.
Now that the 2.5 is able to beat out the power that their built 2.4 makes, suddenly they are not OK with a package that would give their competitor more power than their built 2.4 makes. So they were OK with stepping up the power when it gave them an advantage but now that's it's possible for someone with the new engine to have an advantage on them, it's not OK now?
That's a double standard if I've ever heard of one.
I don’t see it that way at all, there’s no double standard here, I don’t know who “they” are but this is intended by SNORE and voted on by over a dozen teams to keep the class from spinning out of control. Like I said before, these new rules by SNORE are for 2019.
The discussion is about 2020.
 

ErikIrvine

Well-Known Member
Zac all these engine builders in the process of making some upgraded engines should send you a commission check! 1st place in both big 5U races and helping Swift get 1st at the 1000, what a badass year!! Making people throw more money at their cars.

Where is Pistol Pete??! we need someone to blame your results on cheating with no reason or basis!

Staying on the low EQ, high school drama level of Pistol Pete, should I up the ante on smashing in Zac's rear bumper from $100 to $1,000 for 2019 season?
 

Bajawillie

Well-Known Member
I understand that.

Not everyone that jumps in the class is in an immediate position to throw down for the best of the best items that you mentioned though. Some of us need to grow over time and work our way towards those things.
Some of us will have to put those Transaxle repair bills on our Credit Card a few times before we're eventually ready to sack up to an S5 or 6.


Your case ( pre upgades ) is the perfect example to argue that a person can enter the class with a 4 speed trans, completely or partially home-built chassis, junk yard Ecotec with lesser expensive Mefi computer set-up, and do very well.

The idea that a 2.4 is OK to be modified, but a 2.5 must remain stock seems real strange to me.

Basically, guys built modified engines in hopes that they would have an upper hand advantage of some sort over their competition.
Now that the 2.5 is able to beat out the power that their built 2.4 makes, suddenly they are not OK with a package that would give their competitor more power than their built 2.4 makes. So they were OK with stepping up the power when it gave them an advantage but now that's it's possible for someone with the new engine to have an advantage on them, it's not OK now?
That's a double standard if I've ever heard of one.
Don, nobody said that the 2.4 built motor can't compete with the stock 2.5. I for one don't have a problem racing against a stock 2.5. I think the power is about the same but the torque curve is different. I dont know who "they" is either but I assure you that nobody has ever complained about being beat by a stock 2.5 that was running a built 2.4 or I've never heard of it.
My 2.4 with mephi computer makes my H pattern more competitive. If I have to give up the built 2.4 motor at a cost of about 10k then we would need to run the sequential to even the playing field. Its the same money or more to go with the stock 2.4 tagged motor in my opinion. It means you will have to run a big money trans and big money ECU like class 10. Doesn't that just negate the whole argument that we need to keep costs down? If the rule says that 2.5 remains stock and 2.4 can be built then I think that's fair, I see them as pretty equal. Any air cooled is also good with me.
 

SpyRacing

Well-Known Member
I say keep it how it is in 2019 for future years, or your going to just see everyone go buy a 2.5l and call it a day and by the time you know it were going to be just like class 10 but with a 2.5l ecotec. The stock hp difference is quite large between the two motors stock at about 50hp difference and torque may even be the same difference correct me if im wrong since i have hardly seen any numbers just knowing a stock 2.4 pushes 170-175 hp and a 2.5 puts out 230. Just leave the rules how we decided it is the easiest way to keep everyone in line and competitive without everyone spending more money than they should. My 0.02 on the issue. For short I agree with zac.


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Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
My Mendeola Sequential doesn't make my car faster. It makes my car more reliable and heavier though. If it was a fortin 6 speed with no lift shift then it would be a little faster. And we are talking maybe 1%. I'll race a h patter any day but at the speeds the 5 cars go and how fast you have to drive to make it in the top 3 its a roll of the dice.

However, I'd gladly vote h pattern transmissions and stock engines for class 5 if you guys want to go back to that. My trans repair bills sucked big time though.
 
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